5ubtle
Well-known member
A basic telling of the Robertson Screw story for "tool experts" in training. The video author is not a "tool guy".
Robertson vs Phillips Screw Story
- Thread starter 5ubtle
- Start date
A basic telling of the Robertson Screw story for "tool experts" in training. The video author is not a "tool guy".
Miss the Pontiacs
Well-known member
Interesting story. But I have to be truthful. I think the Robertson is superior. I’m guessing this thread has been done before, but so what.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Comprehend that prior to Philips being introduced, screws were driven in such a ****** way that Philips was considered an improvement.
Philips is objectively garbage. It is literally designed to cam-out and ruin the screw head.
Philips is objectively garbage. It is literally designed to cam-out and ruin the screw head.
giants
Banned
I saw that video.
He implied that torx and other more contemporary screws were made by the company that took over Phillips.
It's not in dispute that Phillips screws cam out easily, but the justification (rationalization?) is that camming out the screw prevents damage to the underlying threads.
Are torx superior to Robertson?
This Canadian, a Robertson lover, seemed to admit that torx are at least as good as Robertson.
His local Canadian big box store had rows and rows of Robertson screws, and a small 1/2 section for torx, which are more expensive.
I checked Lowe's and Home Depot; the latter sells Robertson screwdrivers (made by Klein), but neither sells Robertson screws.
Curiously, Japanese electronics for computers and for auto parts (eg EGR valves and ide air control valves) use JIS (Japanese Industrial Screws) which are vulnerable to camming on the first try with an American Phillips screw and sometimes a first try with a JIS screwdriver. I'm speaking from personal experience. Anyone know why the Japanese copied a sloppy design?
He implied that torx and other more contemporary screws were made by the company that took over Phillips.
It's not in dispute that Phillips screws cam out easily, but the justification (rationalization?) is that camming out the screw prevents damage to the underlying threads.
Are torx superior to Robertson?
This Canadian, a Robertson lover, seemed to admit that torx are at least as good as Robertson.
His local Canadian big box store had rows and rows of Robertson screws, and a small 1/2 section for torx, which are more expensive.
I checked Lowe's and Home Depot; the latter sells Robertson screwdrivers (made by Klein), but neither sells Robertson screws.
Curiously, Japanese electronics for computers and for auto parts (eg EGR valves and ide air control valves) use JIS (Japanese Industrial Screws) which are vulnerable to camming on the first try with an American Phillips screw and sometimes a first try with a JIS screwdriver. I'm speaking from personal experience. Anyone know why the Japanese copied a sloppy design?
n8n
Well-known member
IME a JIS cross head is not all that susceptible to camming out when used with a good quality JIS driver (and in fact the JIS drivers work better on Phillips heads than actual Phillips drivers) they are only inferior when compared to "straight" recesses like Robertson, Torx, hex recess, XZN, etc. I tend to lately work on a lot of old stereo gear and I love my Vessel JIS bits.
Downwindtracker 2
Well-known member
Just tonight, at a rockhounding club meeting no less,,we were talking about how poorly made Robertson screws, bits, and screwdrivers are now . Talk about being spoiled.
I don't consider Torx a replacement for Robertson. They are no where near as handy.
I don't consider Torx a replacement for Robertson. They are no where near as handy.
giants
Banned
Last week, my instructor suspected an EGR clog on my Toyota. He suggested that I clean the entire EGR system when I had a chance. I have a newer (6 month old?) Toyota/Denso EGR valve with one JIS screw holding part of a pipe, which was not clogged. I used my Vessel Impacta, without a hammer, to loosen it. I proceeded to cam it out.
I have Vampliers that I could have used to remove it, but was in a rush to reinstall the EGR system in my daily driver.
Turned out that everything was fine EGR-wise, ie no clogs.
I've also had JIS screws cam out on junkyard Toyota IACs (idle air control valves) numerous times. The challenge is that the working space is small and that only stubby JIS screwdrivers (none of which are Impacta) can fit. The solution, it seems, is to spend 30 minutes removing the entire unit in question, spray penetrating oil on the JIS screws, then use an Impacta and hammer to remove them. The drama almost makes it worth it to spend $200 to buy a new IAC. Sigh.
For years I love putting Roberston screws into wood crates that came from outside Canada that have back for a core. Typically the crates come phillips or torx, I laugh on what the person on the other ends is thinking. WTF is this, haha.
alfazer
Well-known member
I'm not sure they have them in USA, do they?
Even for us they mostly just used on wood screws in my experience.
giants
Banned
Well, I read about them in my basic automotive textbook last semester, LOL.
They sound like Europe's answer to the Japan's JIS screws, kinda like the European Union is Europe's answer to the USA, the Euro the US Dollar, etc.
They sound like Europe's answer to the Japan's JIS screws, kinda like the European Union is Europe's answer to the USA, the Euro the US Dollar, etc.
Not sure I've seen a pozi on a vehicle, but they are the most common wood screw in the UK, they self center like Philips, but don't cam out.
I guess not, but aren't Robertsons mostly used for wood screws? I've seen them for decking and fencing
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woody 73
Well-known member
n8n
Well-known member
They've been around for ages; 50's Studebaker door hinge screws for example. I'm sure there are others that are more common but that one sticks in my mind because I needed to buy a #3 Pozi bit just for that job. (door hinge screws on any older car tend to be a fight, hope the door opens wide enough to get a hand impact in there)
rlitman
Well-known member
In the US? Not really. I've NEVER seen a pozidriv screwdriver in a store here, and for that matter, never seen pozidriv bits sold singly either. The best you can do (aside from mail order) is buy a bit set which may include pozidriv. And even then you don't encounter pozidriv fasteners all that much.
