Anyone still using R22 systems for their home?

[stickshift]

We're still on an old R22 system that is probably nearing end of life. High side pressure gets to 300-350, which is too high according to our AC servicing company. They say there's nothing that can be done about it as this is a very old AC unit, and that while it cools the house, it's doing so inefficiently.

My understanding is that R22 will no longer be available or only in very limited volume (and thus potentially much higher prices) beginning Jan 2020.

So I'm wondering if we should replace the AC unit this year (either now-ish) or ride out the summer and replace in September or next April/May. Obviously I'd hate to have the AC keel over in August in the middle of a heat wave and have to pay through the nose for a replacement during peak season.

 

[dave*99]

How old is the current system?

I had a new house in 1986. A 3 ton R-22 system was installed. 10 SEER. In the early 2000's I replaced with a 3 ton 14 SEER. Still a R-22 system, but the condensing unit was much larger due to the higher efficiency rating. There was a $1000 rebate from the utility company at the time.

Overall, the cooling was much better and the electricity bill dropped significantly.

So that's my vote for replacing your system now. Check with the utility company for incentives.

 

[acmikee]

have you tried washing your condenser coil. or are your fins rotting away

 

[IndyGarage]

I still have R-22, and I will keep using it until I can't anymore.

It is a much better refrigerant and more efficient than the newer stuff. That's why a new Condenser is twice as big as an old R-22 one. That idea of newer equipment being "more efficient" is just a sales pitch. Yeah, let's spend $8,000 on new equipment so we can save $50 a month on cooling - that sounds like a bright idea - but they sell it all day long.

R-22 runs at 300-350 regularly if it's hot out - it doesn't sound like a problem to me.

 

[stickshift]

How old is the current system?

Not sure, I'll have to take a look. Was already here when parents bought the house 2 decades ago.

have you tried washing your condenser coil. or are your fins rotting away

No idea, I'll take a look. I'd have guessed this is something AC servicing company does? My folks have had annual contracts with a servicing co. for years.

Watched a video on a dirty AC, where the condensor looked like it was wearing a blanket!

 

[strutaeng]

Yeah, run it until it dies. My parents have a Carrier system put back when I was in middle school ('96 or '97,) and is still running. They get it serviced periodically, but don't think it has ever been re-charged.

My neighbor has a system that looks even older than my parents' system, like from the '80s! It's still going...like the Energizer bunny!

On the other hand, I had a new Trane condenser that lasted only 3 seasons...I think stuff is just not built the was it was before, like everything else.

I always hear ads on the radio claiming that, "a brand new system will reduce your electric bill by 50%!" That's BS. I've seen the same claim in commercial buildings; again not true. That's salesman's talk. You may need 10-20 years to recoup a new system...

 

[IndyGarage]

I always hear ads on the radio claiming that, "a brand new system will reduce your electric bill by 50%!" That's BS. I've seen the same claim in commercial buildings; again not true. That's salesman's talk. You may need 10-20 years to recoup a new system...

And how many will last 10-20 years without repairs? Almost none.

You will never recoup your money on that deal.

Run it until it dies then fix it economically and run it again.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I still have R-22, and I will keep using it until I can't anymore.

As long as the gas stays in the system, you can run it forever. R-22 is get very pricey !

Beginning January 1, 2020: The Montreal Protocol requires the U.S. to reduce its consumption of HCFCs by 99.5% below the U.S. baseline. Refrigerant that has been recovered and recycled/reclaimed will be allowed beyond 2020 to service existing systems, but chemical manufacturers will no longer be able to produce R-22 to service existing air conditioners and heat pumps.

 

[MattT]

I always hear ads on the radio claiming that, "a brand new system will reduce your electric bill by 50%!" That's BS.

Yeah pure BS because no air conditioner can halve your service charge or reduce the power everything else uses. The cooling portion of my summer bills doesn't even come to half the bill so even if I turned the AC off it wouldn't reduce it by 50%.

50% of the cooling portion of the bill might be do-able depending on what equipment you currently have. Or maybe even more than that with a very extreme jump like going from an old central unit to high end mini splits.

