40 Year Old Main Panel w/Pushmatic Breakers

[BigGarage]

I am going to replace this panel soon so I thought I'd take a few pics and post them to show the ravages of time and moisture. I'm fairly certain my Uncle had the original fusebox replaced and upgraded to this panel in the 70's. As you can see from the pics it's in real bad shape. It's in a corner and there's obviously not much air movement down there. I had to replace one of the breakers and had to use pliers to pull it out and I almost pulled the entire box from the wall. It's a disaster waiting to happen.

I have an unused 60 amp breaker at the bottom since I decided against a subpanel that I already had mounted and wired and ready to go. I still have some knob & tube wiring in the house but much of the house has been upgraded to modern Romex with grounded outlets.

The line coming in from the meter also needs replacing due to wear and fraying that I'm certain let moisture in also. The power company replaced the line from the pole to the house a couple of years ago since all of it's insulation was falling off onto my driveway so at least that's new.

When I get my new panel installed I will post pics and costs in this thread to give some an idea of the work and cost.

Dennis

 

[JRas]

She's about due, make sure you use an anti-oxidant compound on the aluminum wiring, Separate the neutrals and grounds, don't double tap breakers/neutral bar, and ground bars (technically you can on a ground bar if it's the same gauge wire.)

 

[James-W]

I would say it is time to replace the panel. Damp basements do tend to cause issues with electrical equipment.

 

[Norcal]

It's past it's prime, the one thing about ITE Pushmatic was they were the only residential bolt on panel, but when the only breakers are ChiCom or used, or in bad shape like the OP's panel, time for replacement.

One of these days, need to put some NOS 70A & 100A Pushmatic breakers on eBay.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ooo that neutral bar is real nasty.

 

[alfredeneuman]

That panel is shot.
Several screws on the right side bus bar have corrosion where the breakers screw to the bus, along with the double lugging problems. (They're nothing compared to the neutral bar though).
The Home Depot Chinese UBI breaker isn't listed.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Was the basement that damp or was water following the service entrance in ? Everything on the right side of that is rusty yet the left is not.

If water is following the service line in and not corrected, you'll see this issue again.

 

[Joe From NY]

That church where I have that oven wiring issue has those old push button breakers in the mix somewhere in the basement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BigGarage]

That church where I have that oven wiring issue has those old push button breakers in the mix somewhere in the basement.

They're called Pushmatics. I have 5 or 6 new ones in a box. Also the 60 amp in my panel is new and unused. You can buy them new if needed.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WUL6BA/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[BigGarage]

Was the basement that damp or was water following the service entrance in ? Everything on the right side of that is rusty yet the left is not.

If water is following the service line in and not corrected, you'll see this issue again.

The covering on the line right above the meter is split in a couple of places. It's also in rough shape below the meter. It probably had more to do with moisture getting in than the moist basement.

It will all be replaced soon.

Dennis

 

[grounded-b]

They're called Pushmatics. I have 5 or 6 new ones in a box. Also the 60 amp in my panel is new and unused. You can buy them new if needed.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WUL6BA/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Those are the UBI Chinese ****. Not UL listed. Labeled as ETL listed, but probably not in reality.

Stay away !!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Those are the UBI Chinese ****. Not UL listed. Labeled as ETL listed, but probably not in reality.

Stay away !!

The NEC doesnt require a U/L listing.

That would be illegal.

It requires a listing by an NRTL/nationally recognized testing laboratory and there are several. ETL Intertek is one of them.

Have you checked the listing on this breaker to support your conclusion that its not really listed?

 

[Norcal]

The NEC doesnt require a U/L listing.

That would be illegal.

It requires a listing by an NRTL/nationally recognized testing laboratory and there are several. ETL Intertek is one of them.

Have you checked the listing on this breaker to support your conclusion that its not really listed?

Only OEM breakers are listed, they might be UL classified for ITE Pushmatic loadcenters though.

 

[grounded-b]

The NEC doesnt require a U/L listing.

That would be illegal.

It requires a listing by an NRTL/nationally recognized testing laboratory and there are several. ETL Intertek is one of them.

Have you checked the listing on this breaker to support your conclusion that its not really listed?

No, I did not. My opinion is that if the breaker is made in China - I don't trust it with my family's safety.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Only OEM breakers are listed, they might be UL classified for ITE Pushmatic loadcenters though.

I looked at the breaker in question and it has an ETL listing number on it.

