Power to Cabin on Property

[wanderer]

About five years ago I build a new house on a 40 acre parcel in NE Kansas. The old farmhouse is still here, about 1000’ away from mine. It’s small, old WW2 military housing that was moved here in the 50’s. 24x36 so 840 square feet. It’s in rough condition so for the time being it’s just storage for me but the plan is to convert it into a fishing/hunting cabin and rent it out on Airbnb.

My irritation is about the electric utility. In the month of November I used 161KW and have a bill of $48. Lots of that was the minimum charge for the connection. As it just so happens I am getting ready to dig a trench to run power to the front of my property for a gate and some lights. Plan was to run 10/3 with 240v but the more I consider my actual needs at this little cabin it seems to make more and more sense to upgrade the wire size to 1/0 aluminum and attempt to get about 30 amps without too much voltage drop to that cabin - 5% is what I calculated. 30 amps is actually quite a bit with propane heat and LED lights we have now. In addition, it looks like there are now inverters that will let me run the house with an inverter and use this power feed to charge the batteries. Lastly, this would let me back up the other place with my generator if the power goes off.

I’ve got it figured with 1/0 aluminum at $2/ft, with the smaller gauge wire 1/3 the price. Seems like it would break even after about two years.

Is this a fools errand? I haven’t seen these inverters work in generator support mode but the setup looks ideal for my needs, since 30A is likely to work almost all the time. I don’t plan to put in the inverter unless I need to, but don’t want to spend the money and find out I’m not happy with it.

 

[dcg9381]

1000' for 30A. Plus trenching and conduit (if you use such). What do you figure your "all in" cost is?

What is it that you need to power in this cabin and how often? At 1000' away, depending on what you're doing, I might consider treating this like an "off grid" structure. 4 x 6V batteries, 400 watts of solar, moderate 120V inverter and a 100lb propane tank for hot water.... But again, depends on what you've got going on in there.
Could have a backup 2000 watt propane generator (or similar).

 

[wanderer]

Right now I’ve got nothing in there but I would like to have enough to power some lights and at most an air conditioner. Probably some type of mini split. Refrigerator, microwave, normal appliances also.

I was just going to rent a trencher from Home Depot. I was going to do this anyway to get power at the end of the driveway. The only difference is the heavier wire.

Solar panels and batteries are not inexpensive either and they require maintenance.

 

[frankush]

Look at it this way. A/C is running, fridge is running, a couple lights and the tv is on. Pretty normal situation. Hey, lets make some microwave popcorn. Main breaker trips and will continue to do so until you shed some of the load. Most renters don't want the hassle. If your looking to rent it out, spend the money for a "proper" or suitably sized service. 60 amp service, at the minimum, should avoid the main breaker tripping. I wouldn't put in less than a 100A. Do it once and forget about it. Renting it out will pay for it.

 

[nafterclifen]

I would outfit it (electrical, appliances, etc) as much as possible. You'll make the money back in renting.

frankush said it first. He has the right idea.

 

[Bretny]

It sounds like he's possibly using the front building as a rental not the one in the back that he's looking to power.

AC can be really expensive to run on solar. For the amount of times in a year you will need it could you just run it off a generator?

For a battery bank and solar don't mess with flooded or AGO battery. Get lithium, you have way more capacity in a smaller package.

 

[wanderer]

Look at it this way. A/C is running, fridge is running, a couple lights and the tv is on. Pretty normal situation. Hey, lets make some microwave popcorn. Main breaker trips and will continue to do so until you shed some of the load. Most renters don't want the hassle. If your looking to rent it out, spend the money for a "proper" or suitably sized service. 60 amp service, at the minimum, should avoid the main breaker tripping. I wouldn't put in less than a 100A. Do it once and forget about it. Renting it out will pay for it.

The thing is that I’ve backed up my house with a 25 amp generator (6kw). I can do all that and then some without difficulty. I’ll have about 7000 watts available. 2 ton mini split is like 2400 watts. Washing machine maybe 600. Microwave 900. TV is 50. Every single light in the place at the same time another 500?

Again, right now it’s nothing. I’m using it for storage and I’ve had the power off all summer because I didn’t want to pay for it. Just keeping the pipes from freezing now.

