HVAC service company pricing

[jmiller_2308]

Living in the Twin Cities area of MN I wonder if there is collusion or some other tacit agreement between the various HVAC service companies to **** their customers.

I'm on the edge of the cites so I can either have services from companies that serve the Twin Cities or go less then 20 miles to find companies from smaller towns.

What I've seen time and again is that the prices charged within the Twin Cities do vary quite a bit but even the lowest prices are often more then 2x what I can get from the small town contractors outside the twin cities.

So what gives? They are using the same parts and although I agree it may cost a bit more to operate in the Twin Cities for labor and other overhead but really 2x more expensive?

For example, today I had a "free" HVAC tuneup that I got while attending the state fair. The guy came out today and limited the tune up to just an A/C unit which was fine, it was "free". The end result was he wanted to sell me more than $2000 worth of fixes for my 23 year old A/C. He offered two lesser options but even still the cheapest was over $1000. Given the age of my A/C I asked if he could ball park a replacement and his guess was at least $10,000. Mind you, this is just for A/C!!!!!!!!!!!

I contrast this with a guy not from the Twin Cities putting a full furnace and A/C in my shop about 4 years ago for a total of $5800. And yes, similarly sized units. I can believe things went up in price but the prices quoted me today really seem like the "free" tuneup was nothing more than a loss leader to gouge me on other services.

Ok, one last bit of a rant. I have checked various companies before and quite literally I have seen an over 2x discrepancies in already exorbitant prices among various twin cities companies. The one correlation I seem to see is that the more the places advertise the higher their prices. It seems to me that if you just charged a fair price and did good work that it would be a ton better than advertising the heck out of everything and paying for that advertising by screwing the customer. It certainly isn't something that encourages me to be their loyal customer.

In any event, the "free" tune up was just another bit of education and of course I'm sticking with my guy from outside the twin cities and will remain loyal to him.

Is it this bad everywhere?

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

The places that give "free" tune ups are basically all scams.

I would really try and find one on word of mouth from someone you know. The places that advertise a lot are the ones I would go out of my way to avoid.

 

[bonneyman]

... I wonder if there is collusion or some other tacit agreement between the various HVAC service companies to **** their customers.

Is it this bad everywhere?

Sadly that is true in many cases.

 

[jmiller_2308]

The places that give "free" tune ups are basically all scams.

I would really try and find one on word of mouth from someone you know. The places that advertise a lot are the ones I would go out of my way to avoid.

I totally agree. My normal service guy is indeed someone that was recommended to me and he has served me well. Word of mouth is keeping him busier than he can actually handle.

I took advantage of the "free" tune up largely for an education experience and got exactly what I thought would happen. I'm really glad I have the guy I have and I hope he doesn't retire before I go under.

 

[jjrbus]

The real low life smash and grab types in Florida will damage your unit during the "free" inspection and hope you call them back.

Not only are they out to scam people the bulk of them don't know what they are doing! Where the competent people who charge fair prices are always busy and hard to find. Seems like every scammer, con artist and thief in N America dream is to move to Florida and rip off old people.

Don't take my word for it Google AC repair scams.

 

[Bretny]

They have to cover the "free" tune up some how. Now the real question is what did they actualy "tune up". I would expect they did nothing but inspect your wallet and get there foot in the door.

You have a 23yr old system. Since your paying someone to fix it i would spend a dime on repairing it. Replace it next issue you have.

 

[Jackfre]

From a marketing perspective the hardest thing for a contractor to do is get invited into the home. It is good business for a plumber or mechanic, once the faucet to toilet is fixed, to look around and discuss with the homeowner things he sees. They are not all crooks. I am surprised that a "free" anything would lead you to think that anything other than what happened would happen. You went in search of the lowest deal and found that you had a good deal with a reliable guy. Seems that you learned a lot at zero expense other than your time. There are fewer and fewer people doing this work today. For every five guys retiring out of hvac only one is entering. If you have a good guy who answers the phone and shows up with the right tools and knows how to use them I suggest that you tip him or his guy when they are there.

 

[danski0224]

Low cost or "free" stuff is just a way into your house to sell you something.

A legitimate AC clean and check should be at least $125, and double would be right there to cover travel time and somewhere around an hour of labor. Do note that some systems take at least 7 minutes to even reach max fan speed, some Bryant stuff can take 20 minutes if power is lost (take the door off to look inside).

The "$59.95" specials (and their counterparts) are just sales opportunities.

 

[jmiller_2308]

They have to cover the "free" tune up some how. Now the real question is what did they actualy "tune up". I would expect they did nothing but inspect your wallet and get there foot in the door.

