Why Was MAPP Gas Discontinued?

[dr_clyde]

I assume it has something to do with cost of production vs sales, as most things like this do.

Anyone know the real story?

The wikipedia article seems to lead the reader to think cost was a factor.

I have 3 or 4 cylinders of true MAPP gas in my cabinet, but when they're gone, I'm out.

I do use the Map-pro or whatever the current substitute is, but its definitely not as hot as the original.

I use oxy-acetylene for most things, but I do use a small plumbers torch for some things.

I'm just curious why nothing like it exists anymore. I would think there is still a market for it given how many yellow bottles are sold instead of pure propane.

 

[laser3kw]

I don't think it was
mapp gas link
whoops! excuse me, I didn't read the part about Mapp-pro.
Mapp was methylacetylene-propadiene propane.
Mapp pro is just propylene/ propane.
Wiki about Mapp

 

[dnschmidt]

There was only one plant in the country the produced it which was owned by BOC. (British Oxygen Company). This plant was shut down and there are no other sources.

 

[dr_clyde]

There was only one plant in the country the produced it which was owned by BOC. (British Oxygen Company). This plant was shut down and there are no other sources.

Yeah, but why has no one else made something similar? Or bought the patent or something?

Surely there was enough sales to justify a competitor or someone else making and selling something similar.

 

[Git]

There was also an 'alleged' defect/issue with the neck of the cylinder which attracted attorneys and....

 

[metaldad]

same cylinder - used for mapp, mapp pro, propane?

 

[The Cobbler]

wasn't there something about mapp gas used a by product of something else, that is no longer produced?

 

[scubadoober]

History is full of safer, better, and cheaper alternatives to acetylene that are no longer with us. Until we shake our unfounded obsession with acetylene the future will be littered with them as well.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

Damn it, I bought a case over ten years ago and only have 2 1/2 cylinders left, guess I'll have to keep my eyes peeled at garage sales.

 

[Engineer61]

History is full of safer, better, and cheaper alternatives to acetylene that are no longer with us. Until we shake our unfounded obsession with acetylene the future will be littered with them as well.

Questionable if MAPP gas is safer than acetylene - it's toxic when breathed at much lower concentrations than acetylene. Not as explosive etc, but it is much more toxic which may be why no one wants to make it available again.

 

[ddawg16]

Don't worry about it.....it won't be long before the CO2 is produces will put it on the 'bad stuff' list....

On a more serious note....while I'm still a fan of copper piping....I suspect PEX will negate the need.......until we find out PEX causes cancer.....(I have no doubt someone is feeding mice on a 100% diet of the stuff)

 

[neophyte]

Don't worry about it.....it won't be long before the CO2 is produces will put it on the 'bad stuff' list....

On a more serious note....while I'm still a fan of copper piping....I suspect PEX will negate the need.......until we find out PEX causes cancer.....(I have no doubt someone is feeding mice on a 100% diet of the stuff)

There’s copper piping and plumbing from the Roman period that is still functional, or which can be made functional with easy repairs.
PEX tubing, or at least most tupes, can be damaged by UV light exposure, if exposed gor more than a month.
While most intelligent plumbers, contractors, and home inspectors will kniw of the UV issue, many homeowners and do it yourselfers will not, which will likely lead to PEX plumbing being left exposed causing the PEX to fail.
I’ve also seen PEX left exposed on jobsites, and while the exposure might not be enough to cause issues in most cases, I suspect there will be PEX installed in building that will have had way too much UV exposure, causing the PEX to fail within the walls eventually.
Copper is also pretty much completely recyclable.

 

[HenryAZ]

...until we find out PEX causes cancer

Doesn't PEX (and just about everything else) already case cancer in California?

 

[pi_guy]

Doesn't PEX (and just about everything else) already case cancer in California?

I was in Ca and there were garages in the basement of the lodge we were staying at.
The sign said that prolong exposure to the fumes and chemicals generated in the garage can cause cancer so limit your time in the garage.

had a giggle over that one

 

[Farmall450]

I was in Ca and there were garages in the basement of the lodge we were staying at.
The sign said that prolong exposure to the fumes and chemicals generated in the garage can cause cancer so limit your time in the garage.

had a giggle over that one

Lol, gotta love CA. Probably should limit your time in your car, too.

