I just watched a youtube vid where they guy welded aluminum with a MIG welder without a spool gun. he said to use 5356 Aluminum Mig Welding Wire .030 and a .035 tip and 100% pure Argon gas. Anyone here ever try that. I have a screen door I want to restore. It would be great to be able to weld it as easy as steel. Right now I have 75/25 argon co2. How much more expensive is pure argon?
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Anyone ever MIG weld aluminum without a spool gun?
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joe_padavano
Well-known member
The spool gun is only used because pushing the soft aluminum filler wire through the MIG torch can be problematic. If you can get it to feed, there's noting magic about using a spool gun. Use the right gas.
How thick of material is the screen door made from? Is it a casting?
I've done it with my millermatic 210, not that bad on a full size machine with full size spools. Worst part (to me) is taking out the full spool of steel wire.
What machine do you have?
I've done it with my millermatic 210, not that bad on a full size machine with full size spools. Worst part (to me) is taking out the full spool of steel wire.
What machine do you have?
How thick of material is the screen door made from? Is it a casting?
I've done it with my millermatic 210, not that bad on a full size machine with full size spools. Worst part (to me) is taking out the full spool of steel wire.
What machine do you have?
I have the Lincoln 140C.
I have the Lincoln 140C.
Hire it done, you are going to have a heck of a time on that machine.
The problem you are going to run into.
This works best with a larger diameter wire.
It takes amps to run a larger diameter wire properly
Your 140, 110v machine does not have the amps to properly run the larger wire.
If I was you I would look at either hiring it out or buying the spool gun. Even then you don't have many amps to play with.
Again, how thick is the aluminum? Is it cast by chance?
If your only concern is the cost of the shielding gas, you are in for a real experience.
Hire it done, you are going to have a heck of a time on that machine.
The problem you are going to run into.
This works best with a larger diameter wire.
It takes amps to run a larger diameter wire properly
Your 140, 110v machine does not have the amps to properly run the larger wire.
If I was you I would look at either hiring it out or buying the spool gun. Even then you don't have many amps to play with.
Again, how thick is the aluminum? Is it cast by chance?
If your only concern is the cost of the shielding gas, you are in for a real experience.
no its just thin gage square tubing. .0465" thick The machine came with .025 tips and .035 tips so i already have the tips. I saw a spool of the .030 5356 Aluminum wire for $20
All I would really need yet is the pure Argon tank. A new screen door is over $100 and would have to be retrofitted to my old screened in porch and still will look like a new style door on an old screen porch. It would be nice if I could just tack up this old one and put it back on. Just wondering if anyone had done this before.
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no its just thin gage square tubing. .0465" thick The machine came with .025 tips and .035 tips so i already have the tips. I saw a spool of the .030 5356 Aluminum wire for $20
All I would really need yet is the pure Argon tank. A new screen door is over $100 and would have to be retrofitted to my old screened in porch and still will look like a new style door on an old screen porch. It would be nice if I could just tack up this old one and put it back on. Just wondering if anyone had done this before.
Hire someone to do it, with this being your first project, you are likely to end up making the door worse. If not, cut a bunch of coupons to practice on, starting with 1/8" and working your way down.
You are going to want a new, clean, gun liner as well.
Hire someone to do it, with this being your first project, you are likely to end up making the door worse. If not, cut a bunch of coupons to practice on, starting with 1/8" and working your way down.
You are going to want a new, clean, gun liner as well.
I was planning on practicing on some scrap pieces to dial in the particulars. I only wanted to know if its reasonable to do it.
Bigblue&Goldie
Well-known member
That is super thin to be welding with a mig.
Your biggest expense will be the argon tank (gas is the same cost as C25 around here, actually a few dollars cheaper than a mix gas). But if you can swing that or borrow a tank to run a test your 140C might be good enough to do some basic alum welding. Most 140 class welders did have the option of a spool gun so Aluminum welding is definitely possible.
For such thin metal you can also just do Alum brazing with the brazing rods from Harbor Freight or Amazon, you just heat up the part using a MAAP or propane torch (search youtube for how it's done).
For such thin metal you can also just do Alum brazing with the brazing rods from Harbor Freight or Amazon, you just heat up the part using a MAAP or propane torch (search youtube for how it's done).
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I repaired the screen door on my old Airstream with Hobart Aluminum brazing rods from HD, using a propane torch with the new imitation MAPP gas.
