Power in Shed

[RKCRLR]

New to the forum - Joined to ask this question

My water source is a well. I have a shed adjacent to my well with my bladder tank in the shed and a disconnect mounted on the shed wall for my 220v submersible well pump. The power is provided from my house's subpanel using 3 insulated conductors through PVC conduit. 2 wires are hot and one is being used for ground (no 4th ground wire). The water runs back to the house through PCV pipe.

I'd like to put an iron filter in the shed. It is powered by a 12v transformer that plugs into a 110v outlet.

What would be the easiest and most cost effective way to accomplish this. I'd like to do it to code if possible.

Thanks

 

[pattenp]

You mean no 4th wire for a neutral? What is the amperage of the 240V circuit?

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'd like to put an iron filter in the shed. It is powered by a 12v transformer that plugs into a 110v outlet.

What would be the easiest and most cost effective way to accomplish this. I'd like to do it to code if possible.

Is it 12VAC or 12VDC ?

If AC, just buy a 240V/12V transformer.

 

[The Cobbler]

Is it 12VAC or 12VDC ?

If AC, just buy a 240V/12V transformer.

even if DC, buy a 240v power supply with enough current

 

[RKCRLR]

You mean no 4th wire for a neutral? What is the amperage of the 240V circuit?

Or ground. I could use my current wire as a neutral but would then need another source for ground.

My current breaker is a 30 amps. My well motor only needs 12 amps to start.

 

[RKCRLR]

Is it 12VAC or 12VDC ?

If AC, just buy a 240V/12V transformer.

even if DC, buy a 240v power supply with enough current

My filter transformer output is 500ma @12VDC.
I was thinking about hard wiring a 240v/60Hz transformer in but the lower amp ones are wall warts. I could cut off the end of an extension cord and use that but it doesn't seem like the smartest way to go. I don't think there would be a problem with over-sizing the transformer (efficiency when not in use?).

I was wondering if there is an easy way of getting a ground short of pulling the wires out of the conduit and then re-pulling with a 4th wire.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Since you do not have a neutral, you would need a 240v power supply.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My filter transformer output is 500ma @12VDC.
I was thinking about hard wiring a 240v/60Hz transformer in but the lower amp ones are wall warts. I could cut off the end of an extension cord and use that but it doesn't seem like the smartest way to go. I don't think there would be a problem with over-sizing the transformer (efficiency when not in use?).

I was wondering if there is an easy way of getting a ground short of pulling the wires out of the conduit and then re-pulling with a 4th wire.

Where would you get a ground connection from other than the ground bus in a panel?

 

[walta]

Read the label on the 12 volt power supply carefully you may find its input is rated for something like 100-240 volts AC like this one but its DC plug may or may not fit your filter.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcx-12-volt-dc-2000ma-power-supply-adapter-/161946095163

You could install a NEMA 6-15 outlet in the pump house and use this adaptor to run the power supply.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEMA-6-15P...704677?hash=item5d6b6476e5:g:e3gAAOSwiDFYO5lD

Walta

 

[MattT]

I was wondering if there is an easy way of getting a ground short of pulling the wires out of the conduit and then re-pulling with a 4th wire.

Might not be that difficult depending on the length of the run, pipe diameter & number of bends. If you could also use power out at the shed, for lighting and whatnot, use it as the excuse to re-do the feed & mount a sub panel. Not going to be much money for a small sub panel & a couple ground rods.

 

[The Cobbler]

what does the power supply look like, as mentioned, it may be rated already fro 240volts. if it has a computer style plug cord , maybe all you need is a new power cord . if not, there's ample supplies on ebay & such .
this will be far less $$$ than running new feed to shed

 

[The Cobbler]

even a travel power converter could be used here

 

[RKCRLR]

Might not be that difficult depending on the length of the run, pipe diameter & number of bends. If you could also use power out at the shed, for lighting and whatnot, use it as the excuse to re-do the feed & mount a sub panel. Not going to be much money for a small sub panel & a couple ground rods.

I've had some miserable experiences pulling wire through conduit. I don't want to get myself without water while I'm working on plan B.
But it would be nice to have power in the shed.

 

[RKCRLR]

Read the label on the 12 volt power supply carefully you may find its input is rated for something like 100-240 volts AC.


You could install a NEMA 6-15 outlet in the pump house and use this adaptor to run the power supply.
Walta

This seems like a reasonable approach.
My adapter is rated at 120v and hardwired into the valve unit so I was planning on hardwiring the DC anyway.
Thanks

 

[RKCRLR]

what does the power supply look like, as mentioned, it may be rated already fro 240volts. if it has a computer style plug cord , maybe all you need is a new power cord . if not, there's ample supplies on ebay & such .
this will be far less $$$ than running new feed to shed

It's a wall wart rated for 120v.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You could get a 240/120 transformer and setup a separately derived system.

