Does this sub panel look right?

[Planenutz]

The detached garage is fed from a 50A breaker from the house panel. The incoming hots are the two heavier gauge wires, and the yellow jacketed is the other incoming. They wired a 50A welder outlet right off the incoming lugs (the smaller gauge wires gout out to the left). Is that kosher??
The bare aluminum wires are the other conductor going to the welder.

What do I need to do to make this right? Photos or links to photos to help me understand would be great

Thanks.

PS - I did not wire this. It was the previous owner or his son, both of whom run a contracting firm building high-end lake homes up here.

 

[jeepxj]

no it does not look right.

to fix you need to:
feed the welder from a breaker.
do double tapping all those grounds/N's.
you need to have a seperate ground vs N in a sub panel as well. this means pulling another wire to the sub building technically.
you need local ground rods as well on the sub building.

otherwise it looks great. did they chew the wires bare?

 

[AntonLargiader]

Any idea how long ago this was done?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The detached garage is fed from a 50A breaker from the house panel. The incoming hots are the two heavier gauge wires, and the yellow jacketed is the other incoming. They wired a 50A welder outlet right off the incoming lugs (the smaller gauge wires gout out to the left). Is that kosher??
The bare aluminum wires are the other conductor going to the welder.

What do I need to do to make this right? Photos or links to photos to help me understand would be great

Thanks.

PS - I did not wire this. It was the previous owner or his son, both of whom run a contracting firm building high-end lake homes up here.

Lots wrong here. smh

the welder circuit wires need to go to a breaker.

You will need to torque the feed lugs again.

How many breakers do you have there? If more than 6 handles then you will need a main breaker. It would have to be backfed since that panel is probably not convertible.

Neutral wire is wrong color.

Can't tell if you have a GEC wire that would go to grounding electrodes. Is there ground rods? If not you will need 2 ground rods.

How long ago was this hooked up? If after 2008 code cycle then the bonded neutral bus is incorrect. it will need either a new feeder or an additional wire for the ground as well as a ground bar. you would remove the bonding strip or screw for the neutral bar.

What kind of wire feeds this panel? jacketed/bundled wire or wire in conduit? What kind of conduit? If metal, then it most definitely needs a 4-wire feeder.

The double tapped wires on the neutral bar need to be fixed as well. Can only have 1 neutral per lug.

Most panels allow 2 grounds per lug...

no it does not look right.

to fix you need to:
feed the welder from a breaker.
do double tapping all those grounds/N's.
you need to have a separate ground vs N in a sub panel as well. this means pulling another wire to the sub building technically.
you need local ground rods as well on the sub building.

otherwise it looks great. did they chew the wires bare?

that actually depends on when this was installed. If before 2008 code cycle, then it is permissible to have a bonded neutral on a detached as long as there are no parallel metallic pathways.

 

[jeepxj]

that actually depends on when this was installed. If before 2008 code cycle, then it is permissible to have a bonded neutral on a detached as long as there are no parallel metallic pathways.

if he's updating doesn't he need to bring it up to current code? assuming it was going to be inspected lol.

 

[Planenutz]

no it does not look right.

to fix you need to:
feed the welder from a breaker.
do double tapping all those grounds/N's.
you need to have a seperate ground vs N in a sub panel as well. this means pulling another wire to the sub building technically.
you need local ground rods as well on the sub building.

otherwise it looks great. did they chew the wires bare?

Whats double tapping mean in this instance?
It's underground, not in a conduit, so have to dig a trench and bury a new cable?

House and original garage were built around 1996, a remodel was done in 2000.

 

[Planenutz]

Any idea how long ago this was done?

Either 1996 or 2000.

 

[Planenutz]

Lots wrong here. smh

the welder circuit wires need to go to a breaker.

You will need to torque the feed lugs again.

How many breakers do you have there? If more than 6 handles then you will need a main breaker. It would have to be backfed since that panel is probably not convertible. It's got 8 spaces and 7 are used due to the 20A 220 breaker in there. If I added a breaker for the 50A welder plug, then I would probably have to get a new panel. Along with burying new cable apparently.

Neutral wire is wrong color.

Can't tell if you have a GEC wire that would go to grounding electrodes. Is there ground rods? If not you will need 2 ground rods. 2 ground rods for the sub panel in the garage? GEC wire?

How long ago was this hooked up? If after 2008 code cycle then the bonded neutral bus is incorrect. it will need either a new feeder or an additional wire for the ground as well as a ground bar. you would remove the bonding strip or screw for the neutral bar.

What kind of wire feeds this panel? jacketed/bundled wire or wire in conduit? No conduit. Direct buried individual wires. What kind of conduit? If metal, then it most definitely needs a 4-wire feeder.

The double tapped wires on the neutral bar need to be fixed as well. Can only have 1 neutral per lug.

Most panels allow 2 grounds per lug...



that actually depends on when this was installed. If before 2008 code cycle, then it is permissible to have a bonded neutral on a detached as long as there are no parallel metallic pathways.

So at a minimum, new buried cable and new panel?

 

[Sokoloff]

Whats double tapping mean in this instance?
It's underground, not in a conduit, so have to dig a trench and bury a new cable?

House and original garage were built around 1996, a remodel was done in 2000.