You have a 23yr old system. Since your paying someone to fix it i would spend a dime on repairing it. Replace it next issue you have.

I spun a wheel at the state fair and won the "free" tune up as well as a $50 credit for additional service. My wife spun and one $50 credit. This was not some normally advertised special but was in theory actually worth something.

My plan had been to bring in my normal guy for a normal tune up but since I won a "free" tune up as well as had credit for anything that may have been found, I figured it was worth a try to see what they would do.

In reality, they did exactly as you said. They came in, looked at everything and came up with a big price to fix everything but didnt' actually do anything. They didn't even have a filter in their truck that could be used in my air exchanger so I didn't even get that much out of them.

These people are passing themselves off as reputable but the reality is they are clearly bait and switch. Unfortunately, from my experience, they are highly representative of what I have come to expect from all the big name places that advertise so hard.

The best thing out of the experience is that I finally did get my guy scheduled to do the regular maintenance next week.

 

[jmiller_2308]

From a marketing perspective the hardest thing for a contractor to do is get invited into the home. It is good business for a plumber or mechanic, once the faucet to toilet is fixed, to look around and discuss with the homeowner things he sees. They are not all crooks. I am surprised that a "free" anything would lead you to think that anything other than what happened would happen. You went in search of the lowest deal and found that you had a good deal with a reliable guy. Seems that you learned a lot at zero expense other than your time. There are fewer and fewer people doing this work today. For every five guys retiring out of hvac only one is entering. If you have a good guy who answers the phone and shows up with the right tools and knows how to use them I suggest that you tip him or his guy when they are there.

Not exactly. I did not go in search of a lowest deal. It was presented to me as something that I won by spinning a wheel at the state fair.

I believe you are correct that it is difficult to get in the door and that as such it is important to try to upsell for additional work. A respectable service company would however not do a bait and switch; they would do what they came to do and then suggest other work independent of what they were hired to do. That is unless of course it made sense to do the additional work at the same time. These bozos didn't even do the tuneup. They just came in and tried to sell me a bunch of services and never bothered to do what they promised. It is that type of behavior that gives all service people a bad rap.

I also see many of the shady business consolidating. The company that came out was actually a consolidation of 4 businesses. I think that in the twin cities all the smaller guys are getting gobbled by the big business folks that like to **** customers instead of provide a service. I am very glad that my normal guy remains small, respectable, more than competent, and that hopefully he remains in business for some time because these other folks are horrid.

 

[Bretny]

Thats typical on big names in my area as well. I wont buy oil from them and do my own boiler.

I know we are talking about HVAC but i buy my oil from the cheapest company possible..its never the big guys.

 

[jmiller_2308]

Low cost or "free" stuff is just a way into your house to sell you something.

A legitimate AC clean and check should be at least $125, and double would be right there to cover travel time and somewhere around an hour of labor. Do note that some systems take at least 7 minutes to even reach max fan speed, some Bryant stuff can take 20 minutes if power is lost (take the door off to look inside).

The "$59.95" specials (and their counterparts) are just sales opportunities.

Agree. Unfortunately I felt that winning a tune up was something better than the "free" or $59.99" offers and clearly I was way too optimistic. I actually thought they would give me the tune up instead of just an attempt at fleecing me.

I will continue to use my normal guy and will gladly pay him his fee. BTW: the normal fee for this service was going to start at $250 but be something like $240 if you join their club. SCAM! None of these fees were shown to me at the state fair or when I booked; only after they came to the door.

 

[Git]

No doubt, HVAC contractors want to get their foot in the door somehow.

I was so impressed with the Solar Contractor that I used a couple of years ago that when they branched out into HVAC work and offered a 'free' checkup, I took them up on it.

Tech arrived on time, acted very professional. I handed him the 3 filters that needed to be replaced and was included in the checkup. He was here about an hour and the end of it the only thing he could find wrong was that one of our outdoor condensers was a little off level, it had sunk a bit in the dirt planter.

I have never used a 'free' checkup from anyone prior to this, but since I had developed a relationship with this contractor, I had no doubts about them

https://www.baker-electric.com/

 

[dcg9381]

Maybe they'll check your dryer vent or offer to clean your ductwork...

I feel for these guys. It takes years to get licensed (around here anyway, I've looked into it) regardless of education level or what tests you pass. That makes it a limit-entry field where you're a grunt for a number of years.

And many manufacturers only want to sell to installers that carrier "only" their product line or require additional "certification" to be able to carry that product / warranty that product / limit cost competition.

In terms of things being more expensive in the city, I get it. Not only is rent higher in cities, permits, costs of doing business, insurance fees, bonds, business "license" fees - it all adds up.