 

[walta]

Since the adaptor needs 120 volts you will need a step down transformer.
This one should carry the load. Be aware the wattage claims are wildly inflated generally you can use 25% of the claimed wattage continually.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TC-500-500...10-to-220-Volt-Transformer-220v/112219835814?
epid=2256159219&hash=item1a20d2cda6:gioAAOSw301aV-t0

You will need this adaptor to plug the transformer into a code compliant NEMA 6-15 outlet

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcx-12-volt-dc-2000ma-power-supply-adapter-/161946095163


Walta

 

[RKCRLR]

Since the adaptor needs 120 volts you will need a step down transformer.
This one should carry the load. Be aware the wattage claims are wildly inflated generally you can use 25% of the claimed wattage continually.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TC-500-500...10-to-220-Volt-Transformer-220v/112219835814?
epid=2256159219&hash=item1a20d2cda6:gioAAOSw301aV-t0

You will need this adaptor to plug the transformer into a code compliant NEMA 6-15 outlet

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcx-12-volt-dc-2000ma-power-supply-adapter-/161946095163


Walta

I think I'd be better off doing your earlier suggestion and buying a 240v 60 Hz to 12VDC transformer and putting in a NEMA 6-15 outlet. It seems it would be more reliable.

 

[MattT]

You will need this adaptor to plug the transformer into a code compliant NEMA 6-15 outlet

Is a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit code compliant?

 

[pattenp]

Is a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit code compliant?

Nope!

 

[RKCRLR]

So if I hardwire in a 240v 60Hz to 12VDC transformer along with my well pump will I be code compliant?

 

[walta]

You need to change the breaker to a 20 amps before you would be allowed to have R6-20 outlet on that circuit. Note a R6-20 will accept both a P6-15 or a P6-20 plug.

To find a new adaptor you need a set of calipers to measure the original plugs OD and a set of number size drill bits the find the ID of the plug. Also check the polarity most times the positive is in the center but not always.

You will still need the one adaptor with the new power supply.


Walta

 

[Norcal]

So if I hardwire in a 240v 60Hz to 12VDC transformer along with my well pump will I be code compliant?

You will need a 12 VDC power supply that has 240V input, a transformer would have a 12 VAC output.

 

[Aceman]

Is replacing the wiring to the shed an option?

If you really don't want to go that route, you may be able to intercept the existing feed to the well pump and use it to feed a 240v only subpanel. Then install a breaker to refeed the well pump along with a second breaker for the iron filter circuit.

240v only panels aren't commonly done, since most folks have a brother in law bootleg a neutral from a ground wire to power up 120v equipment in their sheds. It's done all the time but is a safety hazard since it introduces neutral current on the ground wire.

A 240v only panel would be compliant, although a little unorthodox to what is typically installed nowadays, which would be a 4 wire 120/240v feeder to a shed subpanel. This would be ideal, but I don't know the scope of work involved to make that happen.

 

[RKCRLR]

You will need a 12 VDC power supply that has 240V input, a transformer would have a 12 VAC output.

So if I hardwire in a 12 VDC power supply will it be compliant with code?
What if I cut off the end of an extension cord and hardwire it in, plug in a wall wart power supply, and put everything in a box. Would that be compliant?

Thanks

 

[RKCRLR]

You need to change the breaker to a 20 amps before you would be allowed to have R6-20 outlet on that circuit. Note a R6-20 will accept both a P6-15 or a P6-20 plug.

To find a new adaptor you need a set of calipers to measure the original plugs OD and a set of number size drill bits the find the ID of the plug. Also check the polarity most times the positive is in the center but not always.

You will still need the one adaptor with the new power supply.


Walta

I will likely be cutting off the 12 VDC plug and hard wiring to the valve pack (unless I use a plug to wire adapter). The current power supply 12 VDC output is hard wired (2 pins on circuit board) and there is no socket.

Thanks

 

[RKCRLR]

Is replacing the wiring to the shed an option?

If you really don't want to go that route, you may be able to intercept the existing feed to the well pump and use it to feed a 240v only subpanel. Then install a breaker to refeed the well pump along with a second breaker for the iron filter circuit.

240v only panels aren't commonly done, since most folks have a brother in law bootleg a neutral from a ground wire to power up 120v equipment in their sheds. It's done all the time but is a safety hazard since it introduces neutral current on the ground wire.

A 240v only panel would be compliant, although a little unorthodox to what is typically installed nowadays, which would be a 4 wire 120/240v feeder to a shed subpanel. This would be ideal, but I don't know the scope of work involved to make that happen.

The existing wiring is in about a 100' run of 1" PVC conduit that is underground and under a concrete patio with multiple bends. I'd be screwed if I couldn't re-pull the wiring.
I do have a grounded outlet about 50' from the shed. Are you allowed to "daisy chain" a ground from a different path? Still would be a PITA and I really don't need power in the shed for anything but the water components (but it would be nice).
The 240v subpanel seems like more than I want to go through.

Thanks

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So if I hardwire in a 240v 60Hz to 12VDC transformer along with my well pump will I be code compliant?

That would be a converter. Transformers dont change electricity from ac to DC.

