Can Cat5e/Cat6 run in Conduit with Electrical Wires ?

[AP514]

Can Cat5e/Cat6 run in Conduit with Electrical Wires ?
I have 2 options for running my cables to the Detached garage.
1) Run with the 100 AMP wires in conduit to garage(last resort)
2) with some 120 wires that go to garage in conduit that run the Garage security lights (best option)

Option 2 still only gets me half way there due to fact it only runs up to the door switch in the house. I would have to fish the rest of the way up into attic thru 8 inches of solid insulation.
I have blown in paper insulation that was shot in wet and dries simi-hard.

I want to run from a 8 port Switch in the garage to another in the house..

Anyone have other options I might do ? as in maybe use some shield Cat if there is such a thing....

Thanks in advance
AP514

 

[Kevin Essiambre]

Category cable cannot be installed with line voltage wiring in the same raceway.

There are some fiber optic cables that are permitted to be installed with line voltage wiring in the same raceway.

FS.com has some great prices on fiber optic equipment. If you go this route, we can help you select the right parts before buying.

Question though, even running fiber optic cable with the line voltage wiring is not preferred if it can be avoided., what's stopping you from running a separate conduit/raceway for the data connection?

Edit to add: although canadian electrical code (the code that I am on) permitted certain fiber optic cables with power wires, it is a practice that I have not done. I would have to check NEC to verify this is permissible in the USA.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.

 

[Charlie K]

No. Your communication cable can not go in the conduit with power wiring.

 

[AP514]

30 feet of concrete between....
2nd option is the security light wires. I guess I could pull them..rarely ever have them on...but the conduit does go into the Breaker panel.

 

[Kevin Essiambre]

30 feet of concrete between....
2nd option is the security light wires. I guess I could pull them..rarely ever have them on...but the conduit does go into the Breaker panel.

Although it's not a preferred option, it is an option to use an aerial support rated cable with a messenger wire. It looks bad if it's the only aerial cable around.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

30 feet of concrete between....
2nd option is the security light wires. I guess I could pull them..rarely ever have them on...but the conduit does go into the Breaker panel.

Well you cant run it through the electrical panel either so reroute the conduit or do an overhead drop.

What will you be running on this ethernet link?

Alternatively, Have you considered doing a wireless point to point?

 

[AP514]

the light switches are a 3 way switch powered from the Garage(not 100% on that)
Wifi..not an option.

Running a few IPCams to a switch then into house...............

 

[ard]

Pull the "100Amp" wires out...pull the "120 wires" out...then pull them BACK INTO ONE CONDUIT.

Then you have an empty conduit...

Oh..wild idea..convert the wiring in the small conduit to 'low voltage control' wiring...so the existing switches are not controlling 120V. Like a relay or remote switch in the detached garage.

or.... abandon the wires in the small conduit, replace the house switch with a networked swithch. Out in the garage install a networked switch.


(how far? What size 100A wires? what size conduit?)

 

[jeepxj]

the light switches are a 3 way switch powered from the Garage(not 100% on that)
Wifi..not an option.

Running a few IPCams to a switch then into house...............

you can do a PtP setup which will give you ethernet in the garage and wireless bridge over.

preconfigured:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XH4Z9SK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

plug the output of the garage one into your switch out there and the input of the house one into your home network.

i've done dozens of these at this point. reliable. cheap. quick. the trifecta.

for some POE cameras and powering the loco in the garage gives you 3 cameras and 1 loco powered:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BP0SSAS/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Kevin Essiambre]

you can do a PtP setup which will give you ethernet in the garage and wireless bridge over.

preconfigured:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XH4Z9SK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

plug the output of the garage one into your switch out there and the input of the house one into your home network.

i've done dozens of these at this point. reliable. cheap. quick. the trifecta.

for some POE cameras and powering the loco in the garage gives you 3 cameras and 1 loco powered:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BP0SSAS/?tag=atomicindus08-20

This is what I would do. Itll be cheaper and better looking than any other options.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.

 

[ard]

This is what I would do. Itll be cheaper and better looking than any other options.
.

Ill respectfully disagree...

Giving up the 120V conduit for his Cat6 LV network cable would give him the reliability of a hardwired network 'backbone' to the garage. Hardware on the house side is 'a plug to push into the router'...the other end is a $25 switch. A few $ more if it has wifi for the garage.

He then need to 'recreate' a three way switch between house and garage using some kind of wireless set up. (From a failure viewpoint, if this glitches, all that happens is a light cant turn on or cant turn off.)

A wifi enabled switch would then be controlled using the existing wifi in the home and in the garage. These are a few $ I guess. $40-50 each?


