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So......I found this shear in the weeds

dkmc

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And it interests me mildly. The tag says 10 BWG which is a wee bit thinner than 10 gauge USG. I'd be a lot more interested if it was 48" width not 42". I'm probably not the only guy wondering why the hell they made the width 42" and not 48". And yes, I'm going to look it over closer and 'see' if it looks feasible to install top and bottom blades that are 3" wider on each side. After that insanity moment passes, I'll have to decide if its just to odd to mess with. It'd be more or less a hobby-tinker acquisition.
 

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Farmall450

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What a poor choice of sizing. Glad you're already thinking to add 2 more fingers. Still pretty cool, and I'm guessing it didn't cost much :beer:
 

lis2323

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I find 36”, 40”, and 52” are common sizes for sheet metal shears.


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dkmc

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What a poor choice of sizing. Glad you're already thinking to add 2 more fingers. Still pretty cool, and I'm guessing it didn't cost much :beer:

What do you think the maximum asking price would be for such an old implement? I am curious. Along with that, when I reveal the asking price, I'll also ask......should I get it?
 
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DocsMachine

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Because sheet metals didn't always come in what we know today as "standard" sizes. Heck, in a lot of places today, they start with a roll of steel sheet, that could be 18" wide, 22" wide, 29" wide, whatever. And a shear cuts it into fixed lengths before it's then fed into whatever second machine there is in the line.

If that were anywhere near me, and the owner wasn't asking a mint, it'd already be on my trailer. :D

Doc.
 
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dkmc

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Because sheet metals didn't always come in what we know today as "standard" sizes. Heck, in a lot of places today, they start with a roll of steel sheet, that could be 18" wide, 22" wide, 29" wide, whatever. And a shear cuts it into fixed lengths before it's then fed into whatever second machine there is in the line.

If that were anywhere near me, and the owner wasn't asking a mint, it'd already be on my trailer. :D

Doc.

What's a "mint" Doc?
But..........Wait........there's more!
 

matt_i

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What do you think the maximum asking price would be for such an old implement? I am curious. Along with that, when I reveal the asking price, I'll also ask......should I get it?

Ok, I'll bite. Lets say its 2000 lbs and 0.05/lb scrap price. That's $100 which seems generous unless its free rigging out of the swamp. Should you get it...depends on the amoun of free time you have to disassemble and clean it all back up to a working machine, probably send the blades out for grinding back to new edges is going to be your biggest expense.
 

lis2323

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For 10 gauge capacity I’d guess at least 4000 pounds. 5-6 thousand is possible.


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neophyte

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I find 36”, 40”, and 52” are common sizes for sheet metal shears.


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But........WHY is that???
Sheet metal comes in standard sizes.......4 x 8, 4 x 10, 5 x 10 ??

And why is my really old Niagra jump shear 31" not 36??

As the saying goes;
“The nice thing about standards is there are so many to choose from”

From Wikipedia
“Finally, the tinplates were packed in boxes of 112 sheets ready for sale. Single plates were 14 inches by 20 inches; doubles twice that. A box weighed approximately a hundredweight.”
“Nevertheless, there were still 518 mills in operation in 1937, including 224 belonging to Richard Thomas & Co. However the traditional 'pack mill' had been overtaken by the improved 'strip mill', of which the first in Great Britain was built by Richard Thomas & Co. in the late 1930s. Strip mills rendered the old pack mills obsolete and the last of them closed in about the 1960s.”


Standard sheet metal sizes have changed over time, and different shear widths would have been needed depending on whether the shesr was just used for straight 90 degree cuts, or 45 degree cuts.
Adding a few inches to the width if a shear doesn’t massively add weight or bulk, but doubling the width if a shear for significantly wider cuts would likely far more than double the weight of the shear.
Even a hundred years ago, there were many small manufacturing facilities that were still located in multy story buildings with wood floors, so buying a shear that was just above the capacity that was needed would be far preferable to buying a significantly heavier and wider shear.
According to the description above, a “double” sheet size standard would have been 28”x40”, so a 42” shear would have allowed for sheats that were;
just slightly oversized,
Needed to be cut at a slight angle,
It would have allowed the sheets to be shifted slightly left or right to prevent excessive wear on the shear blades at the point were the edge of the sheet usually got cut.
A 42” cutting width would also allow the cutting of a 45 degree sngle on a 28” width sheet.
 

gorilla

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I'm not sure from the photos but I think that's an open frame shear, that allows you to feed sheets in on the X axis. That is parallel to the blade not perpendicular. This allows you to cut a strip any length you want. Not too common I've only seen a couple usually old at auctions.
 

crguy

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Why sweat the odd width? How much bigger sheet metal do you need to cut?

