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HVAC questions for installers

lilcuda

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I want to get our furnace replaced and add A/C this year. In our previous house, I had a new furnace and A/C added and the project only turned out so-so. I think I just didn't know the right questions to ask when talking with contractors. So I'm looking for input on what questions to ask and what to look out for when interviewing contractors.

Thanks in advance for any input.
 
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Bigblockyeti

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See if/how much of the existing duct work will be reused & how it will be sealed up. Will they clean the reused ducts. What quality of air filter (normal 1" or a thick washable) will be used? There's a sliding ROI on increasing SEER values vs. expected life, when minor problems arise on complicated equipment out of warranty. How well supported is the brand they normally install, what's their installation warranty it can be an order of magnitude more $$ to fix. Do you know where you want the condenser? Having them choose might benefit them more than you.
 

justinjoyal

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Quebec
Ask for:

- a load calculation
- duct measurements vs system capacity = adequate ?
- do they flow nitrogen while brazing ?
- do they perform a nitrogen leak test + proper vacuum with a micron gauge ?
- proper commissioning of the unit with a report after completion

Make sure you get a good filter. 4in pleated, MERV 8 or higher, something along those lines.

That's a start.
 
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lilcuda

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See if/how much of the existing duct work will be reused & how it will be sealed up. Will they clean the reused ducts. What quality of air filter (normal 1" or a thick washable) will be used? There's a sliding ROI on increasing SEER values vs. expected life, when minor problems arise on complicated equipment out of warranty. How well supported is the brand they normally install, what's their installation warranty it can be an order of magnitude more $$ to fix. Do you know where you want the condenser? Having them choose might benefit them more than you.

Probably need most if not all of the ductwork replaced. Not sure. The house currently doesn't have A/C, so the ducting might not be sufficient.

I'm limited on where I can put the condenser. My yard has very small setbacks on the sides. Probably going to have to get on of those slim units. I might be able to have them put it at the front of the house under a tree. I really don't want it baking in the sun.
 
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lilcuda

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Ask for:

- a load calculation
- duct measurements vs system capacity = adequate ?
- do they flow nitrogen while brazing ?
- do they perform a nitrogen leak test + proper vacuum with a micron gauge ?
- proper commissioning of the unit with a report after completion

Make sure you get a good filter. 4in pleated, MERV 8 or higher, something along those lines.

That's a start.

What would they be brazing?

Had to look up what MERV stands for. Makes sense now.
 

Yankeefarmer

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What was it about the end result that caused you to view it as only so-so? That will tell you what aspects of the system design/performance are important to you.
 

LS6 Tommy

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Ask for:

- a load calculation
- duct measurements vs system capacity = adequate ?
- do they flow nitrogen while brazing ?
- do they perform a nitrogen leak test + proper vacuum with a micron gauge ?
- proper commissioning of the unit with a report after completion

Make sure you get a good filter. 4in pleated, MERV 8 or higher, something along those lines.

That's a start.

X2.

Tommy
 
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lilcuda

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What was it about the end result that caused you to view it as only so-so? That will tell you what aspects of the system design/performance are important to you.

Overall poor workmanship, noisy when it ran, wrecked my attic insulation during the install. It did heat and cool the house, though.
 
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brewchief

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What are you looking for? New basic equipment? The highest efficiency possible?
Does location demand a quieter A/C then normal? Is comfort a major concern? Does the house currently heat/cool evenly or do some rooms have large temp differences?

All of that info helps decide whether a single stage, two stage or modulating furnace and A/C is best, ideally you know pretty much what you need so that you can get quotes on the same type of equipment from each company. Apples to Apples instead of apples to pineapples.

Generally I would recommend to avoid the guys selling at the big box stores, they have to kick a portion of the job up to the store so you will normally pay more or pay the same and get lesser quality.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
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lilcuda

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What are you looking for? New basic equipment? The highest efficiency possible?
Does location demand a quieter A/C then normal? Is comfort a major concern? Does the house currently heat/cool evenly or do some rooms have large temp differences?

All of that info helps decide whether a single stage, two stage or modulating furnace and A/C is best, ideally you know pretty much what you need so that you can get quotes on the same type of equipment from each company. Apples to Apples instead of apples to pineapples.

Generally I would recommend to avoid the guys selling at the big box stores, they have to kick a portion of the job up to the store so you will normally pay more or pay the same and get lesser quality.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

I want higher efficiency, but not sure I can afford the highest efficiency equipment. Existing furnace is an older Lennox. No A/C currently.

I want reasonably quiet equipment. If it has to be near the bedrooms, I want it to be very quiet.