It's easy enough to figure a reasonably accurate estimate of how much a more efficient system will save. Add up how much higher your cooling season bills are, in $$$ and kwh, compared to where your bills bottom out in spring and fall. Then plug your annual cooling kwh number, along with old and new equipment SEERs, into one of the online calculators to get an estimated kwh savings. Then just use old and new kwh to calculate a $$$ savings estimate.

This calculated number won't be perfect but close enough to ballpark ROI, or lack thereof.

 

[Lassen Forge]

Just remember R-12 was going to cost upwards of $500 a can, and become unavailable once they outlawed the older AC units in cars...

Um Hmm... R22 will do the same. Especially since the older coolers all ran the stuff. Like R12, there's going to be a LOT of it around for a long, long time.

They can't release the stuff in the air, so there will become more of it, not less, as they decommission the old units and stick people with a less efficient HVAC unit. Just like they did cars.

We had one years ago (an older Carrier) that the compressor went out - the AC guy came out, evacuated (uncharged) it, did the repairs, recharged the system using the same coolant, and on it continued cooling the house for years afterwards. Unless you have a leak, you don't magically "lose" refrigerant, and if you DO have a leak, not getting it fixed is silly.

 

[stickshift]

So I took a look at the AC unit. Condensor appears to be in decent shape and fins aren't coated with dirt, apart from one small section, pics below.

This is a Carrier unit, but other that, couldn't find any identifying info - model or age. Some pics below, in case any of the AC techs here can discern the model or capacity or likely age.

There's a bit of a humming coming from the unit (AC not running), AC servicing people never mentioned it, so I guess this is normal?

 

[dave*99]

Is the transformer in pic 4 doing the humming?

 

[stickshift]

Is the transformer in pic 4 doing the humming?

Yes, that's where the hum seems to originate from.

 

[Wrench97]

It ugly and needs a good cleaning all plant material in the bottom will rot the fins and stop air flow raising temps and thus high side pressures.

 

[stickshift]

It ugly and needs a good cleaning all plant material in the bottom will rot the fins and stop air flow raising temps and thus high side pressures.

Yeah, there's a good inch of what can only be described as semi-compost at the bottom. I'll clean that out.

Any easier way to get to the stuff farthest away from the access panel than simply stretching/reaching in with my hand?

 

[Wrench97]

Shop vac or compressed air but most of the time you can just blow it out with water hose.

 

[Jackfre]

I remember the year that everything had to go to 13 seer, which the industry fought like crazy. I was at the HARDI show and walked up to a 5 ton Lennox condenser. I thought I was looking at the ***-end of a '50 Hudson Hornet. I was the Fujitsu Rep in New England at the time and could not resist asking the sales guy where the door was. He said, "what door?" I said well this thing is big enough you have to be able to park the lawn mower in it.
The 410a refrigerant, I hear is going away in a few years too. Perhaps it would be best to keep the current system operational until things clarify on the tech topic. In the mean time do the building maids to reduce the load. That way when you do make the change you end up with a system that is correct for the building. Also, prior to doing anything with new equipment do a close analysis of your current duct system. Is it sized correctly, insulated, leak free, etc. If the ductwork is shot, you are throwing good money after bad on the new equipment.

 

[86turbodsl]

The key thing to remember here, is forced obsolescence tends to line company pocketbooks. Keep your R22 system running until it's necessary to update, then find the sweet spot on whatever is current and do that.

 

[brewchief]

R-22 supply is an unknown at this time, I have seen articles in the last year or so talking about how not as much recovered R-22 has made its way back to be remanufactured.

It could go way higher or it could stay about the same, nobody really knows.


The coil on that unit is a double layer and is tough to get truly clean, best you can do is wash it from the inside out with a garden hose, keep going over it until nothing comes out. It might look clean on the outside but I bet a lot of **** will come out, judging by the **** in the bottom I doubt it's had a really good cleaning in a long time, a quick rinse from the outside isn't enough.


Power company in my area offers a device that works with your smart meter to help track power usage, it can make it pretty easy to see exactly how much an old unit is costing to run. A new unit can be much more efficient if installed properly. A poor install may cancel out any gains that you should see.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[rharman]

Next week, we're having one of ours replaced. Our plan, and also that of our A/C guy was to keep it running for as long as we could. Then, a few weeks ago, the compressor seized up. Not worth the repair cost so we're doing the whole system. That unit was replaced 14 years ago and the ducting, which was never right, is 26 years old so we're redoing it all. 16 SEER - Hoping to cut our bill down and get some better flow/cooling with revamping the ducts.

