Man, I'm not super high on Icon, not super low on them either, but I love videos like this. This makes me want to go spend 1800 dollars just to have a weekend worth of ******* around with my new tools
Icon tools are coming spring/summer 2019
- Thread starter Fedwrench
- Start date
Man, I'm not super high on Icon, not super low on them either, but I love videos like this. This makes me want to go spend 1800 dollars just to have a weekend worth of ******* around with my new tools
WittHay
Well-known member
A Proto/Mac wrench is different than a Snap-on which is different than Wright which is different than SK which is different than Williams.
Harbor Freight should have taken a Garage Journal poll to decide which brand to copy or clone before heading over to Taiwan. I would have voted for the Proto/Mac style as the DeWalt Taiwan version has changed.
I dont need the HF Icon Snap-on copy's because the Canadian Tire Maximum version is cheaper and is actually quite good
WittHay
Well-known member
Okay i guess we need a jack lesson about business ethics. For years jacks had rails that angled in a straight line.
Snap-on introduces a low profile version. Hf goes to the Chinese assembly plant and asks to to make some minor changes to the rails and paint the jack a different color. The biggest thing is for the Chinese to sell HF the jack at a lower cost because they are going to buy container loads more than Snap-on.
Is this right or wrong? i guess its okay in the business world if the Chinese agree and you can win any positional lawsuits
Some of the low profile choices here are Napa, Sunex and Jet. All look kinda similar but different than Snap-on. Might even come out of the same factory but there are legal business agreements for this to happen. Basically rebranding not copying. No lawsuits involved
Attachments
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Yeh you can copy some design points that part of function and seems make practical sense but when start copy style details and part number formatting and use a name with a similar ring it blatant cheating.
If they had taken best design elements from snapon, mac, proto, facom, stahlwille, koken and blended them together with their own finish detialing style they would of done something clever. as is they gone easy route of using snapon for copying and marketing hype of icon beats snapon blah blah blah .
Yeh you can copy some design points that part of function and seems make practical sense but when start copy style details and part number formatting and use a name with a similar ring it blatant cheating.
If they had taken best design elements from snapon, mac, proto, facom, stahlwille, koken and blended them together with their own finish detialing style they would of done something clever. as is they gone easy route of using snapon for copying and marketing hype of icon beats snapon blah blah blah .
Haven't you ever read a Snap on thread on GJ? Some people will swear that SO is worth the extra cost just because of the large size markings. Lol.
Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app
What large size markings lol
HF needed copy that idea from gearwrench as they about one of best for that .
Even Tekton took that idea on in the revision socket design .
That the point really, so much they could of done that been good over a direct style copy .
RonnieC
Well-known member
My local HF put out their Icon stuff this weekend. They had chained-down display pieces of the comfort-grip and non-comfort-grip 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2" ratchets. The comfort-grip 3/8" had a reverse lever that got hung up switching back and forth, and the 1/4" non-comfort-grip had a drag that was about 3 or 4 times what it should have been.
I had been interested to see how these Icon tools might turn out, but these are a no-go for me.
I had been interested to see how these Icon tools might turn out, but these are a no-go for me.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
Whatever uniqueness we see in wrenches is cosmetic these days. Obviously, such cosmetic differences are very important to some people.
Ages ago, some manufacturers stamped whatever specific tool steel alloy they used to make the wrench. That would actually be somewhat informative but it seems such information didn't boost sales.
Stealing cosmetic differences for marketing advantage is a time honored tradition. Otherwise, only Cadillacs would have had fins.
kythri
Well-known member
If you're insinuating Snap-on did something unique with the jack rails, you're full of it.
Further, if you're insinuating that the reason HF can sell that jack for significantly cheaper than Snap-on has to do with quantities purchased rather than ridiculously huge prestige-brand-name markup, you're even more full of it.
Is it right or wrong? Well, I'd say that patent law says it's right. I'd say that the courts that slapped Snap-on's claims that any feature of their version of the Chinese jack was in any way unique was right, too.
It's too bad that they didn't innovate, and produce something truly unique and worthy of new (and protectable) patent, instead of just buying a Chinese jack, painting it red, and tacking on an exorbitant markup. They could have avoided the curtains being pulled back to reveal the Wizard of Snap-Oz.
