Epoxy peeling on new floor

[sparkomatic]

We had a brand new garage slab installed in September 2015 and contractor, crew, everyone was made aware that the new slab was going to be treated with epoxy and that new pour should be left with a rough broom finish to accommodate. Slab was allowed to cure and epoxy finish applied after on untouched, unused, perfect floor. Just for reference, water/moisture not an issue, bone dry under and around, and moisture barrier put down before poured.

Unfortunately last year, roughly nine months ago (epoxy three years old), two areas of epoxy under the rear tires of one of our cars peeled off. Installer came out and repaired those areas a month ago and was perplexed on how/why it peeled off. Per my installer, the best guesstimate to date is that the broom finish wasn't sufficient for bonding - more on this later. Now, this morning, my wife was backing her car out and I just happened to be in the garage at the time and heard a crackle/rip sound and had her stop immediately in the driveway only to find that more epoxy has peeled off, this time under her passenger side front wheel, stuck to the tire. So, I'm posting to get some third party opinion on cause. The bottom line is that I didn't pay for a new slab and epoxy finish only to end up with an unreliable floor with repair patches after three years. My installer strongly suggested purchasing mats of some sort for the car to park on and to prevent any similar future issues. Again, I didn't have an epoxy coating put down on a new slab just to require me to park on rubber mats and to have patches/repairs made. From my perspective the entire floor needs to be removed and redone.

Thoughts?

 

[Jason B]

Honestly, this is why I went with VCT. In a previous house had epoxy and over time it always ends up peeling eventually, even friends of mine complain about theirs, all different contractors and 2 of my friends did themselves with stuff they knew was good. HOT tires can do weird things on epoxy. The day, the time, the humidity, the prep, the mix, everything has to be perfect that day to get a perfect install. It's just too risky.

VCT is cheap, will cost you much less, and can go right overtop that current floor with basically no prep at all! I've seen this stuff put overtop dusty basement floors and still sticks and looks great.

Have had mine over 12 years now.

 

[nikojo]

Likely bad prep. Broom finish is irrelevant. Has to do with microscopic 'pores' in the cement that need to be opened. Best is with moderate shot-peen, second best is with screening, worst is with acid. Actually worst is with nothing. When the cement cures it has a chemical reaction that occurs at microscopic level that forms a 'skin' at surface. This needs to be taken down for proper adhesion.

Don't blame the epoxy. Epoxy when done correctly is the best. The problem is to do it the best is not easy as a DIY or with most installers.

I've learned this lesson long ago.

Sorry this doesn't address your original question which is what to do now. But it's a good lesson to others.

 

[Jason B]

Very well put... I agree. Again, everything needs to be done perfect, but for a lot of guys they don't know if what they have now, existing surface, will work.

 

[Garage Flooring]

Looks to me like the broom finish came up with some of the coatings. Bad prep. Perhaps concrete issue

 

[Shea]

What did the installer do exactly to prep the concrete? Did he work on the assumption that the broom finish was all that is required?

 

[Abeo]

What did the installer do exactly to prep the concrete? Did he work on the assumption that the broom finish was all that is required?

My suspicion from looking at the photos is that no prep was done, and the epoxy is failing at a weak surface cream layer

 

[sparkomatic]

My suspicion from looking at the photos is that no prep was done, and the epoxy is failing at a weak surface cream layer

Wish I could recall, but after watching the slab replacement like a hawk since that was the major part of the equation, I was much more relaxed after the curing time ended and it was time for epoxy. In addition, the installer was also employed by the company that did the slab replacement, epoxy was a side/weekend job he has been doing for quite a long time so this, in theory, wasn't being done by someone with no first hand experience/knowledge. Not a guarantee, but...

My suspicion from looking at the photos is that no prep was done, and the epoxy is failing at a weak surface cream layer

Hence why I'm leaning towards completely redoing the floor.

Looks to me like the broom finish came up with some of the coatings. Bad prep. Perhaps concrete issue

What kind of concrete issue? Below are some more up close photos for your evaluation. First four are the slab, last three are bottom side of epoxy that came up.

