Propane to natural gas cost savings help

[BB16]

Hey guys, not sure if this is the right spot, so sorry if it’s not. But I’m building a 30x50x12 steel buildings, footings are getting dug at the moment. I have natural gas at the road (500’ from the house) and currently run off propane. I’ll be heating the barn through Michigan winters. Keeping it around 45 degrees and kicking it up when I’m out there.

My question is, is anyone smart enough to calculate my savings from switching from propane to natural gas? Trying to figure out a break even point. I know natural gas prices vary. My propane is $1.79 a gallon and I have averaged $2,200 in propane a year. For those who have done it, what was your savings? I know that’s a tough question to answer because there’s numerous factors that come into play. If I can save about a grand a year, the 4K up front is a no brainer. Any insight is welcomed. Thanks all

 

[Movover]

Hey guys, not sure if this is the right spot, so sorry if it’s not. But I’m building a 30x50x12 steel buildings, footings are getting dug at the moment. I have natural gas at the road (500’ from the house) and currently run off propane. I’ll be heating the barn through Michigan winters. Keeping it around 45 degrees and kicking it up when I’m out there.

My question is, is anyone smart enough to calculate my savings from switching from propane to natural gas? Trying to figure out a break even point. I know natural gas prices vary. My propane is $1.79 a gallon and I have averaged $2,200 in propane a year. For those who have done it, what was your savings? I know that’s a tough question to answer because there’s numerous factors that come into play. If I can save about a grand a year, the 4K up front is a no brainer. Any insight is welcomed. Thanks all

All Depends on the Nat Gas Price. For us in Maine Gas is roughly $1.42 therm
Using this link https://www.energydepot.com/ResidentialEnergyCalculator/ I would save $121 a year if I converted from propane to NG if I was paying the $1.79 a gal.

 

[MattT]

All Depends on the Nat Gas Price. For us in Maine Gas is roughly $1.42 therm
Using this link https://www.energydepot.com/ResidentialEnergyCalculator/ I would save $121 a year if I converted from propane to NG if I was paying the $1.79 a gal.

That link should work for calculating the fuel cost savings. But then you've got to subtract the fixed monthly costs, and any other fees, of having nat gas. And these generally add up to a few hundred per year.

 

[BB16]

All Depends on the Nat Gas Price. For us in Maine Gas is roughly $1.42 therm
Using this link https://www.energydepot.com/ResidentialEnergyCalculator/ I would save $121 a year if I converted from propane to NG if I was paying the $1.79 a gal.

Thanks, I’m not sure what ng goes for here honestly. And I’m not smart enough to use that calculator. But at only $121 a year savings, it’d take forever to even break even.

 

[BB16]

That link should work for calculating the fuel cost savings. But then you've got to subtract the fixed monthly costs, and any other fees, of having nat gas. And these generally add up to a few hundred per year.

I don’t know enough about it to use the calculator haha. Not sure what ng goes for here either. I’d have to call and find out. But at only a couple hundred dollars a year, I’m not so sure it’s worth it to convert right now. It’d cost about 4-4.5k to convert.

 

[Jazzman442]

Propane has more BTU's per gallon. By the time you convert all of your appliances to Natural gas I would think it would not make sense. I am in Florida and the Propane is a bit more expensive here. Maybe more efficient heaters?

Im watching this to learn.

 

[Showkey]

Best to do your own calculations on savings..........using your data in my location the saving with nat gas would be $1500 per year.
I have Nat gas ........Near by neighbors are hooking up this month. Their cost to connect is $3000 their projected savings vary $1400-$1900 per year.

Nat has here is .44 per therm delivered ( gas and distribution) with $17.00/ month meter fee





Was not all that long ago when propane was very expensive........How soon we forgot those $3-5 per gallon propane.

 

[BB16]

Best to do your own calculations on savings..........using your data in my location the saving with nat gas would be $1500 per year.

Thank you for the insight. I guess I’ve got some learning to do. I’ll figure out the real life numbers and see what I end up saving.

 

[rburke65]

Price per btu n compare....I would assume

 

[BB16]

Here’s a pic of my neighbors bill. Doesn’t show anything about therms. Anyone understand the breakdown?

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[LifeLongWNYer]

One advantage of propane is that if you get ticked off at your supplier, you can simply call a different one. With natural gas, once you pipe into the gas main, you are committed!

