When I built my barn, I originally ordered a 12x10 ideal "clopay" door, 2 inch thick, r16.7 etc etc. I decided I wanted a 12x12 instead and figured I could just order 1 more panel, extend the track and wind the springs a little tighter. Well I've now found out that I was far off on that assumption. I did find a local garage door company that got in contact with clopay for me to find out what springs I did need for the 12x12. The company let me bring my track and springs meant for a 12x10 and exchange them for the track and springs I now needed. Anyways I got the door all up, and the directions said to wind the springs 12.3 turns,once I got to 10 turns the door started to lift itself. So I backed the spring off to 8.25 turns and that was just enough that it wouldn't lift up by itself,but now once I lift the door over 6 foot it's out of spring and becomes very heavy. The horizontal track is mounted perfect and the door is not binding in it. The red spring is on the left and black is on right,and I wound them both upwards. The only thing I can figure is I have to heavy of springs and need springs that will allow me to turn them 12 turns without the door lifting. I got back in contact with the garage door company that sold me the springs and Im not having much luck, there basically claiming install error. I also installed a 10x10 high lift door and it's working flawlessly. The spring dimensions for the 12x12 are 1 - 2" ID 262 WIRE 50" LONG AND 1 - 2" ID 250 WIRE 45" Long. Basically I'm trying to figure out what springs I actually need to make this sucker right so I can move onto the next project. Sorry for the long read
Calling all garage door "EXPERTS" only
- Thread starter Earp69
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HotrodHR
Well-known member
Suggest you review the information found at DDM Garage Doors' website:
https://diygaragedoor.com/diy-instructions/
I've installed a high lift kit on my shop door and I've replaced several tension springs over the years. Each time I reviewed the procedures on DDM's website to make sure I calculated everything correctly.
You said Clopay sent you the right springs based on the door size. They may have sent you the wrong size, you may have installed them on the wrong sides, and/or you may need different sized cable drums.
BTW, did you weigh the door? Follow the DDM procedures and provide the with you door's info (weight, measurements, etc.) and order the parts from them. Prices are reasonable and they ship it to your home. No running around looking for parts...
https://diygaragedoor.com/diy-instructions/
I've installed a high lift kit on my shop door and I've replaced several tension springs over the years. Each time I reviewed the procedures on DDM's website to make sure I calculated everything correctly.
You said Clopay sent you the right springs based on the door size. They may have sent you the wrong size, you may have installed them on the wrong sides, and/or you may need different sized cable drums.
BTW, did you weigh the door? Follow the DDM procedures and provide the with you door's info (weight, measurements, etc.) and order the parts from them. Prices are reasonable and they ship it to your home. No running around looking for parts...
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Jlbc212
Well-known member
First of all the door should always be locked down when winding the springs. After the springs are wound and before unlocking the door I always place a locking pair of vise grips in the track just below one of the hinge rollers so that the door can only travel up about two feet. After unlocking the door and letting it rise two feet I then place another pair of vise grips in the track to allow the door to travel no more than an additional two feet. This will give you a feel as to whether or not the spring tension is just about right. The door shouldn't jump up or feel heavy.
For a door with horizontal track (no high lift) a general rule of thumb to estimate number of spring turns is to measure the diameter of the cable spool, and multiply that diameter by three (the circumference of a circle is 3.1416 times the diameter). That figure is the amount of cable the springs will lift on each full turn of the springs or simply how far the door will travel upward in inches with each full revolution of the shaft to which the springs and cable spools are attached. Divide the height of the door in inches by the number of inches the door travels upward with each turn of the springs. Add to that number approx. one or two more turn on each spring. That additional turning should provide just enough spring tension to keep the door up when it is fully opened. If this doesn't work, you probably have the incorrect springs for the door.