 

[wanderer]

It sounds like he's possibly using the front building as a rental not the one in the back that he's looking to power.

Sorry if i wasn’t clear. This cabin is the front building. Right next to the road (quiet) and a big pond. My house is being this about 1000’ away and I already have power at my house. I don’t want to rent this to a person who will live there, but keep it as a rustic cabin for a little bit of income and to have a place for people to stay. Maybe somebody from the city who wants to some stay for the weekend and go fishing in my stocked pond. It also lets me find a way for other people to pay for me to clean up that part of the property and stock the pond.

 

[frankush]

Maybe I misunderstood the original post. Do you currently have 2 service drops from the local utility? One at the house you live in and one at the cabin? If you already have a separate drop at the cabin, there is no way I would spend the money on a new feeder from the house. Your backup generator needs fuel and requires maintenance. They also don't last forever. Any supply charge your paying the utility for a separate service drop should be less than maintenance and fuel costs over an extended period of time. I think you're smart to rent it out and maybe earn a few bucks in the process, but don't let that $25 a month supply charge get under your skin. Even if you just ran a larger feeder from the newer house, 1000' is a long ways away and you have to maintain it.

 

[yatg]

Clean it up, start renting it cheap "as is" for now establishing that its a rental.
Then improvements, like electrical, can be depreciated.
Check with your accountant.

 

[wanderer]

Clean it up, start renting it cheap "as is" for now establishing that its a rental.
Then improvements, like electrical, can be depreciated.
Check with your accountant.

Long story. It’s been a rental, rented cheap. Everything is already being depreciated. As a rental it’s been in active for a year. I don’t want to live next to a cheap tenant. I really don’t want to have a rental here at the property. I just don’t like mixing business with pleasure that way.

Yes, it already has 200 amp service to the house. House needs rewired though.

 

[theoldwizard1]

My voltage drop calculator says 2 AWG will have a 6% drop at 30A and 1000'. Not good but probably acceptable (most mini-splits, which is likely you biggest load, will run on 208VAC). 1000' of 2-2-4-6 MHF will cost about $1100, plus shipping.

 

[dcg9381]

Solar panels and batteries are not inexpensive either and they require maintenance.

Sounds like it's full time residential (rental) and agree with you that solar isn't a good option.

30A of 240V, that's about double the power of most mid-sized RVs. You'll need to pay attention to which side of the circuit you're on, but I don't see why you can't run a refrigerator, a reasonably sized ductless system, and some lights. But I think you may be pushing more than that as a rental.

You may run into some trouble if you try to power up the microwave, AC, and dishwasher (on heat cycle) all at the same time... Someone throws in a simple space heater and you'll be over. I assume hot water is propane? 1/5 mile walk to flip the breaker..

I'd want to see 50A @ 240V, personally...

 

[Bretny]

I own a 800sqft rental next door. You do not want them on your meter. Get them there own service and own bill. Keep as much electric as you can. No propane or heating oil to keep track of or fill up between tenants. Overall I have had very good luck with tenants. The one that stayed the shortest time still lives there, 3yrs last month. Keep things simple and easy to fix. A mini split will get you no more monthly income than a through the wall AC.

 

[RegeSullivan]

Did I misread the OP? He is not renting to a tenant but a short term (weekend or weekly vacationer/camper). 30 amp 240 should be plenty even with a small A/C unit. If there is a dishwasher get it out of there.

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[andys]

I'm in the camp of doing it once and covering all possible needs. If you decide to expand the cabin or change the usage you may wish you had more service available. The cost of doing "extra" today is far less than doing it all over again down the road.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

This is a prime candidate for a pair of 480x240/120v transformer backfed at the house with 240v.

10KVA will give you about 40a

Then you can run way smaller wire and conduit.

 

[wanderer]

Did I misread the OP? He is not renting to a tenant but a short term (weekend or weekly vacationer/camper). 30 amp 240 should be plenty even with a small A/C unit. If there is a dishwasher get it out of there.

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You are correct. Short term rental only.

I had it rented long-term and really didn’t like the experience so close to my house. Small house so the rent is cheap so the tenant doesn’t take care of the property…. Then I have to deal with all that while I’m at home enjoying my own time.