Comfort is a big concern. House is uncomfortably cold in the winter with the bedroom areas being the coldest. In the summer, the master bedroom is very hot (faces southwest) and is uncomfortable for sleeping.

House is insulated, but needs more in the attic.

I avoid big box stores as a general rule. I have a couple of contractors in mind, but need to know what to ask.
 

Yankeefarmer

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Connecticut
...

I want reasonably quiet equipment. If it has to be near the bedrooms, I want it to be very quiet.

Comfort is a big concern. House is uncomfortably cold in the winter with the bedroom areas being the coldest. In the summer, the master bedroom is very hot (faces southwest) and is uncomfortable for sleeping.

Make sure to discuss these specific concerns with each bidder and ask how they propose to address them. You may be best served by separate zones for different areas of your house based on heating and cooling demands.
 

danski0224

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Near Naperville, IL
Ask for:

- a load calculation
- duct measurements vs system capacity = adequate ?
- do they flow nitrogen while brazing ?
- do they perform a nitrogen leak test + proper vacuum with a micron gauge ?
- proper commissioning of the unit with a report after completion

Make sure you get a good filter. 4in pleated, MERV 8 or higher, something along those lines.

That's a start.


I want higher efficiency, but not sure I can afford the highest efficiency equipment. Existing furnace is an older Lennox. No A/C currently.

I want reasonably quiet equipment. If it has to be near the bedrooms, I want it to be very quiet.

Comfort is a big concern. House is uncomfortably cold in the winter with the bedroom areas being the coldest. In the summer, the master bedroom is very hot (faces southwest) and is uncomfortable for sleeping.

House is insulated, but needs more in the attic.

I avoid big box stores as a general rule. I have a couple of contractors in mind, but need to know what to ask.

I would take these two blocks of information and start here.

A load calculation is a Manual J. This needs to be room-by-room to size the ductwork.

I would also add the requirement for a Manual D and a Manual S.

Manual D sizes the ductwork and Manual S sizes the equipment. There are independent consultants that will do this work for you, for a fee. In my opinion, it would be beneficial for you to pay to have this done, and provide the information to the contractor as a basis for comparable bids. There are people that provide these services and do not perform installations, so there won't be a conflict of interest. You will have to provide drawings of your home and construction information.

Overall poor workmanship, noisy when it ran, wrecked my attic insulation during the install. It did heat and cool the house, though.

Poor workmanship: ask to see pictures of installations.

Noisy: Ductwork can be well sealed and not flow air well at all; some of this is due to "cap and tap" duct practices and undersized ductwork. Low end (builder's grade) equipment is usually noisier than upper tier models- no matter what the brand is.

Wrecked attic insulation: Impossible to avoid if one chooses to put ductwork and equipment up there. The ductwork should be within the conditioned space envelope. Attic ductwork is a poor choice and should be avoided at all costs. Ductwork outside of the conditioned space may trigger additional testing requirements (Residential Energy Code) if this is a permit job. Think about this: the attic can easily exceed 140 degrees in the summer, and there is ~55 degree air in that duct (at the air handler- higher temperature at the registers). The building requires say R-40 but the ductwork may be lucky to get R-8. It makes no sense at all.

A mini-split system with a single condenser and multiple heads will provide the highest efficiency, but the equipment and maintenance costs will be high.

A high-SEER split system requires proper airflow to attain those SEER numbers.

The air filter needs to be designed into the system.

Traditional residential split system fans have a 0.5" of water column spec for total external static pressure. That is the resistance to airflow generated by the (wet) AC evap coil, air filter(s), all ductwork and registers/grilles. It isn't a lot to work with, and this is where coil selection, filter selection and ductwork airflow/design will make or break the system.
 
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lilcuda

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I would take these two blocks of information and start here.

A load calculation is a Manual J. This needs to be room-by-room to size the ductwork.

I would also add the requirement for a Manual D and a Manual S.

Manual D sizes the ductwork and Manual S sizes the equipment. There are independent consultants that will do this work for you, for a fee. In my opinion, it would be beneficial for you to pay to have this done, and provide the information to the contractor as a basis for comparable bids. There are people that provide these services and do not perform installations, so there won't be a conflict of interest. You will have to provide drawings of your home and construction information.

So would an independent home energy auditor do this? What about a HERS rater?

Thanks for your insights, BTW.
 

danski0224

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Near Naperville, IL
So would an independent home energy auditor do this? What about a HERS rater?

Some of them might.

If there are other efficiency type issues with the building that you are trying to address, then those people would be the ones to call.