Similarly, if you want to price shop, you can call the various propane suppliers and shop around. With natural gas, there is no shopping around.

It is ( usually ) easy to convert from propane to natural gas, you just put in larger orifices, or drill them out. But, once you drill out an orifice for natural gas, you can't go back to propane without replacing it. Sometimes, the replacements are HARD to find.




.

 

[Showkey]

Mcf conversion

MCF – An MCF is 1,000 cubic feet. One MCF = 1,020,000 btu's. People often round to say that one MCF is the same as an MMBTU but one MCF is actually 1.02 MMBTUs.

So the bill you posted used 6.8 thousand cubic feet of gas or about 68 therms. That’s not much gas for a February bill. That would be like a water heater and clothes dryer usage.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=45&t=8

Example I used 62 therms in June my bill all in gas, distribution, taxes and meter fee was a total $42.

61 CCF or 6.1 MCF or 62 therms in even round numbers

As for being tied to the gas company........they are controlled by utility laws. They can not raise prices on a whim.
Propane prices are a market price. There dozens of posts on propane pricing and the need to own your tank if you wish to shop supplier. If your a long time propane user you already know the propane and tank and supplier issues.

 

[BB16]

Mcf conversion

MCF – An MCF is 1,000 cubic feet. One MCF = 1,020,000 btu's. People often round to say that one MCF is the same as an MMBTU but one MCF is actually 1.02 MMBTUs.

So the bill you posted used 6.8 thousand cubic feet of gas or about 68 therms. That’s not much gas for a February bill. That would be like a water heater and clothes dryer usage.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=45&t=8

Example I used 62 therms in June my bill all in gas, distribution, taxes and meter fee was a total $42.

I feel like I owe you a beer. I found a calculator that rounded 6.8McF to 69 therms. Or roughly $0.89 per therm. Now I’m trying to figure out what 1215 gallons of propane at 1.79 for the year ($2175 annually) equates to in savings if I’m paying 0.89 cents a therm.

Looks like 69 therms equates to 75 gallons of propane.
69 therms = $62
75 gallons of propane = $134
..at current prices.

So natural gas is less than half the price in my area if I did my math correctly. I could cut my annual gas bill from $2200 to around $1,000. Can anyone confirm my math before I make a $4,000 mistake..haha

 

[Showkey]

This calculator say $1668 per year.
Default home 2000 sqft ........heating, hot water, clothes dryer. .89 therm $1.79 for propane
Link to the calculator
http://www.energydepot.com/ResidentialEnergyCalculator/

 

[brewchief]

Cutting the fuel cost in half sounds about right, it's been a little while since I have run the numbers but it's probably close.

Most furnaces can be converted from LP to natural gas, in some cases with older equipment it can be hard to source parts.

Very few tank style water heaters can be converted, most of the time they have to be replaced.

Other appliances can be a crapshoot, stoves and dryers are normally not to bad, some gas fireplaces cannot be converted.

Depending on where the current propane regulator is and where the new gas meter can be brought to the house you can have either very simple gas piping or very complex, on some occasions the gas piping used for propane is undersized for natural gas.


I've done many conversions over the years and have never had a customer regret it.


When you talk to a gas company service planner make sure that you have all your current and future loads figured in, if you need a larger meter in the future they will charge you more then if you get it from the start.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[road_king]

Contact the utility company and find out the cost to connect. That may affect your decision to convert.

 

[BB16]

Cutting the fuel cost in half sounds about right, it's been a little while since I have run the numbers but it's probably close.

Most furnaces can be converted from LP to natural gas, in some cases with older equipment it can be hard to source parts.

Very few tank style water heaters can be converted, most of the time they have to be replaced.

Other appliances can be a crapshoot, stoves and dryers are normally not to bad, some gas fireplaces cannot be converted.

Depending on where the current propane regulator is and where the new gas meter can be brought to the house you can have either very simple gas piping or very complex, on some occasions the gas piping used for propane is undersized for natural gas.


I've done many conversions over the years and have never had a customer regret it.


When you talk to a gas company service planner make sure that you have all your current and future loads figured in, if you need a larger meter in the future they will charge you more then if you get it from the start.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Great info, thanks a lot. I’ll have to look into what I can convert. I have a new stove that I know I can. Dryer is electric. Unsure on the water heater, furnace or fireplace.