 

[BigGarage]

The electrical contractor stopped by a couple of hours ago and gave me an estimated price. For the line coming from the mast to the meter, new innards for the meter or something, new line coming from the meter into the basement, and a new 30 space breaker box to be installed (has 20 now) it will be about $1500 plus $100 for the permit and city inspection.

It should all be done on Tuesday, July 2. I'll post some pics when it's all finished.

Here are a few pics of the main line from the mast to the meter and the meter to the main box. The discoloration is from Flex Seal Clear being sprayed on the lines.

Thanks to all for any advice.

Dennis

 

[BigGarage]

Those are the UBI Chinese ****. Not UL listed. Labeled as ETL listed, but probably not in reality.

Stay away !!

After July 2 they will no longer be in my home. The young fellow giving my estimate said that the Pushmatic's were recalled a few years after being sold. I don't know. He said they didn't always trip when required. It'll be a moot point after next Tuesday.

Dennis

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The electrical contractor stopped by a couple of hours ago and gave me an estimated price. For the line coming from the mast to the meter, new innards for the meter or something, new line coming from the meter into the basement, and a new 30 space breaker box to be installed (has 20 now) it will be about $1500 plus $100 for the permit and city inspection.

It should all be done on Tuesday, July 2. I'll post some pics when it's all finished.

Here are a few pics of the main line from the mast to the meter and the meter to the main box. The discoloration is from Flex Seal Clear being sprayed on the lines.

Thanks to all for any advice.

Dennis

Lol thats not a mast.

You have SER running up the wall.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

After July 2 they will no longer be in my home. The young fellow giving my estimate said that the Pushmatic's were recalled a few years after being sold. I don't know. He said they didn't always trip when required. It'll be a moot point after next Tuesday.

Dennis

Hmmm

Ive never heard of a recall on pushmatics...

 

[BigGarage]

Hmmm

Ive never heard of a recall on pushmatics...

That's what the guy said about them. There is a lot of info online about their weaknesses.

https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Pushmatic.php

 

[alfredeneuman]

That's what the guy said about them. There is a lot of info online about their weaknesses.

https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Pushmatic.php

Insectapedia is written by Home Inspectors, who are as a rule notorious
for their lack of electrical knowledge, to put it in as PC a way as I can.

 

[BigGarage]

Lol thats not a mast.

You have SER running up the wall.

I know it's not a mast but dinner was waiting and I was typing and didn't know what else to call it. What does SER stand for?

Dennis

 

[dave*99]

I know it's not a mast but dinner was waiting and I was typing and didn't know what else to call it. What does SER stand for?

Dennis

Service Entrance cable (Reinforced)

 

[mm08822]

Service Entrance cable (Reinforced)

I know it this way..........

SEU cable - 2 phase conductors surrounded by a concentric bare conductor. Cable outer profile shape is an oval (or “U”). (I remember this as "the" SEC cable. Then somewhere along the way came "U" and "R" breakouts.)

SER cable – 2 or more phase conductors with a single bare conductor spirally wound. Cable outer profile shape is round (R).

 

[tyme2par4]

I looked at the breaker in question and it has an ETL listing number on it.

If anyone cares, you can also see it listed on ETLs product directory.
So it is fully compliant with NEC to install it.

https://ramuk.intertekconnect.com/W...fc020c0830099e5d86258131005d8cc6?OpenDocument

 

[alfredeneuman]

I was just wrong ..... again....still. I read it from here:
https://www.ecmweb.com/product-day/replacement-circuit-breakers

instead of going to the Connecticut Electric website

 

[Bert_]

I know it this way..........

SEU cable - 2 phase conductors surrounded by a concentric bare conductor. Cable outer profile shape is an oval (or “U”). (I remember this as "the" SEC cable. Then somewhere along the way came "U" and "R" breakouts.)

SER cable – 2 or more phase conductors with a single bare conductor spirally wound. Cable outer profile shape is round (R).

^this. Also I refuse to run se of any type where it is exposed to sunlight. Pipe it. The se gets cracked and weathered in 20 years or so.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

^this. Also I refuse to run se of any type where it is exposed to sunlight. Pipe it. The se gets cracked and weathered in 20 years or so.

Yeah im not a fan of exposed SE either.

Its actually not allowed out here.

Rigid pipe and individual conductors is just better. Especially when a change out is needed.

Pull the old out, pull the new in.

 

[mm08822]

^this. Also I refuse to run se of any type where it is exposed to sunlight. Pipe it. The se gets cracked and weathered in 20 years or so.