Secret is to get the base metal hot enough so it melts the rod instead of the flame melting it. Use a stainless brush before and during heating to remove all traces of oxidation. Keep dabbing the rod on the joint as you heat, when it melts, move quickly to prevent it from piling up and freezing.
Not hard to do when you get the hang of it. Practice and patience.
Secret is to get the base metal hot enough so it melts the rod instead of the flame melting it. Use a stainless brush before and during heating to remove all traces of oxidation. Keep dabbing the rod on the joint as you heat, when it melts, move quickly to prevent it from piling up and freezing.
Not hard to do when you get the hang of it. Practice and patience.
To MIG weld aluminum, you will need:
- pure argon as the shielding gas. Price is usually close to the price for C25 (which is 75% argon and 25% CO2). If you have to actually buy another cylinder, then that raises your cost compared to just 'filling' a cylinder.
- the aluminum welding 'kit' for your machine. That's usually ~$100 or so, and typically for the small Lincoln MIG machines includes a plastic gun liner (the existing coiled steel liner will chew up the softer aluminum filler wire and clog up fast, as well as smear oil onto the aluminum wire), some U-groove drive roller(s), some appropriately sized contact tips (aluminum expands much more than steel, and thus the 'normal' steel-sized contact tips will cause the aluminum wire to jam in the contact tip once it heats up as you are welding), and usually a 1 pound spool of 4043 aluminum welding wire.
But the 140C does NOT have an aluminum 'kit' available. It can use the Lincoln SG100 spool gun, plug-n-play, to weld aluminum.
tech note: 4043 and 5356 wire are NOT interchangeable. They are different alloys, and use slightly different welding parameters and not all 'small' welding machines (even name brand ones like Lincoln or Miller) can even run 5356 wire (they can't produce the correct volt-amp-WFS relationship).
5356 wire is a little bit stiffer than 4043 wire for the same diameter, but even so, trying to push 10+ feet a 0.030 aluminum wire through the gun cable is probably going to be rather frustrating. Small diameter aluminum wire through a steel gun liner? Even worse.
Either hire it out to a welder who has the proper 'tools' AND experience to weld that up, or you can spend at least $500 (about $250 for the spool gun and another $250 for an 80 ft3 cylinder of pure argon) and a bunch of time to practice welding aluminum. IMNSHO
- pure argon as the shielding gas. Price is usually close to the price for C25 (which is 75% argon and 25% CO2). If you have to actually buy another cylinder, then that raises your cost compared to just 'filling' a cylinder.
- the aluminum welding 'kit' for your machine. That's usually ~$100 or so, and typically for the small Lincoln MIG machines includes a plastic gun liner (the existing coiled steel liner will chew up the softer aluminum filler wire and clog up fast, as well as smear oil onto the aluminum wire), some U-groove drive roller(s), some appropriately sized contact tips (aluminum expands much more than steel, and thus the 'normal' steel-sized contact tips will cause the aluminum wire to jam in the contact tip once it heats up as you are welding), and usually a 1 pound spool of 4043 aluminum welding wire.
But the 140C does NOT have an aluminum 'kit' available. It can use the Lincoln SG100 spool gun, plug-n-play, to weld aluminum.
tech note: 4043 and 5356 wire are NOT interchangeable. They are different alloys, and use slightly different welding parameters and not all 'small' welding machines (even name brand ones like Lincoln or Miller) can even run 5356 wire (they can't produce the correct volt-amp-WFS relationship).
5356 wire is a little bit stiffer than 4043 wire for the same diameter, but even so, trying to push 10+ feet a 0.030 aluminum wire through the gun cable is probably going to be rather frustrating. Small diameter aluminum wire through a steel gun liner? Even worse.
Either hire it out to a welder who has the proper 'tools' AND experience to weld that up, or you can spend at least $500 (about $250 for the spool gun and another $250 for an 80 ft3 cylinder of pure argon) and a bunch of time to practice welding aluminum. IMNSHO
SlappyWhite
Well-known member
I would be worried about cross contamination when switching back and forth. From oxides left behind in the liner etc. Spool gun also prevents this.
strength_and_power
Well-known member
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Lots of good advice. If you don’t see yourself welding AL in the future, I would just take it to a weld shop and have them do it. Bring your hood and ask to watch.