For a door with horizontal track (no high lift) a general rule of thumb to estimate number of spring turns is to measure the diameter of the cable spool, and multiply that diameter by three (the circumference of a circle is 3.1416 times the diameter). That figure is the amount of cable the springs will lift on each full turn of the springs or simply how far the door will travel upward in inches with each full revolution of the shaft to which the springs and cable spools are attached. Divide the height of the door in inches by the number of inches the door travels upward with each turn of the springs. Add to that number approx. one or two more turn on each spring. That additional turning should provide just enough spring tension to keep the door up when it is fully opened. If this doesn't work, you probably have the incorrect springs for the door.
So your saying once the springs are wound, I unlock the door and it should raise 2 foot by itself?
I'm pretty positive my door weighs more than my scale allows for. Otherwise weighing it would be my next move
jstroede
Well-known member
Where did you get the spring dimensions? Did you verify those dimensions on the springs themselves? Sounds like the wire size is off to me. Is this a standard lift application? You should have a 400-12 cable drum with that. 12.3 turns is correct for that application. This sounds like wrong wire size. I don't have an weights for that door , but those springs would be for about a 340 lb door.
John
John
Thanks for the reply John. The spring dimensions came from the local garage door company.he said he emailed clopay my exact door model/size and then asked what springs I needed,which is what he gave me.I did verify the diameter of the wire, which is correct. I did not verify the length of the springs though.the Drums are D400-144. And yes it is a standard lift. I sent the local garage door company the garage door specs off the sticker that was on the side of the door, so I'm assuming there was a miscommunication somewhere between the garage door company and clopay. Either way I'm positive I have the wrong springs and come Monday morning in going to have to rock some boats I suppose.
jstroede
Well-known member
count 20 coils on each of the springs and tell me what that measurement is. That will tell you the wire size.
Can you post those specs?
Mistakes happen...
John
Can you post those specs?
Mistakes happen...
John
Jlbc212
Well-known member
A properly balanced door will be easy to lift and should stay in whatever position you place it.
well its not easy to lift, and the door wont stay in any position i put it. currently its at 8.5 turns,but if i turn it any tighter it wont sit on the floor.
Hot Rod Grampa
Well-known member
Engineers at the factories have been known to make mistakes, and are reluctant to admit to them. Years ago new commercial 18 x 14 done by the book(this is how I made a living!) at a large lumber yard. I finished winding the springs and the door felt very light, before I took the 2 pair of vicegrips off. The door wanted to launch. Checked everything we did, counted turns, verified springs were correct for that door(as we were doing several there) and yes springs were wrong for the door. As a temporary stop gap, I wound one spring to full listed turns, but only a few on the second spring. Called distributor, they called factory, engineer called me and stated he doesn't make mistakes. Pissed me off. I started hanging buckets of joint compound on the door and kept winding the second spring up to full turns. Took a picture of the door with 8 joint compound buckets hanging on it and sent it to the distributor. I had new springs the next day, along with an apology. **** happens.
One spring has to be at full count to keep tension on the cables.
One spring has to be at full count to keep tension on the cables.
I 100% understand **** happens. I would be delighted if I could get the company to say hey i think we got you the wrong springs,sorry about the mistake. But i cant seem to get them to look past there ego. Sometimes a visit in person seems to motivate people a little more, I guess thats my next step
383
Well-known member
My guess would be that they gave you the wrong springs. Clopay makes a good product, but it seems like they make more mistakes than a few years ago.
jstroede
Well-known member
What is the model number of the door? Any struts on the door? Can you weigh one section? Standard lift usually isn't that hard to figure out.
John
John
sorry for long wait guys been a rough few days at work. the only way i could weigh just one panel is to disassemble one section. no struts on the door. here is the link to the door,and also a picture of the end cap.
https://www.menards.com/main/doors-.../12x12whiteinsribbedc7x17/p-1444433861633.htm
https://www.menards.com/main/doors-.../12x12whiteinsribbedc7x17/p-1444433861633.htm
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Jlbc212
Well-known member
There is a way to calculate the weight of the door with a normal scale by weighing the lower half the door. I hesitate to describe here how to do it, but you can PM me and I will try my best to walk you through it. However, the door company where you bought the door should understand your issue and be more cooperative. As a garage door mechanic for many years (many, many years ago) I can assure you receiving the incorrect springs was fairly common at least back then.