You would buy a small 240/120v transformer and use that to power a 120v 15a outlet.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The existing wiring is in about a 100' run of 1" PVC conduit that is underground and under a concrete patio with multiple bends. I'd be screwed if I couldn't re-pull the wiring.
I do have a grounded outlet about 50' from the shed. Are you allowed to "daisy chain" a ground from a different path? Still would be a PITA and I really don't need power in the shed for anything but the water components (but it would be nice).
The 240v subpanel seems like more than I want to go through.

Thanks

Im assuming you meant neutral NOT ground because you already have a gound.

And no you cannot take a neutral from another circuit.

Unfortunately, you only have a few options here and theyve already been presented:

240v input wall wart
240v/120v transformer feeding a 120v outlet
Pull new 4-wire feeder, connect to subpanel, isolate neutral bus and add 2 ground rods. Connect existing circuits and add an outlet for the power supply.

Anything else will not be code compliant such as pulling a neutral from another circuit.

 

[RKCRLR]

Im assuming you meant neutral NOT ground because you already have a gound.

And no you cannot take a neutral from another circuit.

Unfortunately, you only have a few options here and theyve already been presented:

240v input wall wart
240v/120v transformer feeding a 120v outlet
Pull new 4-wire feeder, connect to subpanel, isolate neutral bus and add 2 ground rods. Connect existing circuits and add an outlet for the power supply.

Anything else will not be code compliant such as pulling a neutral from another circuit.

I wasn't going to take a neutral from another circuit. I would re-purpose my existing insulated ground wire as a neutral wire by connecting it to the neutral bars at both ends. But then I would need a ground wire. That is what I would run from the outlet that has a ground. Is this allowed?

Why would I need 2 ground rods? I understand I would need one at the shed if I were to run power to it.

The most likely scenario is I will wind up putting in a 12VDC power supply that runs off 240v. Is there a way to hard wire this in that wouldn't require me to reduce the breaker amperage to 20 amps and put in a separate 240v outlet?

Thanks

 

[pattenp]

Two ground rods are normally used to not have to prove the NEC 25 ohms or less resistance requirement. The second rod is cheap compared to the testing to prove 25 ohms or less resistance.

 

[RKCRLR]

Two ground rods are normally used to not have to prove the NEC 25 ohms or less resistance requirement. The second rod is cheap compared to the testing to prove 25 ohms or less resistance.

Thanks

PS I like your avatar. I used to work for Aerojet-Rocketdyne.

 

[walta]

So if I hardwire in a 12 VDC power supply will it be compliant with code?
What if I cut off the end of an extension cord and hardwire it in, plug in a wall wart power supply, and put everything in a box. Would that be compliant?

Thanks

The short answer is HELL NO that not compliant. That is the jack legged sort of stuff that gets people hurt and equipment damaged. What happens when someone unplugs from your extension cord and plugs in the new water filter or a light?


Walta

 

[wanderer]

I can’t believe nobody has suggested the obvious. Put a 240 V outlet in the garage and find a 240 V transformer. If the company you bought it from sells their products in Europe its probably already available.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I can’t believe nobody has suggested the obvious. Put a 240 V outlet in the garage and find a 240 V transformer. If the company you bought it from sells their products in Europe its probably already available.

I can’t believe that you missed comment # 3 and 4 where that was already suggested.

 

[wanderer]

I can’t believe that you missed comment # 3 and 4 where that was already suggested.

I saw that - an AC transformer is what was suggested - a much different thing.

 

[MattT]

Is a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit code compliant?

Nope!

That bait wasn't meant for you

 

[RKCRLR]

I can’t believe nobody has suggested the obvious. Put a 240 V outlet in the garage and find a 240 V transformer. If the company you bought it from sells their products in Europe its probably already available.

My main concern about putting in a 240v outlet and using a 12 VDC power adapter is I would need to de-rate the 30 amp breaker to 20 amps (unless I use a 30 amp outlet which introduces more problems). I'm concerned about nuisance trips of the well pump. Other than that this approach makes the most sense.

Also, would putting in a 240v outlet drive me to needing ground rods?

Thanks

 

[RKCRLR]

The short answer is HELL NO that not compliant. That is the jack legged sort of stuff that gets people hurt and equipment damaged. What happens when someone unplugs from your extension cord and plugs in the new water filter or a light?


Walta

That is why I said put it in an enclosure but I understand your point.
Is there a practical way to hard wire a 12VDC power adapter into the 240v circuit?
Use spade terminals on a wall wart (in an enclosure)?
Use a power supply that has a cord and plug, cut off the plug, and hard wire it in?

Thanks

 

[Sevenhills1952]

I didn't read through all 37 replies but solution is simple.
Going out to my well house for submersible pump is 240v three wire. Two hots and neutral. So 120v each hot wire to neutral (that are 180deg out of phase). So what I did was wire from one hot leg to neutral to outlet. That I plug in a 60 watt lamp for a little heat in winter. Off of cut out relay, pump side, I ran two wires again 120v out through a hole drilled in side mounting a lamp socket, 25 watt red bulb. This way light on means pump's running. Over the years it's shown me I have a leak somewhere, a faucet left on, etc.
My point is simply wire one hot to neutral to an outlet box. There's your 120v source. Plug in the standard a.c. adapter, 120v to 12v. Or for a trouble light, heat light, etc.

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