 

[sparkomatic]

Here are some more up close photos of the underside of the epoxy that peeled off, it looks like it just separated and no concrete attached, no?

 

[FJ4FUN]

That floor should have been ground prior to coating. I hate to say it but it looks to me as though the only thing holding the existing epoxy down is gravity...
I would grind it up and start over or possibly explore the interlocking tile systems that some of the vendors here support?

Sorry that you are having to deal with this!

 

[tncatadjuster]

I would say lack of prep was the issue, I have never installed a floor on unprepared concrete. I'm thinking the slab can be prepared properly and if you install a proper epoxy coating it will last. Hot tire lift implies very poor bond.

Good Luck with your fix.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

That floor should have been diamond ground. Broom Swept Texture concrete is not a good candidate for epoxy. Hot Tire Lift is french for "Poor Prep"!

 

[Falcon67]

Same as above. I've coated two shop floors. Both times I asked for smooth, smooth as you can get. After cure, acid etch, dry, epoxy. No lifting even from warm racing slicks. Rubber from the race cars actually sticks to the coating.

 

[tncatadjuster]

Here are some more up close photos of the underside of the epoxy that peeled off, it looks like it just separated and no concrete attached, no?

Your concrete looks fine. The epoxy simply failed at the bond line, not above or below. It formed a perfect inverse of the profile. Grind it or shotblast and install a new coating. Getting the existing coating off is always a lot of work.

Good luck.

 

[sparkomatic]

Your concrete looks fine. The epoxy simply failed at the bond line, not above or below. It formed a perfect inverse of the profile.

Following this hypothetical, what would have been the cause for the epoxy failing to bond? Bad product or bad application/installation?

Grind it or shotblast and install a new coating. Getting the existing coating off is always a lot of work.

Yes, it is a lot of work, hence why for the first two locations under the rear tires I allowed the epoxy to be repaired, this time that just isn't an option. I don't want to live with a damaged floor for months at a time, only waiting for it to happen again, and again, and again.

 

[Jason B]

If that was mine, I'd VCT right overtop. Done and done.

 

[FJ4FUN]

I can't comment on the quality of the material used and can only offer recommendations as to primer/body coat epoxy coatings such as Wolverine Coatings product. Couple of things wrong with the existing slab finish; 1. the pores need to be opened up to allow the prime coat to absorb into the concrete and effectively establish roots into the surface. This is what eliminates the most common cause for "hot tire lift" 2. the surface is too rough / irregular and would require additional primer/body coat to ensure correct encapsulation and fill.
Diamond grinding is the way to go, it's a bit more work cutting through an exiting coating but the key is to locate the proper equipment i.e. proper HEPA dust extraction. Fortunately this type of EQ is becoming more and more common at quality tool rental yards. We do not recommend shot blasting for the average DIYr. Similar to a broom finish the surface topography is too rough and requires more material to get correct coverage.

 

[Cairo94507]

This is exactly why I went with Porcelain Tile. I have never ever seen an epoxy floor hold up to use. I am sorry you are going through this as it seems you were clear to the contractor from the beginning.

 

[oldguyfl1]

I ground mine and just applied the primer, tomorrow is the coating day, will let you know how it goes.

 

[SGKent]

This is exactly why I went with Porcelain Tile. I have never ever seen an epoxy floor hold up to use. I am sorry you are going through this as it seems you were clear to the contractor from the beginning.

how does the porcelain tile hold up to dropped tools?

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

A broom swept surface is not a prepared surface. Just because you have hills and valleys does not afford you any more adhesion than a flat, unprepared surface. You need to diamond grind that surface to achieve a good bond. Diamond grinding opens the pores! And no, acid etching in your case is not an option, especially since you coated it. Go get the grinder and get it over with.



Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal

 

[Armorpoxy]

Broom finish is not the ideal surface for epoxy. Since it is an 'uneven' surface the tires sit on the 'ridges' as the epoxy is not as thick on the ridges, and it's much thicker in the 'valleys'. You can see the thickness differences in the photos.

