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subpanel choice

mendozer

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Wiring up my garage here soon and am going with a subpanel. I don't know enough about the differences between brands and lines to make a decision other than choosing amperage. I have a Siemens main panel and one think I like is the ability to use skinny breakers. If my subpanel is say 100 amp and only has 6 spaces, that allows me to have 12 circuit.

I'm going to require:
(4) 120V, 20A circuits (I could get away with 3 but I want 4)
(1) 240V 20 A circuit (dust collector)
(1) 240V, 20 A circuit (welder)
(2) 240V 15 A circuits (overhead radiant tube heaters)

So that's 11 "spaces" of regular sized breakers or 7 spaces if utilizing minis for the 240v circuits, the regular for the 120V circuits.

I was eyeballing the Square D or Eaton 100 or 125 Amp panels as they're pretty affordable at the Depot. I would prefer copper bus but if the other ones don't have issues then I'm fine with it.

Now...I know you're going to look at that list and say 'well geez you can combine circuits for some things'. I chose 3 or 4 120V circuits for a reason. One circuit will power one half the garage, two will be on the other half where most tools are, and one will be a retractable ceiling mount for my table saw which I mainly use in the middle. Most things are on caster so they move around. The DC and the welder don't draw over 15 amps so in theory they could share a circuit. the overhead heaters for sure need separate circuits. I plan on maybe even using one at a time if I'm just on one side of the garage.

So if I took out one 120V circuit and mixed the DC and welder, then I could use just 9 spaces, or 5 if I use minis.

As a homeowner and not a professional shop, is there a reason for me to pick one brand over the others? I see that GE has the skinny Q line breakers, so I could save panel space that way, as does Siemens. Square D is easily available but I don't see skinny breakers.

I did my NEC load calculation to 16,590 Watts, leading me to NEED officially a 70 amp panel, but those don't have enough space so I'm looking into the 100 it 125 amps and just use a smaller breaker. Or I guess I could use a 100 amp breaker and not technically need it. But I could probably get away with just feeding the panel with say 50 amps. the most I can see on at one time would be:
2 heaters in the winter at full blast, 6000 watts, 25 amps
table Saw 13 amps
dust collector 12 amps
Lights and radio are on separate house circuit so 0 there
Maybe someone helping with the miter saw? 13 amps.
so that's 63 Amps and that's peak draw.

Am I overthinking this and don't actually need the power I'm thinking?

It's a roughly 400 sq ft garage
 
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wyliesdiesels

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If you go with a siemens panel then you can swap breakers between panels if need in a pinch.

cheapest wire is almost always #2 aluminum- either SER for attached or MHF for detached in conduit. this would give you 90a not counting voltage drop for long runs...

need more details here
 
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mendozer

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Attached. Only going about 10 feet from the main. Either outside in conduit then back in, or maybe routing through the wall, haven't decided yet. I'll be putting the wire in some kind of protection, conduit for outdoors or the flex wire for inside, tacked to the wall. I could notch the studs and go behind sheathing since I'm going to do this then insulate and sheath the garage.
 
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mendozer

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looking at home depot online and the only SER's they have is aluminum 2-2-2-4 for 1.48/foot (that's rated for 90-100 amps depending on the temp) or 4-4-4-6 for $1.21/foot (65-75 amps) or copper 3-3-3-5 for $6.72/ft (100-115 amps).

The copper's probably overkill for that amp rating, and if I only put a 70 amp breaker in the main, then it doesn't matter does it?
 

wyliesdiesels

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looking at home depot online and the only SER's they have is aluminum 2-2-2-4 for 1.48/foot (that's rated for 90-100 amps depending on the temp) or 4-4-4-6 for $1.21/foot (65-75 amps) or copper 3-3-3-5 for $6.72/ft (100-115 amps).

The copper's probably overkill for that amp rating, and if I only put a 70 amp breaker in the main, then it doesn't matter does it?

#2 al is 90a

you need to look at the 75°€ column for ampacity. 90° c is for derating only.