Feeding AL wire through a whip instead of a spool gun may be more of a pain than it’s worth especially if your base skills are less than optimal
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Feeding AL wire through a whip instead of a spool gun may be more of a pain than it’s worth especially if your base skills are less than optimal
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I would be worried about cross contamination when switching back and forth. From oxides left behind in the liner etc. Spool gun also prevents this.
what problems does that cause?
koditten
Well-known member
There wouldn't be any. You would be using totally different whip liners.
bimmer1980
Well-known member
buy the new screen door......
I've done some tig and mig of aluminum welding. At 0.046" thick, you will just blow holes in it with the MIG. Moonrise or Dr Clyde might be able to mig that thin, but the rest of us would have a hard time.
If you had a TIG, you might be able to weld it after getting some practice.
I'm all for trying something new, but I generally like to have a good chance of success....
I've done some tig and mig of aluminum welding. At 0.046" thick, you will just blow holes in it with the MIG. Moonrise or Dr Clyde might be able to mig that thin, but the rest of us would have a hard time.
If you had a TIG, you might be able to weld it after getting some practice.
I'm all for trying something new, but I generally like to have a good chance of success....
I invested in the Teflon liner, argon, dedicated brush etc. using Lincoln 135 have had very marginal success over many projects. Seems the more I try to control the variables the worse my welds. Initially practiced making coupons and was impressed. After that, nothing I’d brag about.
dr_clyde
Well-known member
I wouldn't wire weld that. That's thin enough that even with the right tools you're asking for trouble.
I realize you are trying to save a buck by fixing it yourself, but I'm here to tell you you'll be money ahead by hiring this out. You're gonna have several hundred dollars into making your welder "ready" and even then, you're not really set up to do it right.
My experience is with aluminum MIG you're better off running a TIG machine on something less than 16ga, unless you really have it dialed. Aluminum runs hot.
I realize you are trying to save a buck by fixing it yourself, but I'm here to tell you you'll be money ahead by hiring this out. You're gonna have several hundred dollars into making your welder "ready" and even then, you're not really set up to do it right.
My experience is with aluminum MIG you're better off running a TIG machine on something less than 16ga, unless you really have it dialed. Aluminum runs hot.
Farmall450
Well-known member
Your biggest expense will be the argon tank (gas is the same cost as C25 around here, actually a few dollars cheaper than a mix gas). But if you can swing that or borrow a tank to run a test your 140C might be good enough to do some basic alum welding. Most 140 class welders did have the option of a spool gun so Aluminum welding is definitely possible.
For such thin metal you can also just do Alum brazing with the brazing rods from Harbor Freight or Amazon, you just heat up the part using a MAAP or propane torch (search youtube for how it's done).
Yeah, getting the welder set up for one job will cost more than a new (and not burnt through) door.
I wouldn't wire weld that. That's thin enough that even with the right tools you're asking for trouble.
I realize you are trying to save a buck by fixing it yourself, but I'm here to tell you you'll be money ahead by hiring this out. You're gonna have several hundred dollars into making your welder "ready" and even then, you're not really set up to do it right.
My experience is with aluminum MIG you're better off running a TIG machine on something less than 16ga, unless you really have it dialed. Aluminum runs hot.
how much do you think that will cost to hire that out? Normally when you buy the tools do the job it cost the same or a little more but then you keep the tools. When you hire a guy, you get the job done (hopefully) and you dont have the tools for next time and must pay him again and again. I didn't realize it was so difficult to weld a screen door. Maybe I will go the braze route as was suggested earlier.
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dr_clyde
Well-known member
how much do you think that will cost to hire that out?
That highly depends on what exactly you need done and where you take it.
A couple simple welds on a door, I would probably charge you $50.
If it's more involved, it may be $150-200.
I would be worried about cross contamination when switching back and forth. From oxides left behind in the liner etc. Spool gun also prevents this.
what problems would cross contamination cause if you use the same whip liner?
dr_clyde
Well-known member
It's not that it's exceptionally difficult, it's just not easy to do with a MIG welder if you've never done it before.
I typically don't do work like this unless it's for friends for this exact reason. A lot of people don't know what all is involved in aluminum welding, and therefore assume it's just like welding steel.
Most of this stuff it's more economical to just replace it. I can only spend an hour or so on a $100 door before you're better off buying a new door.
I typically don't do work like this unless it's for friends for this exact reason. A lot of people don't know what all is involved in aluminum welding, and therefore assume it's just like welding steel.