It looks like a full winter project and several cans of Kroil to me.

I get by fine with a 24" shear in my shop. Very seldom need anything bigger. When I do I go to the local sheet metal shop for a cut to size piece.
 

dr_clyde

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I’d personally pass, that looks like a hell of a lot of work for a shear that doesn’t cut down a full sheet.

My shear is 10’ wide and rated for 10ga, and there are times I wish I had 12’. But your needs may be different.

If space is a premium, I’d keep looking for a cherry 48”-60”.
 
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dkmc

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So I went back yesterday.......with an actual tape measure.....and checked.
It's 46" across the blades.......that are there. Except, even better, there's room beyond whats there that seems to be almost 49". Seems someones messed with the blades, or whatever. I see in the back on the right side, the top blade stops short of the last mounting screw. And there's plenty of clearance between the side housings for a 48" sheet to pass thru. This is getting more interesting.
Except I'm not looking forward to the sticker shock associated with the cost of replacement blades of the correct length. Anyone happen to have a source for shear blade manufacturers? I guess it's google time.
The owner said he'd deliver it (about a 15 mile trip) for $350 total.
:dunno:
 

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dr_clyde

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I mean, if you’re bored and want a project then sure. If you’re wanting to make money with it then that’s a different story.

That price isn’t unreasonable for delivered.
 
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dkmc

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I mean, if you’re bored and want a project then sure. If you’re wanting to make money with it then that’s a different story.

That price isn’t unreasonable for delivered.

So you're saying a guy can't make money with that machine?
Don't take that as a snide tone, I'm genuinely interested why you think that.
I always take the 'you can learn something new every day' approach.
 

rsanter

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That is one big project, but for the asking price delivered I’m not sure I could pass that up.
 
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dkmc

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That is one big project, but for the asking price delivered I’m not sure I could pass that up.

That always seems to be what gets me in trouble!
:bounce:

But unless there's a big giant crack someplace I'm not seeing, it really doesn't seem like that
big of a project. A gallon of Kroil (ha!) and some wire brushing the flaked paint, and UN-sticking the crank shaft...and yer good. Besides the hidden problems.......ha.
Also helps that I have a shop with forklifts, etc. as opposed to a home garage shop.
 
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dr_clyde

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So you're saying a guy can't make money with that machine?
Don't take that as a snide tone, I'm genuinely interested why you think that.
I always take the 'you can learn something new every day' approach.

It all boils down to how you value your time.

If you can take your shop rate, multiply it by the hours it takes to make this shear operable and in good shape and that dollar figure is less than the cost of a good used shear, than maybe you can.

You also have the opportunity cost of not working on other, more profitable work to consider.

I look at that shear, the amount of time and extra money it would take, and what I can buy a good shear for today and the math doesn’t work for me.

A few thousand bucks buys a really nice used shear in that size. I can make more money in my shop doing work than restoring a shear.

If it’s a hobby, or for a home shop then it’s a totally different story. A labor of love is very different than a business asset that has to earn or leave.
 

isb cornbinder

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If that shear was close to Vancouver, BC, it would be in my shop in a few hours. The cast iron structure is able to stand the weathering. Shearing edges can be reground at a reasonable price.
My first trade was sheetmetal. This size shear was not uncommon. Our shop had a few shears from 18 inches to a big power shear of 120 inches.
I missed out on a Brown Boggs 48 inch gap shear, I went to view it and I thought I left the impression I was going to buy it for the seller's $200 asking price. The seller went on a 6 week holiday the next day and forgot about my visit. No problem. The deal was too good to turn down, but the shear was not something I need or have free space for. So, I bought a 48-Pexto box and pan brake to replace a 52 inch plain 20 gauge brake that went to a good home.
 
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dkmc

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It all boils down to how you value your time.

If you can take your shop rate, multiply it by the hours it takes to make this shear operable and in good shape and that dollar figure is less than the cost of a good used shear, than maybe you can.

You also have the opportunity cost of not working on other, more profitable work to consider.