If the yellow line and the bare aluminum stranded in the second photo are both from the feeder, then you have all the wires you need from the upstream panel and don’t need to run anything new even for current code. (Actually, I’m not sure that yellow is an acceptable color for neutral, but electrically it serves the purpose.)

 

[Planenutz]

If the yellow line and the bare aluminum stranded in the second photo are both from the feeder, then you have all the wires you need from the upstream panel and don’t need to run anything new even for current code. (Actually, I’m not sure that yellow is an acceptable color for neutral, but electrically it serves the purpose.)

No, the bare aluminum is going to the welder outlet. Only 2 black and the yellow coming from the house.

 

[Bert_]

It's got some issues but not a lost cause. If you can combine two of the 1 pole breakers you will have room for a 2 pole 50A. You will be at 6 throws but the panel will be full.

The yellow neutral is common with many brands of URD. Some manufacturers are still producing URD with the yellow neutral, others just use a yellow stripe. This is not a problem don't believe the people who tell you it is. Before anybody jumps of the URD most of the URD with the solid yellow neutral I have seen is triple rated. So it might be fine to bring into the structure.

The three wire feed is totally legal at the time it was installed.

You should have ground rods but that is easy to add.

The neutral and grounds is a minor issue and is also easy to correct.

 

[Planenutz]

It's got some issues but not a lost cause. If you can combine two of the 1 pole breakers you will have room for a 2 pole 50A. You will be at 6 throws but the panel will be full.

The yellow neutral is common with many brands of URD. Some manufacturers are still producing URD with the yellow neutral, others just use a yellow stripe. This is not a problem don't believe the people who tell you it is. Before anybody jumps of the URD most of the URD with the solid yellow neutral I have seen is triple rated. So it might be fine to bring into the structure.

The three wire feed is totally legal at the time it was installed.

You should have ground rods but that is easy to add.

The neutral and grounds is a minor issue and is also easy to correct.

Bert, so you're saying I can still use this panel and not trench in new power wire? Sweet!
How would I go about correcting the Neutral and Ground issues? I can drive in a ground rod in the spring... frost is already 6" deep here.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The 3-wire feeder is legal since it was done before 2008 IF you dont have any parallel metallic pathways.

As long as you dont change out the panel the feeder can remain.

You will need 2 ground rods.

Also the mess on the neutral bar needs to be fixed. Add a ground bar and move the grounds over to it

 

[Planenutz]

The 3-wire feeder is legal since it was done before 2008 IF you dont have any parallel metallic pathways. Parallel metallic pathways, meaning other circuits or metal conduit back to the main panel? There actually is another 110 circuit in the trench going from a switch in the house to a yard light on the outside of the garage.

As long as you dont change out the panel the feeder can remain.

You will need 2 ground rods. Where do I connect the 2 ground rods? One to the Ground bar and one to the Neutral bar?

Also the mess on the neutral bar needs to be fixed. Add a ground bar and move the grounds over to it

Thanks

 

[yeldogt]

The code changed ... previously a sub-panel was fed using three wires .. it was later changed where you needed 4 wires. The neutral and ground got separate feed wires in the new code.

Also -- years ago it was common for the sub-panel to have no main disconnect. They now required a main over 6 circuits.

Grounding requires two rods ... years ago one was enough. If the sub-panel is with-in the structure then it does not need another ground rod. Detached building does.

The modern code splits the neutral and ground ... it can all get a bit confusing when looking at older equipment.

They should have pulled out the welder with it's own breaker ...

 

[Norcal]

The code changed ... previously a sub-panel was fed using three wires .. it was later changed where you needed 4 wires. The neutral and ground got separate feed wires in the new code.

Also -- years ago it was common for the sub-panel to have no main disconnect. They now required a main over 6 circuits.

Grounding requires two rods ... years ago one was enough. If the sub-panel is with-in the structure then it does not need another ground rod. Detached building does.

The modern code splits the neutral and ground ... it can all get a bit confusing when looking at older equipment.

They should have pulled out the welder with it's own breaker ...

It used to be that a outbuilding could be served by a 3 wire feeder if certain conditions were met, it was never OK for a 3 wire subpanel.

 

[Sokoloff]

Grounding requires two rods ... years ago one was enough. If the sub-panel is with-in the structure then it does not need another ground rod.

I’m not in a position to look it up right now, but I believe that grounding does not require two rods IFF your one rod tests out to 25ohm or lower. Two rods gets around this requirement without even the need to test the impedance to ground, so two rods are most commonly specified and driven because it’s easier, perfectly certain, and cheaper, not because it’s a hard code requirement.

 

[alfredeneuman]

They now required a main over 6 circuits.

"Either 1996 or 2000."
The 6 subdivision rule was in the Code long before that

 

[Bretny]

Whats double tapping mean in this instance?
It's underground, not in a conduit, so have to dig a trench and bury a new cable?

House and original garage were built around 1996, a remodel was done in 2000.

Double tapping is two wires under one screw. A big no no.

 

[Bert_]

Double tapping is two wires under one screw. A big no no.

That's a pretty broad generalization. A lot of screws and lug are only rated for one wire, but there are plenty that are rated for two wires. They just need to be used within the rating.

 

[ard]

Where do I connect the 2 ground rods? One to the Ground bar and one to the Neutral bar?

Read up on ground rods... its a google search away.

One wire from ground bar to rod one, then on to rod 2. The use of 2 rods is to ensure good ground contact- so 2 of them daisy chained is fine