So what options do I really have? multiple service question

[BLUE72CAMARO]

Well I guess I should start with just a touch of history on my place. House was built in the late 70's as was my front pole barn. Years exactly I dont know but I think they were around the same time frame. The back pole barn was built and is connected to the front via a walkway in the early 2000's. The house has a 200 amp service and the front shed has a seperate meter and 200 amp service as well. Has been this way since I bought the place in 2011 and by the age of panels and telephone poles in the yard I suspect it was that way since the both house and front shed were new.

So apparently at some point Illinois power was bought out by Ameren. This happened before I purchased in 2011 as well. Since I have owned the place I have always been billed residential rates on both meters. A couple weeks ago I received a letter from Ameren stating that the service from my shed no longer meets the criteria for residential rates and will now be billed at non-residential rates. So I called to see what this truly means and it seems that it boils down to they are going to hit me for an extra $20 a month on the meter on the sheds for the minimum now.

So my options as I see them now are:
1) Just eat the extra charge every month a go along my way ******* and moaning every time the bill comes.
2) Redo the meter on my house so I can pull power from the house panel out to the existing panel in the front shed. This is where I am way out of my league as to what kind of cost am I truly looking at to do so.

So here is a quick sat image of my layout showing where the meters are and yes to take the path shown I would be busting out a sidwalk but I plan on taking it out this spring anyways to solve a drainage issue.



So I know the first question will be do I need a 200 amp service to my shop/sheds and my answer is I am not sure but most likely I think everyone will tell me to keep it with the tools I have.

So heres the big power users in my shop/sheds
bridgeport vertical mill
14x40 lathe
10hp rotary converter for 3 phase to power the above
welders - smaller mig and stig/tig setup
kalamazoo horizontal bandsaw that I am restoring
50 gallon air compressor
car lift
small plasma cutter


So you guys that deal with these type things on a daily basis what are your thoughts?

 

[Sevenhills1952]

To me $20/month doesn't seem that bad, if everything is working ok. Just for fun I might call Ameren and speak to someone in authority (supervisor) since it's residential maybe it could be grandfathered in, it's not new service.

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[ard]

stating that the service from my shed no longer meets the criteria for residential rates and will now be billed at non-residential rates.

I’d find out what that criteria are...and see if I could make it meet that criteria.

Is it living space? Bedroom? Heated space? Etc....

Also, be careful with calling them. They aren’t on your side. In many states the rules that a POCO must follow are on file with the state PUC (public utility commission). Your PUC may have rules in place to protect you against stuff like this.

 

[justsam]

I would tend to agree with the notion of let it be. I suspect if you got a bid for the job to do otherwise it would confirm staying the course however without looking at it in detail is hard to know. Once you know the cost of making a change you can determine the value to you. Clearly how long you intend to stay in the location comes into play.

Regarding the need for 200 Amps, it really depends on concurrent load. You have some heavy consumers listed, but how many will be operating at the same time. Of course the compressor may kick on when any of the others are in use so you must consider that. What is in the future, Plasma Cutter, EV Charger, Heating, etc? Certainly the existing 200 Amp is there and in place, so may all be sunk costs at this point.

AS others stated, it may make sense to call the utility, and speak to a real decision maker. You did not change, they did. You should be grandfathered.

 

[BLUE72CAMARO]

To me $20/month doesn't seem that bad, if everything is working ok. Just for fun I might call Ameren and speak to someone in authority (supervisor) since it's residential maybe it could be grandfathered in, it's not new service.

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Yeah I am guessing that by the gal I talked to immediate change in tone when I explained why I was calling that I am not the only one that has called asking why and complaining. She immediately changed from a perky voice to a oh god this guy is going to be chew me a new *** tone when she started to explain.

 

[BLUE72CAMARO]

I’d find out what that criteria are...and see if I could make it meet that criteria.

Is it living space? Bedroom? Heated space? Etc....