Where in Michigan are you from? I’m in Livingston county

 

[brewchief]

I work in Livingston county, I send a PM with contact details for the company I work for.

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[stokefire7]

Your gas pipe may have to be resized.

 

[MattT]

So natural gas is less than half the price in my area if I did my math correctly. I could cut my annual gas bill from $2200 to around $1,000. Can anyone confirm my math before I make a $4,000 mistake..haha

I figured $975 so I'd say your close enough at $1,000. You'll probably break even in three winters once the added demand for the new barn is figured in. That's if you can do it for 4 grand though. Like Brewchief said it could cost considerably more depending on exactly what needs done inside the house.

 

[D.J.]

I don't like the price for transportation and all the other costs that's on every bill even in the summer on freedom gas (natural) when your using very little gas for clothes drying water heating and cooking on the range. I'd stick with propane!

 

[denis4x4]

I have a barn that should have never had heat/AC due to poor insulation. Replacing two 120 gallon propane tanks with a single 500. Also have a vacation home that is serviced by a different company that charges $.85 a gallon more than the outfit that services the house/barn. I own the tanks, so I can shop prices. Price to hook up to the natural gas line and convert appliances doesn’t pencil out.

 

[NUTTSGT]

One advantage of propane is that if you get ticked off at your supplier, you can simply call a different one. With natural gas, once you pipe into the gas main, you are committed!

Similarly, if you want to price shop, you can call the various propane suppliers and shop around. With natural gas, there is no shopping around.

It is ( usually ) easy to convert from propane to natural gas, you just put in larger orifices, or drill them out. But, once you drill out an orifice for natural gas, you can't go back to propane without replacing it. Sometimes, the replacements are HARD to find.

.

You can have a different supplier fill "your" tank, if you actually own it. Propane suppliers will not fill another company's tank, atleast not around here.


One nice thing about Nat Gas is not running out or getting low. If a storm strikes and delivery truck can't get out or keep up, you can run out.

 

[yeldogt]

This is a "no brainer" -- connect. Redo the math --

Have propane at my country place -- I would be digging the trench myself if I had the opportunity. Especially when propane spikes

 

[MattT]

This is a "no brainer" -- connect. Redo the math --

Have propane at my country place -- I would be digging the trench myself if I had the opportunity. Especially when propane spikes

The OPs cost savings calculation looks right. Only thing he needs to firm up is the total cost of conversion.

 

[yeldogt]

The OPs cost savings calculation looks right. Only thing he needs to firm up is the total cost of conversion.

Some of the figures ........ $121 savings -- no way.

He states 4k for connect ... most appliance are not difficult or costly.

In most areas NG is dropping in cost -- mine is going down again. Propane can spike and have shortages.

Anding a barn -- need more propane storage = cost.

 

[BB16]

Some of the figures ........ $121 savings -- no way.

He states 4k for connect ... most appliance are not difficult or costly.

In most areas NG is dropping in cost -- mine is going down again. Propane can spike and have shortages.

Anding a barn -- need more propane storage = cost.

I calculated $1,005 annual savings, the $121 was another gentleman. The 4K was what the gas company wants to run the line to the house, I sit back +-500 feet off the roadway. I’m unsure on the cost to convert everything in the house to natural gas.

I agree with everything you’re saying, I just think you misread a lot of this thread haha.

 

[MattT]

Some of the figures ........ $121 savings -- no way.

He states 4k for connect ... most appliance are not difficult or costly.

In most areas NG is dropping in cost -- mine is going down again. Propane can spike and have shortages.

Anding a barn -- need more propane storage = cost.

Yeah that $121 figure isn't applicable to the OP but I believe it's true for the guy who posted it. I'd actually loose money if I switched.

And on the other extreme the 44c/therm and $1,688 savings figures are also "no way". Not surprising considering the source.

Regards conversion costs inside the home it might not cost anything if the OP can do it himself and the gas company will allow that. Worst case is having a pro replace piping and major appliances which could add several years to the break even. Not saying this is a deal breaker but the OP should get accurate numbers to confirm the total project cost will give a ROI he's comfortable with.

 

[Stuart in MN]

One nice thing about Nat Gas is not running out or getting low. If a storm strikes and delivery truck can't get out or keep up, you can run out.