I look at that shear, the amount of time and extra money it would take, and what I can buy a good shear for today and the math doesn’t work for me.

A few thousand bucks buys a really nice used shear in that size. I can make more money in my shop doing work than restoring a shear.

If it’s a hobby, or for a home shop then it’s a totally different story. A labor of love is very different than a business asset that has to earn or leave.

Well, I understand that. Standard business practice, and all. But in the 40 years I've been in business, nothing has ever seemed to be standard practice.
I'm a 1 man show, low overhead, and have resurrected many machines over the years instead of going to the bank to buy new or used where a dealer makes a profit on top of the cost of the machine. Plus I enjoy the challenge of the repair and fix up. Not always, but I've mostly been able to get my investment of time and parts back plus profit from paying jobs done on the re-claimed equipment. I should say, you probably wouldn't believe some of the restoration and even re-engineering projects I've gotten myself into, and out of. It kinda comes naturally to me. I would never suggest someone without a knack for tinkering and repairing machinery delve into equipping their shop this way. But it's worked out well for me. Thanks for your viewpoint!
 
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dr_clyde

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I should also point out that I really enjoy fixing up old machinery, but just cannot justify the time right now.

If you have the time, desire, resources and ability, I see no reason why you shouldn’t redo it.
 

metlmunchr

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Dan, I'd have to agree with Clyde on that one. I'd say offhand that critter is somewhere between 80 and 100 years old. Good chance the guide ways are worn to the point where they'd have to be reworked to maintain blade clearance. Probably more than a little slop in the rotating joints as well, and there's a lot of time and more than a few bucks in material to remake them considering they're likely split bronze bushings.

Then, there's no squaring arm. An absolute necessity on a shear IMO. Easy enough to build a passable one, but more material and more time.

Can't tell whether there's a backgauge or not, but if not, its a major job to build even a manual crank operated one. I've seen some old shears that came with a backgauge consisting of a couple pieces of round stock, a piece of angle, and some brackets to attach the angle to the round and let it slide and clamp after positioning it manually. Not even worth messing with unless you're setting up to cut multiple pieces to the same width.

A set of blades would be seriously expensive as good ones are made from D2. Never bought any, but I'd guess between the material itself which is expensive as hell, plus machining, heat treat, and grinding, I'd doubt you could buy a pair of four footers for a thousand bucks, particularly since these would be custom for a shear that's not been in wide use since you and I were kids.

A quick look on ebay shows a 52" x 12ga Wysong mechanical with a squaring arm and manual crank backgauge for $3295 BIN in PA, and a 6 ft X 11 ga Pearson hydraulic with squaring arm and front operated power backgauge for $4000 BIN in CT.

We've got a 6 ft X 16 ga Wysong mechanical that we used daily for a dozen years in a cut to length line for making ductwork and it never gave a minute's problem. Also have a 12 ft X 1/4" Pearson (made in UK) that we bought in the early 90's when it was about 10 years old, and it has been totally trouble free as well.

Most places doing production shearing prefer mechanicals because they're much faster than hydraulics, but a hydraulic is more "gentle" on itself and also has much less chance of having been used in an operation making a thousand cuts per day for weeks on end. In a job shop, the additional time is inconsequential.

Anyhoo, given what you can spend and get a somewhat modern shear of similar width and capacity, it'd be real hard for me to justify putting any time or money into the one in the pic even if it was a gift and delivered for free.
 
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dkmc

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Cliff,
Your logic is always highly regarded and you brought up some points (other wear points) that I haven't considered. Thank You for taking the time to point out the possible pitfalls!
There is a hand cranked back gauge on the machine.
 

OccupantRJ

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Get it, you know you want it! You are as bad at resisting an old machine as I am. I am actually selling the shop built power shear that I have this week. Too bad you are not closer. A local GJ member is scheduled to come this week.
 

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dkmc

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Get it, you know you want it! You are as bad at resisting an old machine as I am. I am actually selling the shop built power shear that I have this week. Too bad you are not closer. A local GJ member is scheduled to come this week.

RJ I remember your shear. But I forgot, did you build it? Its a nice piece! Its hard to resist the old Niagara. Especially with delivery included. Buying a better one for 10 times the money might be the smarter move I dunno. But any used machine can have problems.
 