 

[ddawg16]

Lol, gotta love CA. Probably should limit your time in your car, too.

Naw....I just limit my time with idiots.

I'm still at a loss as to why those signs....

 

[Dave455]

Don’t use it myself, but I seem to remember hearing that there had been problems with the original MAPP - something about the hydrogen being absorbed during welding causing brittle welds, and the associated liability issues. ?

 

[Farmall450]

Naw....I just limit my time with idiots.

I'm still at a loss as to why those signs....

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[theoldwizard1]

On a more serious note....while I'm still a fan of copper piping...

After DECADES of lead based solder, they now say it "might" cause lead poisoning !

 

[theoldwizard1]

Don’t use it myself, but I seem to remember hearing that there had been problems with the original MAPP - something about the hydrogen being absorbed during welding causing brittle welds, and the associated liability issues. ?

MAPP, by itself, was never hot enough to weld with. It was great for brazing copper, especially in HVAC application. The copper tubing used in HVAC is heavier walled (Type K). Most HVAC guys now use acetylene.

 

[BukitCase]

"Until we shake our unfounded obsession with acetylene" -

You mean the "un-founded" fact that acetylene is the ONLY fuel gas that generates its own SHIELDING for welding? ...Steve

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ty-knowledge&usg=AOvVaw36l5zY1CKsr2_pzoR_Y0l_

 

[6PTsocket]

I was in Ca and there were garages in the basement of the lodge we were staying at.

The sign said that prolong exposure to the fumes and chemicals generated in the garage can cause cancer so limit your time in the garage.



had a giggle over that one

I saw a prop 65 warning on a stainless steel bolt. Couldn't figure that one out. I guess eating them is not healthy.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[xjfish]

Great thread. I really liked MAPP for handy heating rusty fastners... The slightly hotter heat output usually was helpful. I'm out of it now. Sad to hear future is questionable or nonexistent.

 

[scissorman]

I had heard the only factory in the world that produced MAPP gas had burned down and that's why no more true MAPP gas.

 

[f121]

Is there much difference between mapp and map/pro? I've been using the stuff on yellow cylinders for years, plumbing, burning out bushes, lighting the grill.

 

[Bills Tools]

Just use acetylene mc tank and just keep getting the tank filled. Acetylene is all that is used in HVAC these days. I used map when starting but acetylene is just better for brazing


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[Skin]

I saw a prop 65 warning on a stainless steel bolt. Couldn't figure that one out.

Don't try understand it or you'll go as nuts as the people in CalEPA. I don't know if it was a joke but someone posted a picture that they even have prop65 on potted trees.

 

[Git]

Is there much difference between mapp and map/pro? I've been using the stuff on yellow cylinders for years, plumbing, burning out bushes, lighting the grill.

Quite a bit different

Acetylyne..@ 5,720 degrees Fahrenheit
MAPP........@ 5,300 degrees Fahrenheit
Map Pro....@ 3,730 degrees Fahrenheit
Propane....@ 3,600 degrees Fahrenheit

 

[Git]

You need to add Oxygen to Map Pro to get the temp up. A rig like this kicks it back up to where MAPP used to be

 

[noahwins]

After DECADES of lead based solder, they now say it "might" cause lead poisoning !

It certainly does. Part of the reason why older generations are more violent and stupid than the ones who came of age after lead abatement, i.e. some of the Millennials and all of Gen Z. Industrial manufacturers have known about lead poisoning since tetraethyl lead was developed for gasoline and denied, denied, denied, just like the tobacco and asbestos companies and lung cancer. The nickname for the Standard Oil plant where TEL was manufactured was the Looney Gas Building because workers came out punch drunk and retarded.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/lead-poisoning-201602029120

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-lead-crime-roundup-for-2018/

https://www.wired.com/2013/01/looney-gas-and-lead-poisoning-a-short-sad-history/

It's dangerous, toxic **** and I'm glad California mandated P65 warning stickers and has banned lead bullets and weights from poisoning the environment and waterways.

 

[danski0224]

I'm still at a loss as to why those signs....

The Cliff Notes version:

Lawyers suing companies that make stuff that ends up in California, without the Prop 65 warning. It's cheaper to label EVERYTHING rather than not label the one thing that makes it into California, creating a lawsuit for improper labeling.

Prop 65 originally was created for good intentions, but lawyers bastardized it.