You would have to ask if HVAC (Manuals D,J and S) are within their scope of work... and then do your due diligence in choosing.
 

Jackfre

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Dec 26, 2010
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N CA
The current Code requires that duct leakage be 6% or less. If you need new ductwork, which you suspect is likely, you will be spending a pile of dough on it. Go ahead with your conventional system design and quotes, but by all means look into the mini split technologies that are available. Ask your conventional have contractors about mini splits, but also look at Fujitsu and Mitsubishi specialists. You have not described the lay-out of your home, but the H&C performance and efficiency of mini-splits is outstanding, especially in our climate. I pulled the conventional system in my home and went mini-splits and could not be happier.
 
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lilcuda

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The current Code requires that duct leakage be 6% or less. If you need new ductwork, which you suspect is likely, you will be spending a pile of dough on it. Go ahead with your conventional system design and quotes, but by all means look into the mini split technologies that are available. Ask your conventional have contractors about mini splits, but also look at Fujitsu and Mitsubishi specialists. You have not described the lay-out of your home, but the H&C performance and efficiency of mini-splits is outstanding, especially in our climate. I pulled the conventional system in my home and went mini-splits and could not be happier.

The house is a 2500 sq ft ranch style. Furnace is in a closet accessed from the back patio, return ducts in attic, heat ducting in crawlspace. Ducts are old, most likely original to the house. House was built in 1966.

I Googled mini splits and saw what the units look like. So do you get one for each room? What about the equipment outside? 1 for 1, or can you run more than one of those units off one outdoor unit? Forgive me, I don't know the proper terminology.
 

Ohmthis

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Outside of Louisville KY
There are a lot of good suggestions here. Also ask about what type of ducting they plan to install, all metal, metal with flex branches, duct board and flex, all flex. They are not created equal. They can work, but they need to be designed correctly to perform. The suggestion to have an outside consultant is a good one. There may be places in your area that will come to your house and take the time to correctly go over it all.
 

Jackfre

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Sorry for the late reply, but yes you can run multi headed units. Read more of the threads here. There is a lot of info. Have you contacted nay of the mini-split installers. Check the manuf web-sites for dealer locators. Stay with the major brands.
 
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LeoW

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Henderson
All standard: warranty, power, compatibility with the room, maintenance of equipment. But the experts always should indicate important details, not waiting for your questions.
 

jimmiller2

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Oct 29, 2009
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Tennessee
I want to get our furnace replaced and add A/C this year. In our previous house, I had a new furnace and A/C added and the project only turned out so-so. I think I just didn't know the right questions to ask when talking with contractors. So I'm looking for input on what questions to ask and what to look out for when interviewing contractors.

Thanks in advance for any input.
Like previously mentioned it is best to have ductwork in heated space. I built a new small house two years ago and used commercial spiral duct work that has rubber orings to seal. No duct tape required. 1200 sq foot house super insulated I use a 1 1/2 ton heat pump and average $80 per month electric cost for entire all electric house.
 

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aunsafe2015

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Like previously mentioned it is best to have ductwork in heated space. I built a new small house two years ago and used commercial spiral duct work that has rubber orings to seal. No duct tape required. 1200 sq foot house super insulated I use a 1 1/2 ton heat pump and average $80 per month electric cost for entire all electric house.
Hah that's awesome. My wife would never let me do that though. Can you link to the spiral duct you used? I read that snap lock rigid round, sealed at the seam, is tighter than most serial because allegedly spiral leaks around the actual spiral. Do you know if that's true? I guess in your case a little leakage would be mostly irrelevant since it's all in conditioned space anyways.
 

jimmiller2

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My duct work is made by a company in Trenton Tennessee. It is owned by an engineer and is patented (called Spiramere). It is not overly expensive but very high quality. I think l paid about 600 for entire lot. We actually like the way it looks but we have 10 foot ceilings which gives plenty of room for it. Much of it is hidden by closets.
 

jimmiller2

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I was warned about possible condensation on the pipe from various people but it has never been a problem. Never even a hint of condensation. The metal is heavy 24 gauge and definitely no leaks in spirals.
 

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danski0224

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I read that snap lock rigid round, sealed at the seam, is tighter than most serial because allegedly spiral leaks around the actual spiral. Do you know if that's true? I guess in your case a little leakage would be mostly irrelevant since it's all in conditioned space anyways.

Yes, spiral duct can leak at the seam.

It is probably related to how well the machine making it is maintained and adjusted.