Even if the floor was ground, a grinder since it moves horizontally can only grind the 'top's of the surface and the valleys get zero prep.

This floor should have been ground smoother in our opinion, we would not have coated this with that type of finish for exactly this potential problem.

 

[Jack Olsen]

how does the porcelain tile hold up to dropped tools?

How about rolling an engine over it on top of a steel-wheeled transmission jack? Or sliding 800-lb steel cabinets over it?

I don't know about porcelain, since I only have cheap ceramic, which is not as strong as porcelain. But I've dropped tools, rolled engines and pushed cabinets over my tiles.

And I can spill a gallon of acetone or chemical stripper on it and leave for the weekend and still have no mark.

This is PEI 4 rated ceramic and a 4-lb sledge hammer. I paid .59/sf



Click on the image for the video.

 

[Angelfire]

How about rolling an engine over it on top of a steel-wheeled transmission jack? Or sliding 800-lb steel cabinets over it?

I don't know about porcelain, since I only have cheap ceramic, which is not as strong as porcelain. But I've dropped tools, rolled engines and pushed cabinets over my tiles.

And I can spill a gallon of acetone or chemical stripper on it and leave for the weekend and still have no mark.

This is PEI 4 rated ceramic and a 4-lb sledge hammer. I paid .59/sf



Click on the image for the video.

I went with porcelain. Your video helped sell me! While I'm probably still babying it, I have dropped a pretty heavy driveshaft on it, dropped a chunk of granite on it (the granite shattered), and spilled stuff on it.....not a scratch on the porcelain and spills wipe right up. So glad I went this route (well, except the knees weren't too happy!). Hijack off.....
Cheers.

 

[BBQBOB]

Agree with the others, poor prep yielded poor results. The concreted needed to be etched before the epoxy could adhere to the surface. I am not a garage flooring pro, but applied an epoxy coat to my garage last year and researched the hell out of it. Granted I started with a 20 y/o floor with oil stains and **** on top of it, but I pressure washed it countless times, etched the floor with muriatic acid 2x and ensured moisture was not an issue.

That said, my floor is only 1 y/o but is still holding up strong. From what I researched etching (diamond grinding, acid, etc) is key for proper adhesion.

From the pics and what you are describing, I would demand the contractor to grind up and re-apply with proper prep.

Sorry you gotta deal with it, but sooner opposed to later needs a proper resolve

 

[Armorpoxy]

One of the problems of a broom finish is that there are millions of 'hills and valleys'. Prepping, especially in the valleys is difficult and better done with etch, but the bigger problem is that at the 'hills' there is less material/thickiness since when the coating was applied it tends to fill the valleys. Broom finish floors often fail for this reason.

The proper thing was to grind the floor much smoother prior to applying the coating. When grinding a broom finish or irregular floor, it's important to get it smooth and textured as if you only light grind it the valleys get zero prep.

Easy way to fix it is to just cover over it with garage tiles such as our www.supratile.com or something similar.

 

[sparkomatic]

Easy way to fix it is to just cover over it with garage tiles such as our ... or something similar.

Perhaps, but how do you address the front lip of the garage slab where it meets the driveway? Two inches also coated with epoxy...

My only concern with the tile option is how it deals with water, i.e. is the joint/seal tight enough that surface tension keeps water from penetrating and pooling under?

 

[truwrxtacy]

Honestly, this is why I went with VCT. In a previous house had epoxy and over time it always ends up peeling eventually, even friends of mine complain about theirs, all different contractors and 2 of my friends did themselves with stuff they knew was good. HOT tires can do weird things on epoxy. The day, the time, the humidity, the prep, the mix, everything has to be perfect that day to get a perfect install. It's just too risky.

VCT is cheap, will cost you much less, and can go right overtop that current floor with basically no prep at all! I've seen this stuff put overtop dusty basement floors and still sticks and looks great.

Have had mine over 12 years now.

that flooring looks beautiful, how much did it cost and where did you get it?