That means I’m paying expenses. I haven’t even started remodeling it though. It might be two years before I do anything with it. That’s $720 right there. I had the utilities shut off all summer because I didn’t want to pay them.

As a rental having shared expenses actually benefits me. Common maintenance expenses between the two properties become deductible like the road and other improvements. Also I can split the utilities like Internet, water, and power.


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[BillK]

If I read the original post correctly the "cabin" already has its own meter and feed. The op just doesn't like the $48 monthly bill for very little use.

Personally I would leave it the way it is and pay the $48 bucks a month. That way it is still completely separate when you rent it. You need to talk to your CPA about the best way to "split" the costs. I would bet it would be very beneficial to keep it on its own meter.

 

[Bretny]

If it's an option to rent it nothing included do that. Having everything included and you get the wrong tenant in there your screwed.

You should read up on state rental laws and how to pick the correct tenants. Most bad tenants start bad from day one. If there messing the place up and your not doing anything about it your just as much to blame.

 

[ard]

This is a prime candidate for a pair of 480x240/120v transformer backfed at the house with 240v.

10KVA will give you about 40a

Then you can run way smaller wire and conduit.

I was thinking the same thing. What are the costs for a transformer?

 

[turbodave]

Is the cabin a candidate for solar or wind power?

If so maybe leave it connected on it's own meter and hook in an alternate power source using the grid as backup. That way when there are months with little to no usage you will offset the bill with power you provide to the utiilty, maybe even get a check instead of having to pay. I know the up front costs are high, and on paper it's probably not the most logical plan, but down the road it might be nice to have a smaller or no bill and it might also increase the appeal to some of the short term renters.

 

[wanderer]

Is the cabin a candidate for solar or wind power?

If so maybe leave it connected on it's own meter and hook in an alternate power source using the grid as backup. That way when there are months with little to no usage you will offset the bill with power you provide to the utiilty, maybe even get a check instead of having to pay. I know the up front costs are high, and on paper it's probably not the most logical plan, but down the road it might be nice to have a smaller or no bill and it might also increase the appeal to some of the short term renters.

Not really. It’s in a very shady area. What makes more sense is putting a solar system on the roof of my barn at my house when I build it. Location is much better.

 

[pentavolvo]

I think you will be fine with what you have planned. At work we run #2 copper ridiculous lengths and out some decent loads on it with no issues.

 

[dcg9381]

I was thinking the same thing. What are the costs for a transformer?

Depends on PoC. Here, with "new service" they give you something like $1500 credit toward the costs of service - including transformer, wire, etc. OP needs to ask his PoC.

 

[dcg9381]

Is the cabin a candidate for solar or wind power?

FYI - Wind power is "wild AC" meaning the frequency varies. To use it, you have to put that power in batteries or us a grid tie inverter directly. I got licensed to install at least one wind product and decided that I wouldn't do it. It's mechanical, it's going to require maintenance, and places where it make sense to use are a lot harder to find than solar.


Both wind and solar in an "off grid" case require substantial battery banks to do what the OP wants to do.

A "small-ish" say - 3000 watt solar system could be used "grid tie" with his 30A service. It'd essentially supplement the main feed by 13A or so when the sun is out... Course, won't help if it's shaded... Or if he can't put the array on the ground away from the trees, but tied to cabin service.

 

[ard]

Depends on PoC. Here, with "new service" they give you something like $1500 credit toward the costs of service - including transformer, wire, etc. OP needs to ask his PoC.

No!

Not a poco transformer....this would be a small 'owner installed' transformer.

 

[PugetDude]

Take in laundry before you take in tenants. The pain far exceeds the gain, IMO.

 

[dcg9381]

No!

Not a poco transformer....this would be a small 'owner installed' transformer.

Ahh.. Never seen that...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I was thinking the same thing. What are the costs for a transformer?

depends on the KVA and condition

Depends on PoCo. Here, with "new service" they give you something like $1500 credit toward the costs of service - including transformer, wire, etc. OP needs to ask his PoC.

Ahh.. Never seen that...

yeah not a PoCo transformer.

This would be a load side transformer and its done all the time.

Most malls are 480v fed to meter stacks, service entrance ran to individual store suites and then a 480x208Y/120 transformer is placed in the customer suite. This is done because the distance from the electric room and the tenant suite is a great distance.