I run a WISP here for an internet coop, so love Ubiquiti stuff- ..but I will always hardwire a connection (cable or fiber) if I can.

 

[Kevin Essiambre]

Ill respectfully disagree...



Giving up the 120V conduit for his Cat6 LV network cable would give him the reliability of a hardwired network 'backbone' to the garage. Hardware on the house side is 'a plug to push into the router'...the other end is a $25 switch. A few $ more if it has wifi for the garage.



He then need to 'recreate' a three way switch between house and garage using some kind of wireless set up. (From a failure viewpoint, if this glitches, all that happens is a light cant turn on or cant turn off.)



A wifi enabled switch would then be controlled using the existing wifi in the home and in the garage. These are a few $ I guess. $40-50 each?





I run a WISP here for an internet coop, so love Ubiquiti stuff- ..but I will always hardwire a connection (cable or fiber) if I can.

Without a second thought, i would run fiber. Where I am, we can run certain fiber optic cables with power lines. I wouldn't even have to remove the power from the conduit/raceway.

To be honest, I don't like using wireless items if I don't have to. I've only done one job with a wireless bridge (something about running 900 meters of fiber across a new warehouse foundation and up the crane didn't seem right. I was given what to install, so I can't complain). You can see the bridge between the "G" and the "Y" on the red banner. It's the white thing. I tried turning the photo. Its appearing sideways on Tapatalk. Oh well, I tried.

 

[jeepxj]

Ill respectfully disagree...

Giving up the 120V conduit for his Cat6 LV network cable would give him the reliability of a hardwired network 'backbone' to the garage. Hardware on the house side is 'a plug to push into the router'...the other end is a $25 switch. A few $ more if it has wifi for the garage.

He then need to 'recreate' a three way switch between house and garage using some kind of wireless set up. (From a failure viewpoint, if this glitches, all that happens is a light cant turn on or cant turn off.)

A wifi enabled switch would then be controlled using the existing wifi in the home and in the garage. These are a few $ I guess. $40-50 each?


I run a WISP here for an internet coop, so love Ubiquiti stuff- ..but I will always hardwire a connection (cable or fiber) if I can.

we're talking some security cameras and a wifi switch or two here. the reliability factor doesn't need 5 9's of up time. it's not a hospital operating room backhaul. there is a balance between reliability, cost and need.

if he gives up the 120v line then he has no power to the garage and needs to run a new 100a service, in which case he is burying conduit anyways so he would just run cat6 LV in its own conduit.

So his choice is: PtP for 175 bucks. or a lot of manual labor digging a trench with even more material cost that the PtP.

If all things were equal i would agree; hardwire that garage up. but reality is not always as such.

 

[jeepxj]

wait wait wait. I just read his thing again and thing i mis-understood it;

he has a conduit run with 100a service AND a 120v service for a light? aside from the code violation I change my opinion. yank the 120v out and put just ethernet in. then run the garage lights off a wifi switch. Alexa turn the garage lights on will be the new phrase of the house.

 

[MattT]

wait wait wait. I just read his thing again and thing i mis-understood it;

he has a conduit run with 100a service AND a 120v service for a light? aside from the code violation I change my opinion. yank the 120v out and put just ethernet in. then run the garage lights off a wifi switch. Alexa turn the garage lights on will be the new phrase of the house.

He did initially make it sound like the lighting circuit may be a code violation. Later post it appears the circuit does meet code but the OP does need to check so he is 100%.

the light switches are a 3 way switch powered from the Garage(not 100% on that)

 

[jeepxj]

He did initially make it sound like the lighting circuit may be a code violation. Later post it appears the circuit does meet code but the OP does need to check so he is 100%.

wouldn't that still violate the single means of disconnect for a building? i guess i get confused on the rules when you start back feeding power into a building its originally coming from.

he could put a low voltage switching solution and relay/contactor for making that house switch still work and the conduit only carry LV.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Code allows a 3-way circuit for lighting in this situation.

Since the light is on the garage, the feed needs to come from the garage panel.

 

[MattT]

Code allows a 3-way circuit for lighting in this situation.

Since the light is on the garage, the feed needs to come from the garage panel.

And since it sounds like the shop is fed from the house panel killing power to the house should kill that lighting circuit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

And since it sounds like the shop is fed from the house panel killing power to the house should kill that lighting circuit.

But thats not what the code calls for.

the light on the shop would need to be powered from the shop panel, regardless of whether the house panel feeds the shop panel. This is for safety reasons

 

[MattT]

But thats not what the code calls for.

the light on the shop would need to be powered from the shop panel, regardless of whether the house panel feeds the shop panel. This is for safety reasons

I guess I didn't go into enough detail. Full version is killing power to the house kills power to the shop which in turn kills power to the lighting circuit. In this instance.