This is an important factor - you have to consider the convenience of natural gas, and not ever having to worry about running out (yes, there is the possibility of a gas line break or malfunction somewhere in the distribution system but that's a pretty rare occurrence.)

Maybe not as important, but you also won't have to look at that big ugly propane tank sitting out in the yard anymore.

 

[Justin James]

BB16,
I also live in Livingston County. We switched to NG almost 2 years ago and all I can say is DO IT. Our heating costs were cut just short of half. The cost to hook up were a bit higher than yours, but we should break even on that in another 2 years. Don't forget the reaming we took a few years ago when propane spiked to $4-5 per gallon. I simply cannot understand all the people telling you not to do it. The propane companies in this area are some of the dirtiest thieves I have ever dealt with. Parker Propane is about the best, but it was a good day when I got to make that call and tell them to get their **** out of my yard.
The cost of changing over your appliances is not that bad but you may have trouble with the water heater, most nowadays cannot be converted. I can recommend a good HVAC guy if you need one. I already had the conversion part for everything except the tankless HWH, my buddy was able to source those.
I don't know if this will apply to your situation. When they first contacted us about hooking up (it was a new gas project) the amount of free footage (gas line) increased with the meter size. The gas company will put the smallest meter in so when we did our usage calculations I fudged the numbers a bit to get the med. sized meter. Now I'm good for any future needs. PM me if you want to chat.

John

 

[NUTTSGT]

This is an important factor - you have to consider the convenience of natural gas, and not ever having to worry about running out (yes, there is the possibility of a gas line break or malfunction somewhere in the distribution system but that's a pretty rare occurrence.)

Maybe not as important, but you also won't have to look at that big ugly propane tank sitting out in the yard anymore.

One thing that I I forget to mention is a whole house generator. The power goes out with LP and a propane generator, you'll go through your supply even faster. If you have a Nat gas generator and Nat gas generator, in theory, no worries. Either way, you'll take a hit on the wallet running both ......heat and alternative power source.

 

[Movover]

Best to do your own calculations on savings..........using your data in my location the saving with nat gas would be $1500 per year.
I have Nat gas ........Near by neighbors are hooking up this month. Their cost to connect is $3000 their projected savings vary $1400-$1900 per year.

Nat has here is .44 per therm delivered ( gas and distribution) with $17.00/ month meter fee



I would LOVE to see .44 therm delivered. Right Now I am @ 1.755 Per Therm + Monthly charge



Was not all that long ago when propane was very expensive........How soon we forgot those $3-5 per gallon propane.

Some of the figures ........ $121 savings -- no way.

He states 4k for connect ... most appliance are not difficult or costly.

In most areas NG is dropping in cost -- mine is going down again. Propane can spike and have shortages.

Anding a barn -- need more propane storage = cost.

Yeah that $121 figure isn't applicable to the OP but I believe it's true for the guy who posted it. I'd actually loose money if I switched.

And on the other extreme the 44c/therm and $1,688 savings figures are also "no way". Not surprising considering the source.
with.

I switched a about 6 years ago when it was only About $1.20 Therm and oil was over $3 A gal. The Gas Company was free install to the road because they were installing service in town. The change out on my end was a Used gas conversion burner and the piping which I did all myself then had a licensed gas tech come over and certify\test the install and brought it online when the gas co put in the meter. Total cost out of pocket was roughly $400 but with oil coming down in price its a break even now, but I have not had to clean the furnace in 6 years it looks great, no calling for oil, no spikes in prices and I still have the Oil burner and tank so I can convert back if oil for some reason drops through the floor

 

[Showkey]

Guess there’s one or two that don’t understand the price therm can vary by location.
WPS is .44 for gas and distribution
Madison Wi is .41 for gas and distribution
WE energies is .82 for gas and distribution

All three locations in the same state and within 200 miles.

 

[Jazz1]

I figured $975 so I'd say your close enough at $1,000. You'll probably break even in three winters once the added demand for the new barn is figured in. That's if you can do it for 4 grand though. Like Brewchief said it could cost considerably more depending on exactly what needs done inside the house.