At work, we have electrical equipment with ABB switchgear that's got pozi #2 terminals. At home, the only time I run to pozidriv is on Ikea furniture. But buying hardware with pozidriv in a store: that's as rare as hen's teeth here. It just doesn't exist.
Downwindtracker 2
Well-known member
No, we use Robertson for sheet metal screws and stove bolts as well. On machinery, allenheads get a lot of use. They come in flat head and buttonhead as well as the common cap screws.
The combination of Robertson screws and a 1/4 cordless impact driver is revolutionary. In my lifetime I've seen three great advances in power tools, the variable speed reversible drill motor, the orbiting cut jig saw, and the 1/4 cordless impact driver. I would rate the 1/4 impact driver second. I use mine 10x as often as all other cordless tools combined. I didn't realize how handicapped Americans were until I mentioned the 1/4" impact driver as the first cordless tool and everyone disagreed, and then I realized Americans don't have Robertson screws.
The combination of Robertson screws and a 1/4 cordless impact driver is revolutionary. In my lifetime I've seen three great advances in power tools, the variable speed reversible drill motor, the orbiting cut jig saw, and the 1/4 cordless impact driver. I would rate the 1/4 impact driver second. I use mine 10x as often as all other cordless tools combined. I didn't realize how handicapped Americans were until I mentioned the 1/4" impact driver as the first cordless tool and everyone disagreed, and then I realized Americans don't have Robertson screws.
n8n
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure when I bought a bucket o' deck screws for my last place from either HD or Lowe's they were Pozi, but they came with a driver bit in the bucket for obvious reasons which i thought was thoughtful of the mfgr.
metaleltr
Well-known member
Gm cars still use pozidrive. Most of the time people don’t notice and just assume it’s shotty Phillips.
Thanks guys, useful info. I'm surprised pozi didn't take off over there, in the UK probably 95% of wood screws are pozzi, with some Robertson and torx coming in. Drywall screws are Phillips so the bit cams out.
I totally agree about the 1/4" impact driver, by far my most used tool. I have said a few times I have no idea how anyone built houses before they were invented.
manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Many commercial electrical components are Pozi-drive. Most people don't recognize that fact - particularity the Klein fanboys....
Mikeske
Well-known member
I have seen and used the pozi-drive fasteners on GM vehicles when I had to repair them and the biggest annoyance is the fact that they installed them randomly. The same goes with the Robertson fasteners that a lot of the Canadian products have. As a mechanic I hate that stuff (insert swear word here) because of the cost that it makes for the mechanic and the now instead of two sets of screwdrivers now you have to buy four different sets. I mean you got a straight slot screws, a #1,#2,#3 Phillips head screws, Robertson and then the Ponzi-drive. I just wish that these folks would just go to one basic standard set it and the STOP SCREWING AROUND with a basic item like a fastener. Just don't get me going on computers and computer manufactures that must have some village nut case staying away at night dreaming up new fasteners so the folks that buy their products can't get it serviced if something goes wrong.
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Sorry to be a broken record on this subject but I think that Phillips was not designed to 'cam out.' At least this is the conclusion I have come to going from the patent and previous discussions here. According to the patent Phillips was designed to be an improvement over earlier slotted designs which would slip off fasteners during automated and machine driven assembly.
n8n
Well-known member
Hmm. ISTR that Siemens? breakers - ones that I used in my last house anyway - used Robertson screws. One of only two applications that I can recall seeing; the other being an old camper shell that my grandfather put on his '73 Chevy. It's long gone - my dad still has the truck but a few years ago he gave the shell away - and I don't remember the brand, if it was marked. It was not a typical fiberglass or aluminum topper, it was made of wood with an aluminum skin on the outside IIRC.
manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Professional Tool User
Well-known member
Whoever says torx is superior to robertson obviously hasn't broken any torx bits before. Torx screws are far more vulnerable to rust. You don't hear people complain about the drive ends on their ratchets breaking off anywhere near as often.
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ajchien
Well-known member
We have pozidriv in Ikea furniture.
Ikea has sold a lot of furniture in the US and I wonder how much of it was put together with a Phillips screwdriver rather than the correct Pozidriv. Probably almost all of it.
rlitman
Well-known member
I'm sure a lot. For years, I swore at their crappy phillips screws until it hit me like a ton of bricks.
Dagny
Well-known member
I prefer phillips over all others no wobble. If you ruin them it's because you have ***** arms and can't push on them.
MikeF2316
Well-known member
We designed a unit for our new TV using IKEA "modules". When I started I noticed my Phillps screwdrivers didn't fit the IKEA hardware very well. On our second trip after a slight redesign, I noticed an IKEA tool kit for $10 that I bought more as a joke than not. But I noticed the Pozidriv bit in the kit fit the hardware perfectly. My first Pozidriv screwdriver (bit)!
jvitez
Well-known member
Having recently installed around 500 ft of 2x4 strapping, I heartily concur.
I had a choice of GRK torx screws or 3" yellow construction screws with a #2 Robertson head which was less than half the cost. Picked the #2 Robertson, but the key I've found is to use an actual Robertson branded driver bit. They have a subtle curve to the sides that holds the bit in the screw head like a magnet. Regular big box store "square drive" bits can fit well to not very, but nothing like a true Robertson bit.
Lee Valley sells Robertson bits, great prices and selection.
https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/screwdrivers/bits/57951-robertson-drive-bits
Indexmill
Well-known member
I have to agree, I very rarely have any problem with Phillips screws. You must use a very good bit and pay attention. But, then they work fine.