So much se cable was painted over when cedar shingles, shiplap, clapboards were painted that it offered quite a big of protection for many years. Once aluminum siding came to market, it took 20 years for me to realize how cheap the jacket on se cable had become. No one was painting the cable anymore. UV did its number quickly. Paint even provides a level of water protection at the waterproof connectors.

Most recently, had se cable jacket split in the cold weather while making a bend during installation. Had to replace it - no choice.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If anyone cares, you can also see it listed on ETLs product directory.
So it is fully compliant with NEC to install it.

https://ramuk.intertekconnect.com/W...fc020c0830099e5d86258131005d8cc6?OpenDocument

Thanks

I searched on Interteks product directory but couldnt find it.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Yeah im not a fan of exposed SE either.
Its actually not allowed out here.

I can actually say I've never even seen a piece of SE cable.

 

[Norcal]

I can actually say I've never even seen a piece of SE cable.

My house had 6 AWG CU SE cable supplying a 100A service but any SE cable services around here would date back to the 1950’s or older. It was replaced in 80 or 81, and replaced again in 1994.

 

[BigGarage]

Well the guys came at 9:30 a.m. and would've been done by 1 p.m. except for not having silicone caulk for the new line coming into the house. I guess it's always something isn't it? After a quick trip to get some and come back and mark out all the circuits they were completely done at 1:30 p.m.. That's not bad considering they estimated 4-6 hours originally.

They ran the new line up to the meter, installed a new box and globe for the meter, new line into the house and finally 2 8' ground rods hammered into the ground and connected. The new panel is nice and it's nicer knowing that the old piece of junk is gone.

I spent an extra $350 for a whole-house surge-suppressor that I had asked about first. I have 3 t.v.'s and a computer and I ruined a computer one time turning off a main without having the computer plugged into a surge protected outlet.

The permit was $85 more than they thought it would be so the total cost came to $2035.00. Not bad considering I wanted to spend the extra money for the surge-suppressor.

Dennis

 

[mm08822]

How many guys?

Any pics of the exterior?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The branch circuit wiring is a bit sloppy

 

[BigGarage]

How many guys?

Any pics of the exterior?

They had two guys here and they said everything went real smooth with no unforeseen problems, at least until it came time to use the silicone sealer.

Here's a pic of one of the ground rods. The other is 8 to 10 feet to the left of it. Those metal conduits hold circuits going out to the garage. They've been there forever. If I was younger and cared more I would do it right.

Dennis

 

[mm08822]

No doubt you are much better off now than with the old Pushmatic panel.

It looks they were in a rush to leave. This was a simple job and could have looked so much nicer.

Did you pay in full before the inspection?

Some things to ask the inspector to fail:

• The concentric ko for the se connector is ½ way broken out for the next size.
• Putting all of those rx cables into a few rx connectors is hack.
• None of the cables appear to be secured with staples within 12” of panel. (If they went to the trouble to extend the cables in the panel, they could have easily kept enough slack outside of it to staple them.
• Ground rod needs to be driven flush with soil level or deeper

I would have put that panel on ¾” painted plywood to keep it off of the moisture. That wall looks like it gets very damp. You could add the plywood later – cut plywood at least 6” wider than panel all around, top would be better at 12” wide. Paint both sides, unscrew panel mounting, install plywood behind panel, screw panel to plywood.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

They had two guys here and they said everything went real smooth with no unforeseen problems, at least until it came time to use the silicone sealer.

Here's a pic of one of the ground rods. The other is 8 to 10 feet to the left of it. Those metal conduits hold circuits going out to the garage. They've been there forever. If I was younger and cared more I would do it right.

Dennis

Code only allows one circuit to a detached structure.

How many circuits run to the garage?

Could runna feeder out to the garage to replace them.

Could be your next repair/upgrade.

 

[nsula_country]

That was a sloppy rush job. Functional I'm sure, but sloppy. They connected all the dots, but colored way outside the lines!

X2 Mounting to painted plywood will insulate panel from damp masonry. Part of original corrosion issues.

2x on duct seal and the romex clamps and staples.

I don't know why they did not PVC conduit from meter pan into the wall. Not much more labor/materials and would last lifetime. Same for riser. Could have used PVC conduit and a weatherhead.

2x ground rods below grade.

CT

 

[Bert_]

I don't know why they did not PVC conduit from meter pan into the wall. Not much more labor/materials and would last lifetime. Same for riser. Could have used PVC conduit and a weatherhead.

2x ground rods below grade.

CT

I'm not sure I agree with pvc being "life time". I put in less and less services with pvc. Threaded pipe is "lifetime". I often do use emt below the meter just to eliminate any threading.