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Nineeightyone
Well-known member
Even though my store isn't listed as an ICON store, I stopped in for a couple little items and we have the ICON hand tools on display. They don't seem awful, in fact for the money they seem pretty decent. With that said, I wasn't the biggest fan of the feel of the ratchets, backdrag and "ratcheting" feedback felt a little weaker than I'm used to. However, the length on them was pretty nice, they were on the longer side of ratchets I've personally handled, similar to Tekton's offerings.
If I come into a situation where I need to replace a ratchet, I'll definitely be thinking about the ICON line, though it's mostly for ease of warranty. Given the choice, I'd spend similar (less?!) money on the Tekton, if it were available locally. Shipping for a warranty makes me leary though, which it seems is the case as well for the ICON ratchets as well?
If I come into a situation where I need to replace a ratchet, I'll definitely be thinking about the ICON line, though it's mostly for ease of warranty. Given the choice, I'd spend similar (less?!) money on the Tekton, if it were available locally. Shipping for a warranty makes me leary though, which it seems is the case as well for the ICON ratchets as well?
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
Sure, but for SOME REASON Snap-on didn't get a contract protecting "their" design.
Howcum?
Might exclusive rights have cost a few bucks extra?
dagofast
Well-known member
This might not be the thread for it, but MANY years ago, I worked in a shop that had a very old SO floor jack. One day, it quit working and the Snap On man brought out a brand new jack to replace it! Pretty cool, eh?
So a few months later, I bought a very expensive Snap On floor jack from that same guy because of the future support that Snap On promised to provide. Fast forward to 25 years or so later, it would no longer pump up. I'm now retired, so I tried to get support from a Snap On truck who covered the territory where I lived; No go, the guy ain't even slightly interested in my problems. Okay, fair play, he wants to make a living, not fool around with some old guy that hasn't ever bought anything from him. So I called Snap On directly; And I was told nope. No parts available, no longer supported. Buy a new jack, end of story. Well that was disappointing. Just left high and dry by the mighty Snap On Corporation.
So I tore it apart hoping maybe an o-ring might save the day and did a little more sleuthing and came to find out Snap On never built the damn jack anyway. They bought it from Lincoln, slapped their name on it and up-charged the hell out of me. So I went to Lincoln, bought the needed rebuild parts and the jack was soon back in business.
So when I now hear the stories about Snap On suing HF and losing over a Chinese jack they pulled the same **** with? Yeah, I laugh and cheer for HF winning. Why? That should be obvious. The pricks at Snap On picked my pocket once and I haven't forgotten. And anyone that takes Snap On's side on this jack issue is either a blind SO fanboy or unwilling to admit they got screwed when they overpaid for an ordinary jack with the vaunted Snap On name on it.
I consider myself fortunate. HF just built a brand spankin' new store a mile and half from my house. I get better support from them than I've gotten from Snap on or Sears. They save me a ton of money up front on identical or nearly identical items. Why would I not buy from them?
So a few months later, I bought a very expensive Snap On floor jack from that same guy because of the future support that Snap On promised to provide. Fast forward to 25 years or so later, it would no longer pump up. I'm now retired, so I tried to get support from a Snap On truck who covered the territory where I lived; No go, the guy ain't even slightly interested in my problems. Okay, fair play, he wants to make a living, not fool around with some old guy that hasn't ever bought anything from him. So I called Snap On directly; And I was told nope. No parts available, no longer supported. Buy a new jack, end of story. Well that was disappointing. Just left high and dry by the mighty Snap On Corporation.
So I tore it apart hoping maybe an o-ring might save the day and did a little more sleuthing and came to find out Snap On never built the damn jack anyway. They bought it from Lincoln, slapped their name on it and up-charged the hell out of me. So I went to Lincoln, bought the needed rebuild parts and the jack was soon back in business.