Regards buildings on independent feeds, code might allow that lighting circuit but I damn sure wouldn't. For obvious safety reasons.

 

[ard]

wait wait wait. I just read his thing again and thing i mis-understood it;

he has a conduit run with 100a service AND a 120v service for a light? aside from the code violation I change my opinion. yank the 120v out and put just ethernet in. then run the garage lights off a wifi switch. Alexa turn the garage lights on will be the new phrase of the house.

lol

thats what I said way above....

 

[jeepxj]

lol

thats what I said way above....

i'm a bit dense today i guess. apologies.

 

[crook038]

Although not the same situation, I had 2 conduits running to an automatic standby generator from my house. The generator requirements changed and I had to run a 240v(line) wire to the generator from the switch, 240v from the generator output to the automatic switch(load) as well as a data cable between the generator and the switch. The larger conduit could not hold the 240V from the generator as well as 240V from the house do to conduit fill restriction. I verified that I could run the data cable with the 240V from house to generator if both cables were rated for the same insulation rating. The data cable was shielded to prevent interference and both were 600v insulation rating. I wonder if code has changed to not allow this setup?
Sean

 

[Kevin Essiambre]

Although not the same situation, I had 2 conduits running to an automatic standby generator from my house. The generator requirements changed and I had to run a 240v(line) wire to the generator from the switch, 240v from the generator output to the automatic switch(load) as well as a data cable between the generator and the switch. The larger conduit could not hold the 240V from the generator as well as 240V from the house do to conduit fill restriction. I verified that I could run the data cable with the 240V from house to generator if both cables were rated for the same insulation rating. The data cable was shielded to prevent interference and both were 600v insulation rating. I wonder if code has changed to not allow this setup?
Sean

Generator communications cables differ.

As long as the insulation is rated for the highest voltage present (in our case here, 300 volts) you can run class 1, 2, or 3 low voltage wiring with the line voltage wiring.

Unfortunately every category 5e or 6 cable I've ever seen or looked up cannot be rated for 300 volts, because the gauge is too small. IIRC, the wiring has to be 18awg or larger to get rated for 300 volts. Maybe I'll look this up later to confirm this.

There have already been a few different suggestions here.

-P2P setup wirelessly,
-Arial rated cable with a messenger
-Rework some wiring to free up a conduit
-Fiber optic cable that is approved to be installed with line voltage wiring in accordance with the NEC if its permitted by the NEC. Where I am we can install fiber optic with line voltage but I'm in Canada. I'm not 100% sure if the NEC permits it.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.

 

[macwhiz]

Not only can’t you run Ethernet in the same conduit as power because of the electrical code, it would be a horrible idea for your network. It would put a lot of noise on the wire.

Keep in mind that if you run Ethernet between buildings, you will also need lightning suppression installed on the Ethernet at point of entry. Yes, even for buried cable; lightning can find wires underground. That’s not cheap. Neither fiber nor WiFi have that issue.

 

[jeepxj]

Not only can’t you run Ethernet in the same conduit as power because of the electrical code, it would be a horrible idea for your network. It would put a lot of noise on the wire.

Keep in mind that if you run Ethernet between buildings, you will also need lightning suppression installed on the Ethernet at point of entry. Yes, even for buried cable; lightning can find wires underground. That’s not cheap. Neither fiber nor WiFi have that issue.

also of note; tons of building to building ethernet exists without lightning suppression and just rolls the dice about it.

 

[jeffmoss26]

n o p e

 

[themiller]

also of note; tons of building to building ethernet exists without lightning suppression and just rolls the dice about it.

I’d sure roll the dice at home, especially considering how cheap home network gear is.

 

[FreddiFiche]

Generator communications cables differ.

Unfortunately every category 5e or 6 cable I've ever seen or looked up cannot be rated for 300 volts, because the gauge is too small. IIRC, the wiring has to be 18awg or larger to get rated for 300 volts. Maybe I'll look this up later to confirm this.

I've seen (and used) Cat5e, rated for 600v. Used in Smart MCC's, with lots of VFD's. (lots of noise, more than just a current carrying conductor) They are quite reliable, in my experience.

I'm not so sure about needing to be bigger than 18Awg, since these are 22Awg.

See here:

https://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/pp/1585-pp003_-en-p.pdf

 

[Kevin Essiambre]

I've seen (and used) Cat5e, rated for 600v. Used in Smart MCC's, with lots of VFD's. (lots of noise, more than just a current carrying conductor) They are quite reliable, in my experience.