Most of this stuff it's more economical to just replace it. I can only spend an hour or so on a $100 door before you're better off buying a new door.
dr_clyde
Well-known member
what problems would cross contamination cause if you use the same whip liner?
It's not so much conaminarion as it is the friction left in the liner from the steel wire.
You will birdnest in a heartbeat of you run into any snags in the liner or gun. Even just not getting a good ground right away can cause a birdnest.
Bigblue&Goldie
Well-known member
It's not that it's exceptionally difficult, it's just not easy to do with a MIG welder if you've never done it before.
I typically don't do work like this unless it's for friends for this exact reason. A lot of people don't know what all is involved in aluminum welding, and therefore assume it's just like welding steel.
Most of this stuff it's more economical to just replace it. I can only spend an hour or so on a $100 door before you're better off buying a new door.
This post says it all. If dr_clyde wouldn't do it, I would reconsider.
It's not so much conaminarion as it is the friction left in the liner from the steel wire.
You will birdnest in a heartbeat of you run into any snags in the liner or gun. Even just not getting a good ground right away can cause a birdnest.
Even with the spoolgun Al birdnests or collet issues at a greater rate than steel setups.
My take on this using the TIG process would be the way to go.
Yeah, getting the welder set up for one job will cost more than a new (and not burnt through) door.
True, which is why I suggested the brazing option, simple and cheap.
However, for me it's always about possessing the ability/knowledge etc to do my own repairs vs. replacing or taking it to someone else. For me situations like this are opportunities to learn and invest in more tools for future needs. I'll admit I have several 'investments' that were a waste but sometimes experiences are experiments alone are worth it to me. Not everyone's like that and that's cool too, it's smarter to just pay someone to do the work sometimes and I've done that too.
It's not that it's exceptionally difficult, it's just not easy to do with a MIG welder if you've never done it before.
I typically don't do work like this unless it's for friends for this exact reason. A lot of people don't know what all is involved in aluminum welding, and therefore assume it's just like welding steel.
Most of this stuff it's more economical to just replace it. I can only spend an hour or so on a $100 door before you're better off buying a new door.
I did buy a new door but when I went to install it I see that its not a direct replacement and needs to be retrofitted which takes time and can be fubared easily also, and of course its not going to match the existing screen porch. So its not that siimple. When you buy the tools and learn how to do something its yours for a long time and theres a lot of value in that as well. Time goes by whether you are working on the door or sitting on the computer or watching TV or whatever other non work things we do. Plus its fun to do things right?
New liner never been used with anything else is recommended, along with keeping it as STRAIGHT as possible... Always PUSH alu, but if you can't you can't...
what do you mean always push aluminum? as opposed to what?
Bigblue&Goldie
Well-known member
I think you are missing the point that a bunch of very skilled welders are telling you; thin aluminum is VERY hard to mig weld without burning through. Doing it with improvised tools compounds the difficulty. Please don't take this as me being negative, but if you have to ask the difference between "push" and "pull" when welding, this definitely isn't a task you want to take on. I agree it's fun and fulfilling to learn how to do things, but we recognize you are about to spend a ton of money on something that will likely fail miserably. Without seeing what needs to be repaired, I'd attempt other methods of fixing it if at all possible (rivets, high strength epoxies, etc.). I can tell you I have a tig welder that could perform this task, but even with my experience level I'd look towards an alternate means of repair due to the thin (and likely low grade) aluminum.
dr_clyde
Well-known member
I did buy a new door but when I went to install it I see that its not a direct replacement and needs to be retrofitted which takes time and can be fubared easily also, and of course its not going to match the existing screen porch. So its not that siimple. When you buy the tools and learn how to do something its yours for a long time and theres a lot of value in that as well. Time goes by whether you are working on the door or sitting on the computer or watching TV or whatever other non work things we do. Plus its fun to do things right?
I admire the willingness to learn, and the arguments to buy tools can be valid.
However, to do this particular job correctly, you're looking at a chunk of change. The right way is with a TIG machine. If you insist on MIG, you would want a spool gun at the very least. You'll also need wire, aluminum sized tips, and a cylinder of argon. You're taking several hundred dollars for just the cylinder.
Your welder is not ideal for welding aluminum. It was not designed to work with aluminum wire. This puts you at a disadvantage before you even start. Plus the project you've chosen to learn on is deceptively difficult to do well.
If you want to learn to MIG aluminum, get a welder that was designed for it, and start with a project that lends itself to beginners.