Hey man I'm all ears and appreciate any input at this point. One panel does have two windows, not sure how much that effects things
Jlbc212
Well-known member
I suppose the easiest way would be to remove the top section of the door, weigh just that section and multiply that weight by the number of sections. My guess is the section with glass would be close enough in weight to a no-glass section. But after doing this if you still want to be more accurate you can split the door in two. I'm assuming the 12 foot high door has six sections and the glass section is at or below the 3rd section.
You would need at a minimum several pairs of vice grip locking pliers, a low profile jack, a bathroom scale and the torsion spring winding bars. You will have to lift the door only high enough to get the floor jack underneath plus two inches. The scale will probably need to sit on some level blocking to bring the top height of the scale just slightly above the height of the floor jack in its lowest position. Lock the door in that position by placing a pair of vice grips in each vertical track under rollers between the fourth and fifth section. With the door locked at the prescribed height, you should be able to place a torsion bar in the spring winding cone and to loosen the set screws. Allowing the spring to slightly unwind, the winding bar should come to rest on the top section. Do this for both springs. You may also want to place a vice grip on the spring shaft to help keep the cables on the winding drums, but the cables will need enough slack so that the bottom three sections can be lowered down onto the scale. Place the floor jack under the door near the center allowing space for the scale to be in the exact center. Jack up the jack just enough to touch the bottom of the door. Place another pair of vice grips in the track just above the top of the hinge that connects the 3rd and 4th sections. This is to prevent the 4th section from kicking in. Now undo the top of the hinges between the 3rd and 4th sections. You may have to prod them from the door section with a pry-bar. Using the jack lower the bottom three sections of the door down onto the scale. You now know the weight of the bottom three sections and will be able to calculate the weight of the entire door. After calculating the weight reverse the steps outlined above.
Katodog
Well-known member
I live near DDM, have bought and installed springs from them probably ten times or more, for my home and for the warehouse I used to work at. Contact them, give them your door info and they should be able to give you the right springs. They haven't failed me yet, even when door info was hard to find they always nailed exactly what springs I needed.
ard
Well-known member
You can use a board to create a 'divide by' scale....
Take a 10 ft board, put a block under one end, scale at the other end. Position all this so the door lands on the board 2 feet (exactly) from the block end.
The number on the scale will be 2/10 of the true weight. (Or multiply the reading by 10/2..or 5x)
(Replace 'board' with 'square metal tubing' if it is over 1000lbs...)
You can adjust the lengths as required..
Hot Rod Grampa
Well-known member
Agree with above. We used a 50% system, where the 2x was 2' long. One end sat on a block of wood the same height as the scale. The other end sat on the scale. Mark the center of the board, put the center of the door on that mark, take tension off the cables with winding bars being careful not to make them too loose and read the scale. Door weight should be twice what scale shows.
OK guys finally figured it out. So the garage door company only carries 2" springs, and the specs from clopay were for 2 and 7/8 inch springs. So they have a equation to convert what springs they need for 2 inch springs. Well he did the conversion but still cut the 2" springs to the length that the 2 and 7/8 inch springs called for. I got the new springs up there and wound and the door works perfect. Thanks for all your guys help I appreciate it, hopefully my spring winding days are done for awhile!
ard
Well-known member
So the new 2" springs are much longer?
YukonXL04
Well-known member
Wow! What a hassle! I'm glad you got it figured out.
It seems when companies sell you just the parts, but not the installation labor, they don't want to help you figure out a problem they caused. I have had that problem with Overhead Door Co. Several times.
Yeah, quite the cluster. Just glad I got it all good now. Thanks for all your guys help