 

[Billwater24]

New to the forum. I have been prepping concrete for 3 years for a friend who does epoxy coatings in Des Moines, IA. Sparkomatic, sorry to say but that’s not prepped. Brooming is still done when the concrete is slightly wet so it closes the pores just enough. ***** to hear because you probably spent a lot on it. Removal and a recoat won’t be cheap. Good luck!

 

[garageliving]

Epoxies are not hat tire resistant. Try polyaspartic flooring installed by a professional company and the floor will be there for a very long time. Most companies that install polyaspartic floor coating give a 15 year warranty.

 

[rburke65]

I’d vote for nothing at all or VCT for this very reason.

 

[tncatadjuster]

Epoxies are not hat tire resistant. Try polyaspartic flooring installed by a professional company and the floor will be there for a very long time. Most companies that install polyaspartic floor coating give a 15 year warranty.

Blanket statement.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Sorry to read what the OP is going through. I don't think the slab needs to be replaced.

My slab was about a year old and had been sealed. At the time I kicked myself for allowing it to be sealed knowing I was going to put Rust Bullet on it. Maybe Justin from Garage Flooring who sold me the RB might have told me that a year old, unsealed floor still needed to be diamond ground, I can't remember.

Anyway … I diamond ground with a machine and special wheel that I had to go a specific Home Depot to get. It was a mess, it was a lot of work. Did I say it was a mess? 1000sf.

But in the end the RB has stuck to the concrete and has NO signs of lifting. But I park race cars with cold tires on it. No hot tires. Door fast almost due north so the floor is never cooked in the sun. I do have hydronic heat in the floor to heat the shop in the winter time.

This thread has been a HUGE education on porcelain vs ceramic vs VCT, proper garage floor prep, opening pores in concrete, the hills and valleys of broom sweep concrete, etc.

 

[Jason B]

I’d vote for nothing at all or VCT for this very reason.

Smart man.

 

[frank001]

I did my garage floor over four years ago myself. I acid etched the floor and applied the epoxy per the manufactures instructions. I haven't had any lifting or other problems with any of the three vehicles parked in the garage.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284998&highlight=frank001

 

[sparkomatic]

Sparkomatic, sorry to say but that’s not prepped. Brooming is still done when the concrete is slightly wet so it closes the pores just enough.

Here's the catch, it was prepped, just as you suggested, allegedly. That is a BRAND NEW SLAB we had put in with the crew knowing that it was to be prepped for epoxy floor and they did indeed brush it when still wet. How well done, I can't say, and this is where it gets tricky...

***** to hear because you probably spent a lot on it. Removal and a recoat won’t be cheap. Good luck!

I did. That new garage slab with five helical piers and an epoxy floor right after didn't come from the flea market. Here's where this gets tricky... The garage slab removal/replacement was doing by a well known top notch company in our area, and it turns out that one of their employees who was part of the slab project also has a side business doing epoxy coating and is who did the install. So, the point being that he was part of the job all the way from demo to epoxy after curing, knew that was the plan and how the concrete should be poured and prepped. Yet now I get this in response -

...because of the broom finish being so aggressive that the tires probably crushed the high peaks of the broom bristle grooves, breaking the bond and that is what caused the delimitation [sic].

That statement makes me so livid I can't see straight. This employee (or perhaps one of the others) ordered the concrete crew to prep for epoxy, watched them do the job, analyzed the end result immediately upon completion when adjustments could be made prior to curing, as well as prior to laying epoxy. If the broom finish or overall condition wasn't right, then the epoxy shouldn't have been installed before proper additional prep if needed. Don't give me a bogus BS excuse to why it's now peeling up.

And to boot, installer thinks it's a great idea for me to get black mats for the car to sit on and to help "avoid black marks on the floor under the tires." AYKM? I paid for a floor coating that is easy to clean, doesn't stain, and doesn't require cry-baby protection.

While another repair can be made, IMO the only way this can be properly addressed is to pull the entire floor and redo from ground zero. Install is going to fight back on this, but when a job isn't done right from the beginning, there is no other answer. I didn't buy a floor with patches...