 

[jeepxj]

i'd put in 240-480 transformers at both ends to reduce line loss. doable.

good video on a guy who had 1100 foot run to supply a house:

 

[ard]

I was plinking around and looks like a 480/240 transformer, NEW, will run $500-600. Like this:

https://store.maddoxtransformer.com...1-phase-240x480-120-240?variant=1479100334089

I bet you can pick them up used for FAR less.

So $400 for two? max of $1000. (I was pricing 10kVa units, which is 40Ams at 240V...if all you need is 30, then maybe a 7.5kva works?)


OP- if you run 1000 ft at 480volts, you only need #4 Aluminum to run 15 amps. (2.86% voltage drop)

Consider the savings: #4 vs 1/0. At $1 a foot wire saving you have paid for the two new transformers, give or take

#3 AL will give you 19 amps, or 38Amps at the cabin. Basically 40A service

Food for thought.....

 

[jeepxj]

about half of new cost on ebay for 15kva's

 

[TheEquineFencer]

LOL, you guys are thinking like guys...Now imagine a WOMAN rents the place. You forgot the 1500w-2000 blow dryer and related items that come with them.

If the OP is concerned about the bill for it separate from his, bite the bullet, put a 400A service drop outside the cabin, pull 200A to the cabin, then run the second 200A to his house, one bill, no problems and it only hurts one time.

 

[jeepxj]

LOL, you guys are thinking like guys...Now imagine a WOMAN rents the place. You forgot the 1500w-2000 blow dryer and related items that come with them.

If the OP is concerned about the bill for it separate from his, bite the bullet, put a 400A service drop outside the cabin, pull 200A to the cabin, then run the second 200A to his house, one bill, no problems and it only hurts one time.

there is nothing to say he can't put a meter on that feed to the rental place and privately bill for it. just follow the local laws regarding it.

 

[exranger06]

there is nothing to say he can't put a meter on that feed to the rental place and privately bill for it. just follow the local laws regarding it.

I've never heard of an Air BnB place charging customers for actual electricity used. Have you ever seen an itemized charge for the actual electricity used when you stayed at a hotel or a bed and breakfast?

A lot of you guys keep missing the part where he said he wanted to rent it as an Air BnB place (in other words, people staying there for one weekend or a couple of days), NOT as a long-term rental with people living there for months at a time.

 

[wanderer]

I've never heard of an Air BnB place charging customers for actual electricity used. Have you ever seen an itemized charge for the actual electricity used when you stayed at a hotel or a bed and breakfast?



A lot of you guys keep missing the part where he said he wanted to rent it as an Air BnB place (in other words, people staying there for one weekend or a couple of days), NOT as a long-term rental with people living there for months at a time.

This is correct. I appreciate all the advice but I’m already a landlord renting about a dozen properties. I am not interested in having a long-term tenant in this house, did it for almost a decade and I’m tired of it. It makes more sense to focus on short term rentals at this house for a variety of reasons.

It’s just a long-term goal though. My guess is it sits vacant as storage for another year and then a year or two after that for me to do the remodeling. It’s paid for and I’m not in a big hurry here. I guess that’s what’s making me think about this the most. It’s hard to pay to keep the power on when there’s no income coming in and not much on the horizon either.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Sounds like a lot of unnecessary expense and effort. The cabin already has power. I'd leave it as is and spend the time/money renovating it for your part time rental plan.

 

[jeepxj]

I've never heard of an Air BnB place charging customers for actual electricity used. Have you ever seen an itemized charge for the actual electricity used when you stayed at a hotel or a bed and breakfast?

A lot of you guys keep missing the part where he said he wanted to rent it as an Air BnB place (in other words, people staying there for one weekend or a couple of days), NOT as a long-term rental with people living there for months at a time.

oh my bad. missed that part somehow. yea i'd put in some 10kva transformers to pick up the transmission to 480v. 40a should be plenty for a little cabin.

 

[wanderer]

oh my bad. missed that part somehow. yea i'd put in some 10kva transformers to pick up the transmission to 480v. 40a should be plenty for a little cabin.

Any idea what the power consumption for the transformer would be?


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