The plumbing can be tedious. When I purchased we had gas furnace plumbed in along with plumbing in stove and hot water. One fellow was in our crawl space for 10 hours. The last few hours of the day a few more plumbers stopped by and were cutting and threading pipe. I asked if they were going to finish that day and guy says. "yes,cuz no effing way I want to spend another day in crawl space"
$3300 including the furnace, MIL paid the bill

PO of house had electric and heating bills averaged $1300 bi monthly during cold weather, which we get lots of.

 

[MattT]

I switched a about 6 years ago when it was only About $1.20 Therm and oil was over $3 A gal. The Gas Company was free install to the road because they were installing service in town. The change out on my end was a Used gas conversion burner and the piping which I did all myself then had a licensed gas tech come over and certify\test the install and brought it online when the gas co put in the meter. Total cost out of pocket was roughly $400 but with oil coming down in price its a break even now, but I have not had to clean the furnace in 6 years it looks great, no calling for oil, no spikes in prices and I still have the Oil burner and tank so I can convert back if oil for some reason drops through the floor

Are you paying > $400/yr in service charges and $1.75 a therm or am I misreading that bill?

And agreed nat gas or lpg is preferable to oil just from a cleanliness and reliability standpoint. Really the only nice thing about oil is you can get more of it from most gas stations 24/7 when the tank runs out.

 

[jpaw]

I'm in Livingston county as well. We converted in 2015 and it was well worth it.
We spend probably a 1/3 of what we did on propane. We had to pay to have it brought down our road so you are already ahead. I roughly figured about a 7 year ROI but I think we are doing better than that and if I ever get the barn hooked up it would be even faster.
Remember that the more fuel that you use will increase your ROI so by hooking up the barn you will essentially see the savings sooner.
The best part is not having the propane bill over your head every 6 weeks or so for the winter. Once you figure out your usage you can budget your bills to be the same every month if you choose.

 

[jpaw]

One other thing, you can dig the trench and even run the pipe yourself to save some money if you have the means to do so. Then have Consumers do the hookups.

 

[MWitte]

I finally made the conversion from propane to Natural Gas last winter. My annual usage was about 800 to 1000 gallons of propane per year, and my estimates put Natural Gas at about half the cost. We made the conversion mid-winter so I don't have a full year of data yet, but I think my cost will be closer to 1/3 of what propane was. I did have to change my water heater - it was 25 years old, and full of calcium, so I did not feel too bad about replacing it. The local propane company would surprise me with every transaction, so I won't miss dealing with that. I had to buy 1000 feet of gas main to get it to my house. I estimated my return on investment would be about 8 years, but I am pretty sure it will prove to be less.

 

[bjcouche]

Here's another crazy idea... If you are trying to save money... Is there any reason you can't KEEP your propane tank to supply your stove, drier, and water tank, but ADD the natural gas to your furnace? If you have to add different plumbing to those appliances for conversion to natural gas, why not leave the rest of the appliances on propane? I'm on Propane and use it only for hot water and furnace but during the entire summe, I don't go through enough to register a difference on the gauge... My thought was to replace or change the oriface on the furnace and leave the other appliances on propane till that appliance dies...
I'm on Propane at $2.50, and think that's not bad for propane, but all the extra taxes, fees, surcharges, transportation fees, etc, my bills are starting to look like my phone bill. I'm 1200 feet from the road, and if they ran a methane gas line down my road, I'd be the first person in line at Sunbelt rentals the following morning renting a trencher.

 

[FredWurlitzer]

Thank you for the insight. I guess I’ve got some learning to do. I’ll figure out the real life numbers and see what I end up saving.

How long do you plan on living there? That’s also a factor..

One advantage of propane is that if you get ticked off at your supplier, you can simply call a different one. With natural gas, once you pipe into the gas main, you are committed!

Similarly, if you want to price shop, you can call the various propane suppliers and shop around. With natural gas, there is no shopping around.

It is ( usually ) easy to convert from propane to natural gas, you just put in larger orifices, or drill them out. But, once you drill out an orifice for natural gas, you can't go back to propane without replacing it. Sometimes, the replacements are HARD to find.




.

That is if you own your tank, correct? I’m locked in a 3 year contract with our propane supplier. (Not far from you, Livingston Co., NY)

I wouldn’t be surprised if it does turn out to be half the cost. When my wife and I moved to a more rural location last year we went from NG to propane. I ran the numbers and NG was less than half the price of propane. Let’s just say this past winter was a wake up call..