Also, be careful with calling them. They aren’t on your side. In many states the rules that a POCO must follow are on file with the state PUC (public utility commission). Your PUC may have rules in place to protect you against stuff like this.

Living space and restroom seems to be the term that kept coming up. My buildings have nothing in them that is close to a living space nor am I really interested in spending thousands and loosing space to put up a room inside the buildings plus mess with getting plumbing out there. Now could I throw a bed in the middle of my shop and get by sleeping in there. Absolutely! LOL

 

[BLUE72CAMARO]

I would tend to agree with the notion of let it be. I suspect if you got a bid for the job to do otherwise it would confirm staying the course however without looking at it in detail is hard to know. Once you know the cost of making a change you can determine the value to you. Clearly how long you intend to stay in the location comes into play.

Regarding the need for 200 Amps, it really depends on concurrent load. You have some heavy consumers listed, but how many will be operating at the same time. Of course the compressor may kick on when any of the others are in use so you must consider that. What is in the future, Plasma Cutter, EV Charger, Heating, etc? Certainly the existing 200 Amp is there and in place, so may all be sunk costs at this point.

AS others stated, it may make sense to call the utility, and speak to a real decision maker. You did not change, they did. You should be grandfathered.

Yeah I here you and that is the hard part to answer. Obviously when its just me in the shop I can only run a few of those loads at once but it is not uncommon for someone to be using my lift to service their vehicle while I am working on another project and I also a couple machinist buddies that could be running a machine why I weld something or vise versa from time to time. I would rather not have to think about what I am using and when unless I absolutely have to downsize.

I may call back and see if I cant run this up the tree a little higher at Ameren as well. It just doesnt sit well with me that they are going to change how I am billed after supplying my service for 9 years.

 

[mike93lx]

You would be looking at thousands to have an electrician tie everything into a single service, easily.
Is it worth messing with what works and spend that to cut $240/year out? That is a pretty crappy ROI by any measure.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Combining service will save you more than $20/month, right? I'm assuming the $20 is an increase over an existing base monthly rate. What would be the total savings if you do away with the second service? And is the commercial electricity billed at a higher rate per kW? How much power does your house actually need?

 

[BLUE72CAMARO]

Combining service will save you more than $20/month, right? I'm assuming the $20 is an increase over an existing base monthly rate. What would be the total savings if you do away with the second service? And is the commercial electricity billed at a higher rate per kW? How much power does your house actually need?

You are correct I believe the base fee for residential is $15 minimum and commercial is $35. So yes the savings could be more per month, until I receive the first bill via the new method I really dont know but I suspect you are right that I will be billed at a higher rate on this meter as well.

On the house, it could definitely get by with less than 200 amps. Small 1300 sq. ft ranch with LP for furnace but has electric water heater, stove, oven, and dryer but has a 200 amp panel installed...

 

[BLUE72CAMARO]

You would be looking at thousands to have an electrician tie everything into a single service, easily.
Is it worth messing with what works and spend that to cut $240/year out? That is a pretty crappy ROI by any measure.

I would agree but I have a recently retired electrician friend that ran his own business for decades that could help me out. Basically read I do all the dumb work i.e. trenching, burying conduit, pulling wire then he would do the actual connections and panel/meter work. But he is one of these guys if I ask him about I better be ready to do it as he will hound me every day about when we are doing and what I need. So if it is not remotely reasonable in materials cost alone I dont even want to bring it up to him.

 

[AntonLargiader]

To investigate combining service you need to know if you can fit all of your demand into 200A (probably can unless you’re doing laundry and showering while running the mill and everything else) and you need to know if your existing equipment can support splitting the power up. Separate meter going to a disconnect, or a main breaker panel, can the panel take a 100A breaker, etc. take some pics including the labels in your existing home panel.

 

[dcg9381]

You have some pretty hungry tools. The normal rule of thumb around here is 100A is more than enough for a one-man shop. Clamp an amp meter on that feed and spin up a few tools - should answer your question.