SER doesnt need to be in conduit if not subject to damage. it can be ran in the walls
 
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mendozer

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Is there any reason to NOT use aluminum SER? Would it mesh better with aluminum bus bars?
 

u2slow

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I would still go for a 100A panel with at least a 16-24 spaces. Your 240 loads will take two spots. Matching breakers with your existing panel makes sense. (unless its FPE or Zinsco)

Square D QO has 'skinnies' in 15 and 20A. They're just doubled up. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...TL-Tandem-Circuit-Breaker-QOT1515CP/100076261

I might pool the heaters together on one circuit, if allowed. Commonly done with baseboard heat around here.

Also, don't worry about getting everything wired beforehand. IMO it can be difficult to know how you will use your space. Surface conduit looks good in a shop - and its easy to change around since its not buried in your walls.
 

dcg9381

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Siemens seems to be one of the better-upheld choices from electricians. I'd say that it's a no-brainer if your existing panel is already Siemens. I've used quite a few of their panel products and I've been pretty happy....

Use a 100A panel (minimum) with 50% more spaces than what you need right now.. :)
 

mike93lx

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Why would you intentionally put in a small panel? Get a 20 space. The up front cost increase is minimal. Lowe's has a 20 space Siemens with main and several breakers for under $75.

Aluminum feeder is fine
 

u2slow

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I understood Eaton to be the go-to for the low cost choice...

Probably varies with suppliers and regions. Its Siemens here for the major contractors and supply houses. (FPE used to hold that spot, as late as 2002.)

Personally, Square D QO is my 'goto' brand when there's no other considerations.
 

Zeke

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"(1) 240V, 20 A circuit (welder)"

Was that a typo? What you need is a 50 amp. Even if you are using an el cheapo welder that doesn't use more than 20A on a 240v circuit, chances are that you will upgrade at some point. I'd plan for that.

Me? I currently :D get by on a 30A circuit shared by a cabinet table saw. That is soon to change.
 

Norcal

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I understood Eaton to be the go-to for the low cost choice...

I call Eaton BR “Zinsco II” because it is bottom of the line **** and it has Zinsco heritage because of the Challenger interiors, and they used to use Zinsco main breakers on the 150-225A panels.
 
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mendozer

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"(1) 240V, 20 A circuit (welder)"

Was that a typo? What you need is a 50 amp. Even if you are using an el cheapo welder that doesn't use more than 20A on a 240v circuit, chances are that you will upgrade at some point. I'd plan for that.

Me? I currently :D get by on a 30A circuit shared by a cabinet table saw. That is soon to change.

I have the Lincoln power mig 210. Input specs state 15 amps going in. But previously I did have it on a 30 amp plug on the last house
 

mike93lx

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Yes sorry I meant if all my "connections" were aluminum vs copper

Doesn't matter. If you are splicing aluminum to copper, you need the right connector, but aluminum, torqued to the right spec with anti ox paste (if the manufacturer calls for it) is perfectly safe and will work fine.

AL #2 SER is a great value and provides tons of capacity. $5/ft extra for copper is silly.

Put in a big panel and don't overthink it
 
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u2slow

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"(1) 240V, 20 A circuit (welder)"

Was that a typo? What you need is a 50 amp. Even if you are using an el cheapo welder that doesn't use more than 20A on a 240v circuit, chances are that you will upgrade at some point. I'd plan for that.

I'm in the other camp. Don't a wire a 50A receptacle until you need it.

I wired my general use 120v/20a receptacles with MWBCs, so I added in a 6-20R (240V) every so often for optional places to plug in my 20A welder or compressor.
 

Zeke

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I have the Lincoln power mig 210. Input specs state 15 amps going in. But previously I did have it on a 30 amp plug on the last house

Nice. Newer inverter welders do economize on electricity. That's how I get by. I do have in my collection an old Lincoln SP 100 that I can take anywhere as long as I can get a healthy 120v 20A outlet. It's not dual voltage.

But honestly, if you're gonna set aside a dedicated welder circuit, why not up the amps to at least 30?

Like Dawg says....
 

Falcon67

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Am I overthinking this and don't actually need the power I'm thinking?

It's a roughly 400 sq ft garage

I have a 24x40, detached, 130' feed. The 20 space 100A box is full, has 240 well pump, lift, mill, lathe, heater, air compressor and RV hookup. Two 120V AC units total 24K BTU along with misc 120V power tools including a Hobart MIG. Run it all off a 70A breaker, no trips.
 