There are big swings in HVAC costs on new construction - I can tell you that. Not sure it's all associated with being in the city. May be associated with a booming housing market around here and people not needing the work in a hot summer through..

 

[fitter30]

Service companies charge two different ways. One is a service charge (charge to drive to your house and maybe 15minutes) then time and materials. The other which is flat rate just like a car dealer. Their book said $150 for installing one lb of refrigerant + so much per lb added. Leak check added charge.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Sadly that is true in many cases.

In every trade, too. HVAC is the lowest paying and least profitable trade.

Tommy

 

[Jackfre]

In every trade, too. HVAC is the lowest paying and least profitable trade.

Tommy

Thanks for that, Tommy. In your experience, if you were advising a young person wanting to enter the trades, what do you see as the best paying trades with the best future as you can see it today?

 

[Jim greengo]

Heating and air service guys have to be plumbers and electricians to do their job,they make decent money once they get out on their own.

 

[CAAnderson]

Is it this bad everywhere?

Just to chime in and say I'm with everyone else here. 'Free' basically means 'Hidden motive that we're going to try and pull one over on you!'

If you're happy with your system, you don't need free stuff. If you're unhappy with it, seek out some quality (and appropriately priced) contractors

 

[danski0224]

In every trade, too. HVAC is the lowest paying and least profitable trade.

Tommy

That's a pretty broad brush there, but at least on the non-union residential HVAC side, as an employee, I would agree. Many of those companies have no problems charging the going rate though.

One problem is that HVAC has become a commodity. It is quite difficult to explain to a homeowner how their system is messed up, even though the box is "on" and appears to be magically creating hot or cold air.

The other issue is the lack of licensing requirements. This doesn't mean that a license will guarantee a good job, but it makes entry a little bit more difficult. Anyone with a set of snips, some foil tape, some flex duct and a jug of refrigerant in the back of a clapped out truck can call himself a HVAC contractor.

I just watched a so-called "pipefitter" (union 597 in this area) do all of the refrigeration piping in a new convenience store without using a lick of nitrogen during the brazing process... hacks are all over. Shortcuts to cut hours... or make yourself look good... and the customer pays the price.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

That's a pretty broad brush there, but at least on the non-union residential HVAC side, as an employee, I would agree. Many of those companies have no problems charging the going rate though.

One problem is that HVAC has become a commodity. It is quite difficult to explain to a homeowner how their system is messed up, even though the box is "on" and appears to be magically creating hot or cold air.

The other issue is the lack of licensing requirements. This doesn't mean that a license will guarantee a good job, but it makes entry a little bit more difficult. Anyone with a set of snips, some foil tape, some flex duct and a jug of refrigeranhttps://www.garagejournal.com/forum/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=8050547t in the back of a clapped out truck can call himself a HVAC contractor.

I just watched a so-called "pipefitter" (union 597 in this area) do all of the refrigeration piping in a new convenience store without using a lick of nitrogen during the brazing process... hacks are all over. Shortcuts to cut hours... or make yourself look good... and the customer pays the price.

NJ requires both a Master HVACR Contractor License and a Business license.

Yes, even within UA locals there are hacks.

Tommy

 

[fitter30]

Like with any trade there are industry standards and industry practices. Standards everything is done correctly but with companies pushing for speed, profits and cutting material cost work ends up as a practice. No difference than most things made today planned obsolescence.

 

[dcg9381]

In every trade, too. HVAC is the lowest paying and least profitable trade.

Tommy

Do you mean that as the HVAC shop owner or the journeyman who has to work for a licensed HVAC company owner for a few years?

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Do you mean that as the HVAC shop owner or the journeyman who has to work for a licensed HVAC company owner for a few years?

Both. The profit is a lot lower than you'd think and the payscale itself is the lowest of all the trades in the State. Ironworkers make more than the average HVAC Techs.

Tommy

 

[fitter30]

Like in any trade pay can very. Retired from a union company in the united association plumbers and pipefitters worked on industrial and commercial hvac. This trade is so varied from working on a drinking fountains to 2500 ton chillers to residential boilers to 2000 hp boilers to energy management ,grocery store refrigeration, medical gas systems and backflow devises to keep drinking water safe.

 

[bobbyjean]

sounds like free tire rotation-always running that special on some fluid change you dont need

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Like in any trade pay can very. Retired from a union company in the united association plumbers and pipefitters worked on industrial and commercial hvac. This trade is so varied from working on a drinking fountains to 2500 ton chillers to residential boilers to 2000 hp boilers to energy management ,grocery store refrigeration, medical gas systems and backflow devises to keep drinking water safe.

Former UA Local 475 here. I've worked on pretty much everything over the last 35 years.

Tommy