For $20 a month, even DIY, you're talking 5-10 year payback to set this up for 100A off the house. I'm with the others - leave it.

Or take a few photos of our shops with bedrooms and tell them that it's residential. If it needs a bath and you're on septic, just a few more photos...

 

[ard]

Living space and restroom seems to be the term that kept coming up. My buildings have nothing in them that is close to a living space nor am I really interested in spending thousands and loosing space to put up a room inside the buildings plus mess with getting plumbing out there. Now could I throw a bed in the middle of my shop and get by sleeping in there. Absolutely! LOL

lol

It may not be 'thousands'...may not be plumbing. Prolly cheaper than the electrical work -

Heck, Id have told her 'yeah, there is living space in there' and let them prove otherwise. Or did you already confirm it is unimproved shop space?

But sounds like you know what you want to do

 

[DC73]

How is the power being fed to each meter currently? Is there a common point somewhere between the two services that would lend itself to being the new metering point? You're not limited to having a meter at either of the two current locations. You could have a new meter somewhere else that feeds the two existing locations. For example, if both services are coming from the same transformer, it might work out where you could install a new meter near the transformer.

DC

 

[BLUE72CAMARO]

How is the power being fed to each meter currently? Is there a common point somewhere between the two services that would lend itself to being the new metering point? You're not limited to having a meter at either of the two current locations. You could have a new meter somewhere else that feeds the two existing locations. For example, if both services are coming from the same transformer, it might work out where you could install a new meter near the transformer.

DC

So they are both fed from the same transformer which is on a pole on the opposite side of the road. It then comes across the road overhead to another pole in my front yard where it is spliced and the power to the house runs down the pole and goes underground into the house from there and the shed feed continues on over head to another pole in the back yard then on to the weatherhead on my shop.

I cant see Ameren wanting to put a meter out there to get basically bypass there scam. Plus the splice is 15 foot in the air or so right now.

At this point I am waiting to see what my first months bill comes out to be before raising hell with anyone I can get a hold of at Ameren.

 

[BLUE72CAMARO]

lol

It may not be 'thousands'...may not be plumbing. Prolly cheaper than the electrical work -

Heck, Id have told her 'yeah, there is living space in there' and let them prove otherwise. Or did you already confirm it is unimproved shop space?

But sounds like you know what you want to do

I did not confirm nor argue the point but both buildings have windows so it wouldnt be hard for them to see whats inside to make these determinations which they may have very well already done.

 

[Bopbop]

I finished my building about a year ago. I had a 200 amp service to my house and needed a 200 amp at the shop.
What I did was to have the house service from the power pole to the house upgraded from a 200 amp service to a 400 amp service and a new 400 amp meter can set. I was lucky because the power company provided the service upgrade and new meter can at no charge. They ran their numbers and figured the increased load would cover the increase. You already have a service so they may not be willing to invest the money to provide a combined service.
At the new meter can at the house we installed (2) 200 amp disconnects and from there backfeed the house service from one disconnect and from the second ran a new 200 amp service to the shop. This run was about 125 to 150 feet. I elected to use copper for my service rather than aluminum. The cost of the materials for this was about $2,500.00 for the conduit, wire, disconnects, etc. I do not have a break down of the labor cost.
At 20 dollars a month for your increase just the materials will be ten plus years. looking at your site picture I would think that you will have even a longer run from the house to the shop.
If you still want to look into combining the meters I would first find out how much the power company would charge to upgrade your service to the house. Second if the local building department has any requirements for engineered plans, permits, etc. and third defined the lengths, wire size etc and get a cost to install the new service from the house to the shop.
I would think at the end of the day the payback will take 15 to 20 years. Keep in mind they are the power company and they have the "POWER" to make our life hell.

 

[DC73]

I cant see Ameren wanting to put a meter out there to get basically bypass there scam. Plus the splice is 15 foot in the air or so right now.