There are a few manufacturers of snap lock pipe that have sealant already applied in the seam and one also has it inside the pipe at the female end. The crimped end has a recess that mates to it. More expensive to buy, but it saves labor applying the sealant (and it looks nicer without the sealant on the outside).

Spiral pipe can be aesthetically pleasing in an exposed installation and snap lock pipe is not, and much more difficult to assemble long lengths and have it come out nice and straight.

The "leakage into conditioned space is OK" is not OK because the leakage is uncontrolled, and it takes away from the volume of air being delivered elsewhere.
 

jimmiller2

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That isn't heavy at all.

On the other hand, 16 gauge spiral is something else.
Mine could be 22 versus 24 but in any case very rigid in its final form
I used a cut off wheel to cut the holes for the take offs and then SS pop rivets
To attach them. No cement of any kind. The male ends had grooves for large
O-rings which slid into the pipe.
 
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lilcuda

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Like previously mentioned it is best to have ductwork in heated space. I built a new small house two years ago and used commercial spiral duct work that has rubber orings to seal. No duct tape required. 1200 sq foot house super insulated I use a 1 1/2 ton heat pump and average $80 per month electric cost for entire all electric house.

Ductwork is going to be in the crawlspace where the existing ductwork is (other than the return ducts, they are in attic). Not reinventing the wheel here. Can't afford to.
 
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lilcuda

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Haven't had a chance to go any further with this yet. Been too busy with many other things. Hopefully, I'll get back on track shortly and report back what I end up doing. Thanks for the input so far. Didn't want to leave this thread open ended.
 
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lilcuda

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Finally revisiting this over a year later. I had an energy assessment done in January this year. Massive duct leakage was found, like 40%. One of the ducts in the attic is misaligned, probably due to work done in the attic by hacks hired by the previous owner.

Anyway, I've gotten two bids so far and have one more contractor coming tomorrow.

The two bids I have so far are proposing very different sized AC units. One proposes a 3.5 ton and the other proposes a 5 ton. Why would there be such a discrepancy? The guy proposing the 5 ton also says that all of our registers are too small, while the other guy says only the furthest from the furnace needs to be enlarged.

The more you dig into this stuff, the more questions you have...
 

danski0224

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Which one did the load calculation and checked the duct sizing?

A 5 ton unit connected to crappy or undersized ductwork may only yield 3.5 tons of cooling, so you might be good either way...

:lol_hitti
 

Innovate1

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As much as bigger generally sounds better you don't want to oversize your AC. You probably don't have big humidity issues there (at least not like the midwest) but an oversize AC won't remove humidity well and you will have a cold but damp space.
 
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lilcuda

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Which one did the load calculation and checked the duct sizing?

A 5 ton unit connected to crappy or undersized ductwork may only yield 3.5 tons of cooling, so you might be good either way...

:lol_hitti

The contractor that bid the 3.5 ton referenced a load calculation. The one bidding the 5 ton did not reference a load calculation. The "5 ton guy" did talk about how all of the registers need to be enlarged.
 
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lilcuda

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As much as bigger generally sounds better you don't want to oversize your AC. You probably don't have big humidity issues there (at least not like the midwest) but an oversize AC won't remove humidity well and you will have a cold but damp space.

That's what I have heard before as well. Yes, not much humidity here for the most part.
 

danski0224

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Well, I'd choose the load calc contractor over the let's guess contractor...

I thought there were a bunch of hoops to jump through over in California for this type of job. I thought that would have weeded out the hacks... unless it's a no permit job.
 

Rusty Fords

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The contractor that bid the 3.5 ton referenced a load calculation. The one bidding the 5 ton did not reference a load calculation. The "5 ton guy" did talk about how all of the registers need to be enlarged.

Hold on here did he measure each room (wxdxh) and the windows all this is required to do a proper Manual J calculation or did he measure the size of the duct work? I would ask to visually see a room by room calculation. Good old boy rule of thumb is not the proper way seen it before and competed for bids a few times where they did it the good old boy way.

If the guy is wanting to install a 5 ton and the existing duct work was designed for a 31/2 ton the registers and the duct work wouldn't be the right size.

Depending on where you are in the SF bay area you Humidity may not be that bad I was there (South SF) all last summer and other then a hand full of days I was very comfortable most of the summer inside or out.

Not an installer, but recently we replaced our 17 year old HVAC system. Have you considered a variable speed system versus a single speed? Does noise matter? How about energy efficiency?

when the duct system is designed correctly the variable speed fan motors are nice and quiet as well as a saving on electrical. I would look into a Heat pump depending on your area they are cheaper to operate in the heating mode.
 
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