OccupantRJ

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I did not build this shear, although whoever did knew what they were doing, for sure. I have never regretted rebuilding an old machine, but as mentioned, the ability to sharpen and use the blades would be my main concern. Guides and such can usually be dealt with with turcite, brazing and machining, etc. I may not be a good reference, as I like a good refurb challenge. See flywheel grinder example below.
 

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dkmc

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Yes, I'm going to measure the blades and get a quote on new longer ones, as well as just the D2 material. That might scare me off.......or not. Nice job on the Flywheel machine!
 

OccupantRJ

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The price of the D2 alone will likely take your breath. Be afraid. Be very afraid. I am tight. I would set it up to be used for a more narrow cut and use it as such. Otherwise I would pass. The first thing I look at in a project consideration is the big ticket expenditures. A case in point, on this saw, the biggest expense to be able to use it is a new 1 inch wide blade. It cuts as it is. The rest is mostly elbow grease and cosmetics. It has been sitting there since 2004 waiting for me to get to it. If the vise clamping rod was freed up, it is runnable right now.
 

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dkmc

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My intent is to use it. I can't really remember, but I think it's been outside for about 3 years now. It's owned by an employee of one of my customers. Restorable? Don't know at this point, but debating and investigating the possibility of getting it in use-able condition.
I don't see any sand blasting or 3 coats of Imron happening with this machine....
Do they even still sell Imron paint??
 
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dkmc

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The price of the D2 alone will likely take your breath. Be afraid. Be very afraid. I am tight. I would set it up to be used for a more narrow cut and use it as such. Otherwise I would pass. The first thing I look at in a project consideration is the big ticket expenditures.

I agree completely. I wonder if the blades HAVE to be one continuous piece?
If I could use 3 pieces 16.330 inches long, I could grind them myself on my surface grinder. But 'for now' using it with the 46" blades it has would be my option. And 'keep and eye out' for D2 material....not a lot of hope with that, although I have a small pile of D2 rounds I got for free years ago. Several 3" and 4" dia x 2-3ft bars. Wrong shape!
 

metlmunchr

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The blades can be multiple piece, and all the ones I've seen on long shears are made that way. Our 12 ft Pearson has 3 piece blades. We bought and later sold a 10 ft X 1/4" Wysong, and IIRC it had 2 piece blades.

I'd suspect the difficulty in controlling distortion during heat treat is a major reason for multi piece blades.

Used to be, high carbon high chrome (D2) blades were an option on shears. Not sure if that's still the case or not. But, there's definitely some cheaper option for blades, and for non-production use they'd likely work just fine.

If you decide to go ahead with it, you could send a message to Cash on Practical Machinist and he can likely tell you what other material is used. Blades of various types is all they make, and he seems very knowledgeable and always helpful on technical questions.
 
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dkmc

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Thanks Cliff!
:thumbup:

Yes, I was wondering how they would control warping on a 49" long blade.
Good to hear there are multi-piece units out there...
 
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dkmc

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A case in point, on this saw,

Wow, you have baaaack burner projects just like I do. Some of them, I don't even see anymore. Like the guy's that have the big wooden Cabin Cruisers in their side yards for 10-15 years.......totally invisible at this point.
That IS a nice saw, neighboring business has one just like it. One of their guys put the blade on upside down once....the teeth cut the flange off the idler wheel. Doall wanted $850 for a new wheel. I machined it down, left a small flange, still working today.
 

OccupantRJ

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Wow, you have baaaack burner projects just like I do. Some of them, I don't even see anymore. Like the guy's that have the big wooden Cabin Cruisers in their side yards for 10-15 years.......totally invisible at this point.
That IS a nice saw, neighboring business has one just like it. One of their guys put the blade on upside down once....the teeth cut the flange off the idler wheel. Doall wanted $850 for a new wheel. I machined it down, left a small flange, still working today.

Yep, I collected machines before retirement so I would stay busy these days. I have 3 Bridgeports and the saw in the lineup for now. Presently working with the flywheel grinder.
 

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cvairwerks

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A case in point, on this saw, the biggest expense to be able to use it is a new 1 inch wide blade. It cuts as it is. The rest is mostly elbow grease and cosmetics. It has been sitting there since 2004 waiting for me to get to it. If the vise clamping rod was freed up, it is runnable right now.

Try bandsawbladesdirect.com for you blades. For example, an 8' Classic Pro blade, 1"x .035" 5/8 tpi is only $47. They've always been quick to make mine up and get them in transit.
 
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