I'm not sure it's their call. The new meter base is likely your responsibility anyway. I'd contact an electrician about putting a new meter base on that first pole that is in your yard with both services attached. Should be a pretty simple operation. If you can find an electrician that has experience working with the power company, that could work in your favor.

One issue I could see is that you might need permission to put the meter on that pole but meters are installed on service poles like that all the time. Before you go down this road, make sure they won't try to put the single meter on commercial rates. Generally, there is a legality known as "predominant use" that comes into play. If the house uses more power than does the shop, that meter should be on residential rates.

But, if you are actually running a business out of the shop, you might be screwed on this one.

DC

 

[BLUE72CAMARO]

I'm not sure it's their call. The new meter base is likely your responsibility anyway. I'd contact an electrician about putting a new meter base on that first pole that is in your yard with both services attached. Should be a pretty simple operation. If you can find an electrician that has experience working with the power company, that could work in your favor.

One issue I could see is that you might need permission to put the meter on that pole but meters are installed on service poles like that all the time. Before you go down this road, make sure they won't try to put the single meter on commercial rates. Generally, there is a legality known as "predominant use" that comes into play. If the house uses more power than does the shop, that meter should be on residential rates.

But, if you are actually running a business out of the shop, you might be screwed on this one.

DC

I could see this getting pretty pricey pretty quick as I would have to rewire from the transformer in with the exception from the pole to the house as the feed from transformer wouldnt be long enough nor would the feed to the shed to come down the pole to a meter.

As far as predominant use I would think the house would use more power than the sheds but there may be exceptions to that if I am out there working alot in the cooler months where the AC isnt running. I am a single guy so the house doesnt draw a tremendous amount of power most of the time since no one is in it.

I am definitely not running a business out of my shop. Work farm equipment for myself and a farmer I hunt on and then whatever project I may take on. Been living out there it seems the last few weeks restoring a kalamazoo horizontal bandsaw...

 

[dw1]

Just to give you a comparison, my minimum meter charge on my barn is $23 a month and the KWH is .1 cent higher than my house, I built my barn 4 years before my house. I put both services underground out to the street, and they are on different transformers. I actually put 2 pvc conduits from the house out to my barn when I built the house, Im not to concerned about the $23 a month, if I end up feeding the barn from the house its approx. 250'+. How long are you planning on staying there? I think its a plus having its own service, specially if you ever go to sell, just my opinion.

 

[theoldwizard1]

... it boils down to they are going to hit me for an extra $20 a month on the meter on the sheds for the minimum now.

Sounds right. You can usually get a discount for "agricultural use" if you store a tractor in there.

So I know the first question will be do I need a 200 amp service to my shop/sheds and my answer is I am not sure but most likely I think everyone will tell me to keep it with the tools I have.

So heres the big power users in my shop/sheds
bridgeport vertical mill
14x40 lathe
10hp rotary converter for 3 phase to power the above
welders - smaller mig and stig/tig setup
kalamazoo horizontal bandsaw that I am restoring
50 gallon air compressor
car lift
small plasma cutter

100A would be adequate UNLESS you plan on running 3 or 4 tools at one time.

I would look into replacing the motor on the mill and the lathe with 240V motors, unless they only get occasional use. Rotary phase converters are power hogs.

 

[BLUE72CAMARO]

Yeah buying new motors for both pieces of equipment and rewiring to go to single phase motors isn't going to happen. I use the mill and lathe maybe once or twice a week unless I have a project that has a lot of machining needed. Again this is my home shop that I use in my spare time. I work a 40 hour full time job and have a second job on the weekends that I usually work at least one day a weekend at. So on nights I get to work out there I am usually in the shop for 3-4 hours max and I am lucky if that happens more than a couple nights a week.

As far as the agricultural thing I guess its worth checking as there is a tractor that resides in the back building already and a few implements that I have redone for my hunting property the last few years.