GFCI issue

[Bigbandguy]

This one has me tearing out what little hair I have left out. Short version. Older house, all baths are on ONE GFCI daisy chained from downstairs half bath to porch and two upstairs baths. I know they don't do it that way now but a rewire is not in the immediate picture.

The GFCI occasionally trips for no good reason that I can find, like in the middle of the night with nothing more than a night light plugged in. I plugged in a circuit tester after resetting and at the GFCI outlet itself I get hot and neutral reversed.

At the same time, downstream of this outlet (porch) the tester says "wired correctly" and it works, as do the bath outlets. When I reversed neutral and hot to correct what the tester said was wrong I get "Ground and hot reversed" and nothing works.

Tester is a Southwire 400205-A https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H4HWEP6/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[wyliesdiesels]

GFCIs do go bad occasionally. How old is the one you have currently? you could try replacing it

For the wiring issue, try pulling the GFCI out and look how its wired.

Also, some new GFCIs do not allow reverse wired 'line-in' terminals...

You could switch the downstream outlets to the line-side terminals on the bath GFCI and install GFCIs at each location so that you don't loose power to every outlet downstream.

 

[Bigbandguy]

Thanks, I should have mentioned that it is a new one. When we had extra outlets added to the porch back in the Summer (by a licenced electrician) he insisted on replacing the GFCI in the chain . It worked fine for a while and then this issue recently popped up.

I like your idea of wiring from the line side and adding new GFCI's to the downstream outlets, that will probably end the problem while keeping everything safe.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks, I should have mentioned that it is a new one. When we had extra outlets added to the porch back in the Summer (by a licenced electrician) he insisted on replacing the GFCI in the chain . It worked fine for a while and then this issue recently popped up.

I like your idea of wiring from the line side and adding new GFCI's to the downstream outlets, that will probably end the problem while keeping everything safe.

well i dont think it will end the problem of possible current leaking outside the circuit. It will just lessen the aggravation of loosing power to multiple outlets at the same time.

Since this is a new GFCI, you may have an issue with the wiring somewhere. I would open each j box and inspect for grounds touching neutrals.

 

[Jkcolo22]

The readings you are getting from your tester suggest you should look into this more... I agree with Wylie... inspect all connections downstream. You should also ensure that all connections into the GFCI are correct based on what the outlet says (not just your tester). Most GFCI outlets will still work if line and load are swapped, but they won’t protect, and could be the cause of the questionable outputs from your tester.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dave*99]

I encountered this same wiring situation and associated GFCI tripping. The GFCI was in the garage and the outdoor receptacle (daisy chained) on the porch was getting rain water in the box.

As mentioned before, inspect each receptacle.

 

[Bigbandguy]

OK thanks gents. That is why I consulted the experts. I think I will do both. e.g. put individual GFCI's at each location and check every J box for strays.

Wylie you are correct about reducing the aggravation. That is foremost in my priority since I get grief every time my wife's bathroom outlet cuts out.

 

[Terry D]

If that receptacle outside is getting wet for some reason, it will trip the GFCI protecting it. I cant tell you how many homes that I have been in like this, like already said, install a GFCI at each location.

 

[Bigbandguy]

Newer GFCIs will not work with the load and line swapped

The GFCI itself reads that way but when I swap the wires it fails (doesn't trip just doesn't do anything). With the GFCI reading "Hot and ground reversed" it works and trips at test. All downstream outlets read normal but it occasionally trips with no load.

I am buying more GFCI's tomorrow and will be looking at every downstream junction box.

I really appreciate the comments and advice. I will report what I find.

 

[mreisner]

I have seen gfci outlets bad right out of the box or failed in days. Not often, but happens more than you think it would.

 

[Terry D]

try this link

 

[Bigbandguy]

If that receptacle outside is getting wet for some reason, it will trip the GFCI protecting it. I cant tell you how many homes that I have been in like this, like already said, install a GFCI at each location.

Terry I just had the porch re-roofed and lined inside with tongue and groove spruce. Roof pitch is about 1/12 so they put a membrane on and then shingled on top to match the house. Not a drop of water anywhere that we have seen but will look for any signs when I check the J boxes. I would be surprised if moisture is the issue. More likely something loose somewhere.

 

[Terry D]

Terry I just had the porch re-roofed and lined inside with tongue and groove spruce. Roof pitch is about 1/12 so they put a membrane on and then shingled on top to match the house. Not a drop of water anywhere that we have seen but will look for any signs when I check the J boxes. I would be surprised if moisture is the issue. More likely something loose somewhere.