 

[danski0224]

It certainly does. Part of the reason why older generations are more violent and stupid than the ones who came of age after lead abatement, i.e. some of the Millennials and all of Gen Z. Industrial manufacturers have known about lead poisoning since tetraethyl lead was developed for gasoline and denied, denied, denied, just like the tobacco and asbestos companies and lung cancer. The nickname for the Standard Oil plant where TEL was manufactured was the Looney Gas Building because workers came out punch drunk and retarded.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/lead-poisoning-201602029120

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-lead-crime-roundup-for-2018/

https://www.wired.com/2013/01/looney-gas-and-lead-poisoning-a-short-sad-history/

It's dangerous, toxic **** and I'm glad California mandated P65 warning stickers and has banned lead bullets and weights from poisoning the environment and waterways.

Yup.

Relatives lost a toddler to lead poisoning in the 1960's, chewing windowsills.

Even then, the signs of lead poisoning were not well recognized and by the time a medical professional put 2 and 2 together, it was too late.

This is why I don't understand why a contractor can be crucified for not following the EPA RRP regulations and a homeowner can essentially do whatever he or she wants to and poison the environment.

 

[manwithtools]

Lol, gotta love CA. Probably should limit your time in your car, too.

Yep, actual sign from a rental car in CA a couple of months back:

 

[theoldwizard1]

After DECADES of lead based solder, they now say it "might" cause lead poisoning !

It certainly does.
.
.
.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/lead-poisoning-201602029120

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-lead-crime-roundup-for-2018/

https://www.wired.com/2013/01/looney-gas-and-lead-poisoning-a-short-sad-history/

NONE of those references have to do with lead poisoning caused by copper piping soldered with tin/lead solder !

Yes, getting lead "into your body" is bad. Tin/lead solder on copper pipes has a very low probability of cause lead poisoning !

 

[sz0k30]

& most of these posts don't have anything to do with the original question.

 

[laser3kw]

& most of these posts don't have anything to do with the original question.

did you hear Boyd Coddington died?

 

[ken w.]

This ***** because I just picked up a mini torch outfit off CL that's still unused that is MAPP / oxy in the red carry case. It has gauges and a brazing / cutting tips. I only have 2 MAPP cylinders .

 

[MoonRise]

Why no more MAPP?

The one and ONLY factory/producer in North America stopped making in 2008.

Why?

IIRC, there was a fire at the plant.

And MAPP was mostly used for 'small scale' users. Large industrial users use/used either oxy-acetylene or oxy-propane. Smaller users (plumbers and HVAC folks) used either air-propane or air-acetylene, even though air-MAPP sometimes was used (and even less often oxy-MAPP).

Oxy-propylene never really got large market share AFAIK.

So, damaged factory and not huge demand, so the company decided to just stop production (someone probably did a calculation on payback time to recover the costs to rebuild the plant and decided/found that it was not really economically feasible).

Oxy-acet flame temp ~5720 F and gives a 'target heat' of ~4700 F

Oxy-MAPP flame temp ~5340 F

Oxy-propylene flame temp ~5240 F

Oxy-propane flame temp ~5130 F

Air-acetylene 'target' temp ~2700 F

Air-propylene 'target' temp ~2150 F

Air-propane flame temp ~2600 F and 'target' temp ~1750 F

And the MAP/Pro stuff is mostly propylene with some propane in there.

Small 1 pound cylinder prices that I see for the MAP/Pro stuff is about 3-4x higher than plain propane 1 pound cylinders. Not really worth it IMHO for the 100 F increase for oxy-MAP compared to oxy-propane.

 

[theoldwizard1]

IIRC, there was a fire at the plant.

I heard that rumor also. The decided not to rebuild the equipment.

 

[scooby074]

Mapp was a proprietary blend that was made at a single refinery in Quebec before it was out of production. That refinery wasnt profitable and was closed up. Now competitor companies are offering similar products with similar sounding names.

Thats about it. I still have a couple bottles of old MAPP but save them for "special" use away from the shop.. O/A or O/Propane are what usually gets heating duties in my shop.

Instead of searching for old MAPP, youd be further ahead getting a better torch head. I like the Bernzomatic TS8000 and TS4000. You can probably get better heating with regular propane and a TS4000 head than new "MAPP" in a ****** head.