 

[99LeCouch]

Get a can of A/C coil cleaner from one of the box stores and clean that puppy. Also, clean the evaporator coil on the inside, and check the blower fan for dust on the blades.

We have a 2002-ish A/C that is R-22. We plan to run it for another few years. Someone did a good installation, and it works fine. Having older equipment around here is pretty common. Our cooling season is not that long, and houses are generally insulated.

 

[IndyGarage]

2002 is practically new. Mine were installed in 1989. Trane - still running good.

 

[stickshift]

I removed the fan cover and used the shop vac to get all the crud out of there (while doing it, I wondered why we're paying for an annual AC service contract if I'm the one cleaning up what is undoubtedly years of crud buildup). Then I hosed off the coils from the inside and the outside. Not sure the coils are any cleaner from just hosing them with water.

Get a can of A/C coil cleaner from one of the box stores and clean that puppy.

So this was going to be my next question. I take it the coil cleaner actually works?

 

[bonneyman]

I still have R-22, and I will keep using it until I can't anymore.

It is a much better refrigerant and more efficient than the newer stuff. That's why a new Condenser is twice as big as an old R-22 one. That idea of newer equipment being "more efficient" is just a sales pitch. Yeah, let's spend $8,000 on new equipment so we can save $50 a month on cooling - that sounds like a bright idea - but they sell it all day long.

R-22 runs at 300-350 regularly if it's hot out - it doesn't sound like a problem to me.

By and large A/C companies don't like doing service these days, because there's no money in it. It takes years and lots of training to get journeyman-level troubleshooters. Not alot of desire out there to go through all that, so they're not many good technicians available. They deserve to be paid big bucks - who wants to have to pay that? And many times the repairs they do don't bring in anywhere near the same amount of mullah as a new install.

So companies have shifted to salesman in technicians clothing. They look for ways to talk you into getting a new unit. Because the companies then make big $$$, the techs are paid by commission so they make big $$$, and the manufacturers sell more units and they're making the big $$$. Everybody makes out but the customer!

 

[stickshift]

R-22 runs at 300-350 regularly if it's hot out - it doesn't sound like a problem to me.

Definitely possible the guy was trying to scare me into upgrading to a new system.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Definitely possible the guy was trying to scare me into upgrading to a new system.

300-350 high side pressure is way to high for r22, I'd sure like to see what the low side pressure is........is it cooling the house?

I would think on a 90 deg day with and older r22 system you'd be looking at maybe 250 psi on the high side and maybe 70 on the low side.

I have installed many r22 systems and I can't ever remember having a high side over 300 that didn't have some kind of restriction somewhere.

as far as those annual check ups, I'm not sure what they could possibility be checking?, you don't need them there a waste of money. just another up sell.
Keep the coils clean and your good, the last thing you need to be doing is having someone put the gauges on and checking the charge every year, that's just asking for trouble. It's a sealed system it don't need to checked every year........if it's low on refrigerant it'll let you know when it doesn't bring the house down to temperature.
just my two cents

 

[Jim greengo]

By and large A/C companies don't like doing service these days, because there's no money in it. It takes years and lots of training to get journeyman-level troubleshooters. Not alot of desire out there to go through all that, so they're not many good technicians available. They deserve to be paid big bucks - who wants to have to pay that? And many times the repairs they do don't bring in anywhere near the same amount of mullah as a new install.

So companies have shifted to salesman in technicians clothing. They look for ways to talk you into getting a new unit. Because the companies then make big $$$, the techs are paid by commission so they make big $$$, and the manufacturers sell more units and they're making the big $$$. Everybody makes out but the customer!

I love doing service work,I've always made more money doing service work than installs.

 

[IndyGarage]

300-350 high side pressure is way to high for r22, I'd sure like to see what the low side pressure is........is it cooling the house?

I would think on a 90 deg day with and older r22 system you'd be looking at maybe 250 psi on the high side and maybe 70 on the low side.