So when I now hear the stories about Snap On suing HF and losing over a Chinese jack they pulled the same **** with? Yeah, I laugh and cheer for HF winning. Why? That should be obvious. The pricks at Snap On picked my pocket once and I haven't forgotten. And anyone that takes Snap On's side on this jack issue is either a blind SO fanboy or unwilling to admit they got screwed when they overpaid for an ordinary jack with the vaunted Snap On name on it.
I consider myself fortunate. HF just built a brand spankin' new store a mile and half from my house. I get better support from them than I've gotten from Snap on or Sears. They save me a ton of money up front on identical or nearly identical items. Why would I not buy from them?
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General Geoff
Well-known member
Sounds like a customer support specialist could have spent an extra 10 minutes to research the origins of the jack model you had and at least referred you to the Lincoln make/model equivalent and parts availability from them.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Could have, but did not. There are brands I avoid, and others I refuse to do business with - due to poor customer service or dodging legitimate warranty claims. SO customer service is typically excellent, but sometimes they'll toss you a curve-ball.
SO screwed up on that one. They've done similar things to me; which is a reason I limit/consider what I buy now. For instance, I'll never buy MAC anything, ever, because of how I've been treated by dealers. If MAC is the only one in town the a specific tool, I'd have to do without.
and more than likely had a happy customer vs one who is pissed off and won't soon forget it.
seems to me they let snap on do all the exspensive R&D and then just copy the companys whole line , i carnt see the steel quality being as good and the production wont be up to snap on's standard . look like them they may but perform like them ,no way .
bubinga
Well-known member
A few others have mentioned this.
I'm wondering if a good lube would fix this? Super lube is what SO uses IIRC?
bubinga
Well-known member
Boy, you'd think they would just exchange the ratchets at the store, (HF) since the are sold single.
kythri
Well-known member
Yeah, expensive R&D like coming up with the idea for sockets, for ratchets, for quick-release on ratchets...oh, wait a minute...
I should really invest in a degree in armchair metallurgy. Apparently, they teach you how to identify steel alloys by sight and smell.
Boy, you'd think they would just exchange the ratchets at the store, (HF) since the are sold single.
They will. People are (willfully?) misunderstanding how the toolbox line is going to be supported and applying that to the hand tools.
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bubinga
Well-known member
Boy, you'd think they would just exchange the ratchets at the store, (HF) since the are sold single.
Oh, OK, good to know.
Will they replace the long pattern ratchet wrenches, and sockets in the store too?
Maybe Snap On had to sue, just to save face, over getting caught selling a Chinese made jack, for $650.
Maybe Snap On had to sue, just to save face, over getting caught selling a Chinese made jack, for $650.
Nah, HFs prices are way out of line. SO would never charge way more for a product than what it should be
Mikeske
Well-known member
Yes they do what they currently do with anything else in the store grab a set pull the one needed hand you the replacement and then take the remanded of the set and broken tool to the managers office. That’s according to the manager at my local store.
bubinga
Well-known member
OK, Thanks, Good Tip.
I checked these tools out today at the store. Also watched several youtube comparison videos between Icon, Pittsburgh pro, Carlyle, snap-on, etc.
This is a total money grab by harbor freight. They see a market opportunity to fill a niche where backyard mechanics can feel special with "professional" tools that are bought at relatively bargain prices. That's it. That's all this is.
Nobody on here can seriously claim these are a true cut above the Pittsburgh pro or even the stupid Quinn line. The prices are a premium though. This is pure marketing at work. Fall far it if it makes you feel better but I'll wait till my Pittsburgh pro stuff starts consistently breaking on me.
This is a total money grab by harbor freight. They see a market opportunity to fill a niche where backyard mechanics can feel special with "professional" tools that are bought at relatively bargain prices. That's it. That's all this is.
Nobody on here can seriously claim these are a true cut above the Pittsburgh pro or even the stupid Quinn line. The prices are a premium though. This is pure marketing at work. Fall far it if it makes you feel better but I'll wait till my Pittsburgh pro stuff starts consistently breaking on me.