Yeah, always have to ask. I had a service call once, kind of the same thing. All these outlets where protected by a GFCI in a bathroom that was nuisance tripping. Come to find out, the outside outlet had a surge strip plugged into it on their covered screened in porch and it had a plant in a pot in front of it, when she watered it, sometimes it splashed on the strip causing the GFI to trip. Defiantly check all the connections, especially the neutrals. I cannot stand when people backstab the receptacles instead of going around the screw. If that's your case, defiantly check that. And if possible, as already mentioned, put a GFCI at each location. Best of luck with your problem

 

[Max]

Lots of good advice above. I assume that you are using one of those 3 light outlet testers? If so, those things are very simple, and if it shows that hot and neutral are reversed they almost certainly are. As noted earlier, you’re going to have to open up the GFCI box and confirm that it’s wired correctly. Once you replace the GFCI, I’d retest the outlet. If it’s still reversed, then I’d look to how the cable feeding in power is wired at the source.

Max

 

[alfredeneuman]

I assume that you are using one of those 3 light outlet testers? If so, those things are very simple, and if it shows that hot and neutral are reversed they almost certainly are.

The only way to tell for sure is with a meter, not a crappy 3 light tester.

 

[Bretny]

I have had a bad gfci right out of the box too.

 

[Max]

The only way to tell for sure is with a meter, not a crappy 3 light tester.

I completely agree that a meter is much better. For one thing, a cheap tester will not find a swapped ground/neutral. But it sounded like the OP only had a cheap tester, so that was what I was going with.

Max

PS. I’d have to look around a bit to be sure, but I’ve probably got 15-20 meters myself.

 

[Bigbandguy]

I completely agree that a meter is much better. For one thing, a cheap tester will not find a swapped ground/neutral. But it sounded like the OP only had a cheap tester, so that was what I was going with.

Max

PS. I’d have to look around a bit to be sure, but I’ve probably got 15-20 meters myself.

I do happen to have a meter and would like to know how I should use it to determine proper wiring. The neon tester is definitely a shortcut. I have a trusty old Simpson I can bring to the party.

 

[Max]

A meter lets you validate that the hot, neutral, and ground are hooked up correctly to the panel. To do these measurements, I am assuming that you are comfortable with working around 120V and know the proper safety procedures. If not, please don’t use a meter.

I assume that your Simpson is something like a 260? If so it will be fine as long as it has good probes that are rated for 250 VAC or better.

The incoming wires to your box should be white (neutral), black (could be red but likely black - both would be hot), and green or bare (ground). Some folks would do measurements hot, but I would turn off the breaker, connect up the meter probes, turn the breaker on to read the voltage, and then turn it off again to move the probes. Slower, but safer. YMMV.

If you’ve got a VOM like a 260 and not a DVM, remember that using the wrong scale will quite possibly destroy your meter. So make sure that you are on a voltage range greater than 120V full scale for the voltage measurements. If you measure 120V on the ohms scale you will wrap your meter’s pointer around the stop...

OK, voltage measurements:

Wht to black: ~120VAC
Wht to ground: ~ 0VAC (A couple of volts is likely OK)
Black to ground: ~120VAC

These measurements will show that the hot and neutral are not reversed in the panel or in a box that feeds the box under test. If these voltages are wrong than you need to look at upstream boxes to see where the issue is.

There is one more measurement that you can do with your meter. This one has to be with the breaker to the box OFF. Once the breaker is off, use your ohms scale to measure the resistance between neutral and ground. The resistance will be a function of the wire length. As an example, say you estimate 150’ of wire between your outlet and the panel. Also assume 14 AWG wire. 14 AWG is ~2.525 milli-ohms per foot. Also note that the ground wire is connected to neutral at the panel, so we have to deal with the length of both the neutral and ground wires. So 2 x 150 x (.002525) = ~.8 ohm. There will be wire joints in this path (wire nuts, panel screws, etc.) so figure that under a couple of ohms is good.

Max

PS. I almost forgot. If you’re using a DVM, you can get misleading measurements on the ground to neutral voltage check. This is due to the high meter impedance of a DVM vs. a VOM and stray capacitance in the wires. If you’re using a DVM and you see 60-70 VAC it’s likely the capacitance. The resistance check (power off!) will validate that neutral/ground are correct in this case.