I have installed many r22 systems and I can't ever remember having a high side over 300 that didn't have some kind of restriction somewhere.

as far as those annual check ups, I'm not sure what they could possibility be checking?, you don't need them there a waste of money. just another up sell.
Keep the coils clean and your good, the last thing you need to be doing is having someone put the gauges on and checking the charge every year, that's just asking for trouble. It's a sealed system it don't need to checked every year........if it's low on refrigerant it'll let you know when it doesn't bring the house down to temperature.
just my two cents

300 PSI on R-22 is only 130 degrees, so not unusual on a hot day to get the high side there.

I'm not a fan of annual checkups on HVAC either. My experience is they don't clean, it's just an excuse for them to try to sell you a new one.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

300 PSI on R-22 is only 130 degrees, so not unusual on a hot day to get the high side there.

I'm not a fan of annual checkups on HVAC either. My experience is they don't clean, it's just an excuse for them to try to sell you a new one.

On a older r22 system 10-15 years old maybe 10 seer a high side 300 psi 130 deg gas temperature would indicate a outdoor ambient temperature of about 105 deg. And 350 psi would be closer to 120 deg outdoor ambient.

these units when set up properly using the super heat method the high side gas temperature runs about 25 deg over the outdoor temperature.

The head pressures did run higher on the units we installed in the 70's and even into the 80's, before the seer ratings and super heat.........we used to set the charged based on the high side gas temperature being around 30-35 deg over the ambient and call it good..........now that would get you closer to your 300 psi but it would still have to be a 95-100 deg day.

 

[99LeCouch]

I removed the fan cover and used the shop vac to get all the crud out of there (while doing it, I wondered why we're paying for an annual AC service contract if I'm the one cleaning up what is undoubtedly years of crud buildup). Then I hosed off the coils from the inside and the outside. Not sure the coils are any cleaner from just hosing them with water.

So this was going to be my next question. I take it the coil cleaner actually works?

When I purchased my house, the condenser was coated in grass clippings and other debris. Water did not cut it, even after disassembling the case to clean out a foot high mound of grass. The coil cleaner was what it took to make the coil clean again. Done it annually since.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

So I took a look at the AC unit. Condensor appears to be in decent shape and fins aren't coated with dirt, apart from one small section, pics below.

This is a Carrier unit, but other that, couldn't find any identifying info - model or age. Some pics below, in case any of the AC techs here can discern the model or capacity or likely age.

There's a bit of a humming coming from the unit (AC not running), AC servicing people never mentioned it, so I guess this is normal?

I'm amazed the accumulator hasn't rusted out and dumped the charge. Almost all of them did at around the 10 year mark...

Tommy

 

[American Locomotive]

That coil is in desperate need of cleaning. Get some coil cleaner, read the instructions carefully and give 'er a clean.

It is a much better refrigerant and more efficient than the newer stuff. That's why a new Condenser is twice as big as an old R-22 one. That idea of newer equipment being "more efficient" is just a sales pitch.

Modern condensing units are the result of many decades of research into refrigeration. Modern R410a systems are much, much more efficient than old R22 systems.

 

[IndyGarage]

That coil is in desperate need of cleaning. Get some coil cleaner, read the instructions carefully and give 'er a clean.

Modern condensing units are the result of many decades of research into refrigeration. Modern R410a systems are much, much more efficient than old R22 systems.

They may be more efficient, but it has nothing to do with the refrigerant. R22 is much better at transferring heat than R410A.

 

[American Locomotive]

They may be more efficient, but it has nothing to do with the refrigerant. R22 is much better at transferring heat than R410A.

In identical systems, R22 has a higher COP, yes. However modern R410A systems are far more efficient than the best R22 systems.

 

[grounded-b]

Yeah, there's a good inch of what can only be described as semi-compost at the bottom. I'll clean that out.

Any easier way to get to the stuff farthest away from the access panel than simply stretching/reaching in with my hand?

Who ever has been "servicing" this unit, really is not doing a very good job.

All that compost should be removed every service call.

That is what's corroding your coils and housing

 

[EOC_Jason]

I was going to mention you need to pull the disconnect or throw the breaker when cleaning that unit, but since you already cleaned it I guess that point is moot...

You can check the fan for oil ports, if it has them get yourself a bottle of the zoom spout oiler.

Unless they are spraying down and cleaning the evaporator coil each year inside, then your parents have probably been paying a guy to simply drive out and verify the unit still comes on, because it doesn't look like they did squat outside...