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General Geoff
Well-known member
Bigblue&Goldie
Well-known member
I'll probably never buy any of the current ICON tools, but I feel they are definitely a cut above their current offerings. I have a pair of the Pittsburgh Pro flex head ratchets and I feel the new ICON stuff is nicer. The wrenches are significantly nicer than anything they've ever offered. Most ICON stuff is definitely overpriced, but their ratcheting wrenches are a decent deal in my opinion considering just about every ratcheting wrench on the market comes from Taiwan.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
Patent protection allows a company a 20 year monopoly on their R&D, expensive or not. That's the deal, let the patent holder make the most of it.
As far as Snap-on's Chinese jack goes, I expect they're getting the same quality steel and production as Harbor Freight. And, I wonder, did Snap-on actually design anything on their Chinese jack besides the logo?
Minnesota Steve
Well-known member
I noticed the same problem with the 1/4" non-comfort-grip... the bag drag on the ratchet was incredibly stiff. I could barely turn it just using my fingers. The 3/8" wasn't so bad, and the comfort grip ratchets seemed normal.
kythri
Well-known member
How does one test/gauge back-drag in-store, without a socket on a fastener?
DSLTRK
Well-known member
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DSLTRK
Well-known member
The 1/4" fixed head versions do have a stiff mechanism. I also am not impressed with the head dimensions. It is very 'chunky', reminiscent of a Snap-On 830 series.
I think a work in with a drill and a spring clipping would fix the issue.
ptgarcia
Well-known member
What makes you guys so sure Harbor Freight copied anyone? How do you know they didn't just slap their name onto an already developed product presented to them by the manufacturer?
Parrothead
Well-known member
You mean like Snap-on slapping their name on the 48 piece thread restorer kit and charging literally 3x more than everyone else? At least they buy it from Lang, so that’s slightly better.
Back to Icon -
I’m interested to see what ends up happening to the Pittsburgh Pro brand and the Icon brand with product placement.
The most damning thing to me was the YouTube video of the breaker bars. The Icon won, but only by 8ft lbs. For the price difference, there’s no way I’d buy the Icon. None. After eligible coupons... $45 vs $16 for essentially the same performance with a different handle? Pass.
Parrothead
Well-known member
That’s much more likely. They sourced an already available product, rebranded it, made it unique, and sent it on it’s way.
If you’ve ever shopped at Menards, you could get the same HF tools there rebranded Performax or Tool Shop. They’ve eliminated almost all of those brands now, but for a long time that was true.
DSLTRK
Well-known member
I said that almost two weeks ago. The only cad drawings HF sent ANY Taiwanese company was the 'ICON' text and logo design, and the ratchet selector design, specifically to copy the Dual80 lever.
The only thing I can see they copied or blatantly had there manufacturer mimic was SO’s packaging (sockets/wrench) and the font used on the wrenches for sure, I didn’t look at the sockets. Outside of that, there isn’t anything innovative with the Icon hand tool line, the same ratchet mechanism/wrench grip can be found across multiple brands.
In regards to the backdrag comments, most ratchets get much better with minimal use. I would put very little concern into a ratchet sitting on the shelf in regards to how the mechanism feels in your hand.
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I stopped by last week and checked out the new ICON tools at my local Harbor Freight. I've always been a fan of my Gearwrench brand wrenches due to the finer teeth and smooth operation. The only issue I've ever had with them is that some of my older ones will lock up every now and then. I'll put them on a bolt or nut, and move them back and forth and they unlock. I've used them for years, though, so a few of the common sizes are likely nearing the end of their useful life. I was surprised when I stuck my finger in the ICON ratchet wrenches to give them a spin. They felt like they had considerably fewer teeth than the Gearwrench brand, and they seemed to have more drag or resistance. Honestly, they didn't feel any different than the Pittsburgh versions. I expected them to have a higher tooth count, and feel more like the Gearwrench product. I'm a huge Harbor Freight fan, but I doubt I'll even consider the ICON wrenches, especially at that price point.
powertrip
Well-known member
The ratcheting wrenches are definitely way above the Pittsburgh versions. They are that nice. I think the tools look good, no matter who they copied. If I didn't all ready have USA made Craftsman reversible ratcheting wrenches, I'd buy these. Money Grab, that's hilarious. Companies are in business to make money and filling a niche is what that is all about whether you think that niche is foolish or not. If there is money to be made then companies are going to try to fill that niche.