I'm not so sure about needing to be bigger than 18Awg, since these are 22Awg.

See here:

https://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/pp/1585-pp003_-en-p.pdf

Interesting. You learn something new every day.

Thank you for sharing this.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.

 

[chrismenke]

we're talking some security cameras and a wifi switch or two here. the reliability factor doesn't need 5 9's of up time. it's not a hospital operating room backhaul. there is a balance between reliability, cost and need.

I've had exactly 2 burglaries in 5 years. One, when my garage door panel decided to open my garage, and another when some some porch pirates decided to steal a package.

The first of these was not captured because my cameras decided to **** the bed. They were on wifi and mostly reliable. However, whichever 9 they didn't hit matched up nicely with my garage being pilfered.

The next incident occurred when all cameras were hardlined, and the results are clear and prosecutable (although SFPD don't give a ****).

So, even if you aren't trying to get six sigma reliability, run hard lines. Don't let a bird fart **** up your surveillance.

If you can't do that, run redundant channels so you don't miss the big event...don't ask me how I know this!

 

[jeepxj]

I've had exactly 2 burglaries in 5 years. One, when my garage door panel decided to open my garage, and another when some some porch pirates decided to steal a package.

The first of these was not captured because my cameras decided to **** the bed. They were on wifi and mostly reliable. However, whichever 9 they didn't hit matched up nicely with my garage being pilfered.

The next incident occurred when all cameras were hardlined, and the results are clear and prosecutable (although SFPD don't give a ****).

So, even if you aren't trying to get six sigma reliability, run hard lines. Don't let a bird fart **** up your surveillance.

If you can't do that, run redundant channels so you don't miss the big event...don't ask me how I know this!

the loco's won't suffer from a bird fart like the garbage stuff from best buy. they make reliable gear for a good price. not as reliable as a hard line sure, but worth while for most.

 

[Denwad]

Has anyone thought about Ethernet over Power ?

Something like this

 

[Kevin Essiambre]

Has anyone thought about Ethernet over Power ?



Something like this

I have a pair of these (not the same brand) still in the box. The instructions say to use them on the same circuit without the use of a surge suppressor or power bar. I've been meaning to see if they'll work through 4 panels over a long distance at my dads place.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.

 

[jeepxj]

Has anyone thought about Ethernet over Power ?

Something like this

they have come a long way. always worth a shot for an existing shop location.

 

[macwhiz]

the loco's won't suffer from a bird fart like the garbage stuff from best buy. they make reliable gear for a good price. not as reliable as a hard line sure, but worth while for most.

I’ve got a shop about 150 feet from the house. Two Ubiquiti NanoStation Loco M5s as the network link. Those units have a ten-MILE range. I run them at 5% power and the signal is rock solid, even during thunderstorms and white-out snow.

Heck, one of them is constantly covered in bird ****. Makes no difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal

 

[jeepxj]

I’ve got a shop about 150 feet from the house. Two Ubiquiti NanoStation Loco M5s as the network link. Those units have a ten-MILE range. I run them at 5% power and the signal is rock solid, even during thunderstorms and white-out snow.

Heck, one of them is constantly covered in bird ****. Makes no difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal

I can't wait to use a set at actual distance. some day.

 

[240sxguy]

I’ve got a shop about 150 feet from the house. Two Ubiquiti NanoStation Loco M5s as the network link. Those units have a ten-MILE range. I run them at 5% power and the signal is rock solid, even during thunderstorms and white-out snow.

Heck, one of them is constantly covered in bird ****. Makes no difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal

Impressive! Price seems fair too.

 

[Cuba_pete]

Power line networking will work fine. I use this in my shop, and a buddy I recommended it to uses a DVR security system for his horse barn...all on a plugnet, or other such system.

digitaltrends dot com/computing/everything-you-need-to-know-about-powerline-networking

(I haven’t been a member long enough to put the actual web address.)

 

[manwithtools]

I've seen (and used) Cat5e, rated for 600v. Used in Smart MCC's, with lots of VFD's. (lots of noise, more than just a current carrying conductor) They are quite reliable, in my experience.

I'm not so sure about needing to be bigger than 18Awg, since these are 22Awg.

See here:

https://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/pp/1585-pp003_-en-p.pdf

This is the correct answer, all conductors within a common raceway need to be rated for the highest voltage carried in the raceway. We do Ethernet in cable trays and control cabinets right next to 600 volt VFD and servo cables all the time. It's the insulation that determines voltage rating, nothing to do with wire ga (within reason). 600 volt Cat 5 and 6 is available from Belden as well as Rockwell and other vendors. Connectors are expensive and sometimes hard to get, but it's out there.