You can get pretty close on the charge on those old R22 units just by eyeballing the site-glass, it is a much more forgiving refrigerant than the modern replacements.

Yes, today's A/C units are more efficient... Thinner (and lower quality) metal everywhere so it transfers heat better, but takes practically nothing to rust through... Cheaper components made in Mexico & China... Everything made *barely* to spec, not overbuilt like old units. Like others have said, they can't make money if they sell you something that lasts forever...

Also like others have said, check your evap coil upstairs, if the service company never cleaned it then I bet it could probably use a good cleaning too, check the drain pan, and maybe also blow the drain line out.

I agree with whoever else said the high pressure was probably due to a restriction (though not knowing all the factors it's tough to remote-diagnose). Problem is, you aren't going to find any person willing to touch a unit that old and really get into it. You do something and a week later odds are it's going to start leaking or something else. Old units can be really touchy... If it ain't broke, don't **** with it!

 

[bonneyman]

In identical systems, R22 has a higher COP, yes. However modern R410A systems are far more efficient than the best R22 systems.

Yeah, they finally tweaked the R410a units to maximize it's inherent advantages but for several years R22 units had higher SEER ratings than R410a. Now that they're looking to change refrigerants AGAIN the manufacturers will have to start back a square one.

 

[Tica]

Have two R-22 ArcoAire (Snyder General) 3 ton units that were new to the house when I purchased it in 1993. The downstairs unit has worked flawlessly with regular filter changes and a coil vacuuming and foaming every 4th year. Still keeps it at 72. Upstairs unit, which worked about twice as hard, had a compressor burnout three years ago. That was replaced and its still running fine. May have replaced one condenser fan over the years. My son is a licensed HVAC tech so we can still get R22 if we need it. (Actually most anyone can still buy it.)

 

[stickshift]

Who ever has been "servicing" this unit, really is not doing a very good job.

All that compost should be removed every service call.

That is what's corroding your coils and housing

Yeah, I'm pretty irritated about this.

I was going to mention you need to pull the disconnect or throw the breaker when cleaning that unit, but since you already cleaned it I guess that point is moot...

Yep, pulled out the disconnect.

You can check the fan for oil ports, if it has them get yourself a bottle of the zoom spout oiler.

Thanks, will do. Do older compressors have oil ports as well?

Unless they are spraying down and cleaning the evaporator coil each year inside, then your parents have probably been paying a guy to simply drive out and verify the unit still comes on, because it doesn't look like they did squat outside...

Seeing how they didn't do **** outside, I can guarantee they didn't climb into the attic through the access door in the ceiling of a small closet.

Also like others have said, check your evap coil upstairs, if the service company never cleaned it then I bet it could probably use a good cleaning too, check the drain pan, and maybe also blow the drain line out.

Yep, climbing up there is on the todo list, right after the coil cleaner arrives and I clean the condensor coils.

I agree with whoever else said the high pressure was probably due to a restriction (though not knowing all the factors it's tough to remote-diagnose). Problem is, you aren't going to find any person willing to touch a unit that old and really get into it. You do something and a week later odds are it's going to start leaking or something else. Old units can be really touchy... If it ain't broke, don't **** with it!

So my plan is clean finish cleaning the outside unit (i.e., clean the coils, since I already cleaned out the muck sitting inside the unit), then check/clean the evap. And then see what the differential is between cold air from the registers and ambient temp in the same room. If it's where it should be, I'll probably leave well enough alone. If it's significantly lower than it should be, then I'll think about getting manifold gauges and checking pressure/temp.

Will keep this thread posted. Given the pics I posted of the outside unit with many years of professional AC annual servicing contracts (not some handyman running a side gig), expect a shitshow when I post pics of the evaporator.

 

[Jim greengo]

That coil is in desperate need of cleaning. Get some coil cleaner, read the instructions carefully and give 'er a clean.

Modern condensing units are the result of many decades of research into refrigeration. Modern R410a systems are much, much more efficient than old R22 systems.

I dont know about that,I dont see energy costs reducing tremendously with a new 410a system compared to an r22 system that's running right.
I come across 40 year out r22 systems that are still doing there job.
I dont imagine many 410a systems will ever reach that time in service mark.