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mendozer

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Nice. Newer inverter welders do economize on electricity. That's how I get by. I do have in my collection an old Lincoln SP 100 that I can take anywhere as long as I can get a healthy 120v 20A outlet. It's not dual voltage.

But honestly, if you're gonna set aside a dedicated welder circuit, why not up the amps to at least 30?

Like Dawg says....

Well I put in 30 that's not a problem. I can still power the DC with it since I wired the plug for that myself and it's gauge appropriate for 30 since that's what I had at the last house. Last time I used the DC, welder, and homebrew panel off that plug. My homebrew required 25 amps hence why I sized everything to 30.
 

dscheidt

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Why would you intentionally put in a small panel? Get a 20 space. The up front cost increase is minimal. Lowe's has a 20 space Siemens with main and several breakers for under $75.

Aluminum feeder is fine

Totally install the biggest panel that will fit. Your needs will change. You will get a 240V table saw or planer or jointer or something. If you put in a small panel, it'll be a pain. Put in a bigger one, and you'll never worry when you decide you need to air condition your garage.
 

wyliesdiesels

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I understood Eaton to be the go-to for the low cost choice...

Well not quite.

Eaton makes 2 panel lines for residential.

The BR line which is the low cost choice you mentioned and the CH line which is really nice with copper bus bars. Eaton CH is the go to for premium!
 
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mendozer

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Ok I like all this feedback. Think I'll go with a Siemens for the sake of breaker parts and it seems all the breakers at the store are roughly the same price anyways.

Out of curiosity, if I go bigger like 20 spaces, does a double pole breaker have more reliable components than say one of those tandem breakers? I mean there's gotta be a downside to them otherwise wouldn't everyone switch to skinny breakers for the sake of space?

My brother told me to look for a max Sub load indicator on my panel. I read through the sticker but didn't see anything.
 

mike93lx

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tandem breakers are expensive and offer much less space to work with to make your connections. they should never be a first option. they are a compromise for a fully loaded panel.

your goal should be to have enough space to not need any, IMO. When starting from scratch, this is easy to solve for.
 
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mendozer

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https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens...Lug-Indoor-Load-Center-P2020L1125CU/203027250

this will do the trick then. I'm pretty sure my current breakers are PL type. Doesn't have a whole panel shutoff, but I can always walk into the next room and switch the breaker on the main panel off. So 70 amps should be the breaker for now right? I mean I have a 200 amp main, should the breaker to the sub really be 100 amps if I don't need it?
 
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mendozer

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Upon further review, those PL breakers are not what I have. Mine require these weird longer claw QC breakers. I remember now I bought a PL and it wouldn't snap into place.

Can someone offer what the "plug on neutral" means for the Square Ds? I assume the bus is neutral which catches the breaker going in, then the hot feeds into the side of the breaker. But isn't that how they all work?
 

dscheidt

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Upon further review, those PL breakers are not what I have. Mine require these weird longer claw QC breakers. I remember now I bought a PL and it wouldn't snap into place.

Can someone offer what the "plug on neutral" means for the Square Ds? I assume the bus is neutral which catches the breaker going in, then the hot feeds into the side of the breaker. But isn't that how they all work?

AFCI, GFCI, and dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers need a breaker specific neutral. With a normal GFCI (etc) breaker, you land both the hot and neutral on the breaker, and then there is a 'pigtail' neutral that goes from the breaker to the neutral bar. The plug on panels have a neutral bar that extends down the panel; the plug on breakers connect to it, and have no pigtail. Saves time and mess in the panel.

shows it pretty clearly. The homeline stuff works the same way.
 
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mendozer

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AFCI, GFCI, and dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers need a breaker specific neutral. With a normal GFCI (etc) breaker, you land both the hot and neutral on the breaker, and then there is a 'pigtail' neutral that goes from the breaker to the neutral bar. The plug on panels have a neutral bar that extends down the panel; the plug on breakers connect to it, and have no pigtail. Saves time and mess in the panel.

shows it pretty clearly. The homeline stuff works the same way.

Thanks, that make it seem very desirable then. So am I wise to simplify say a GFCI breaker in the main panel that feeds the entire sub? Or since they're just regular plugs don't even worry about it?
 

Norcal

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GFCI breakers are more costly then GFCI receptacles, a shop needs one or the other, it could be more convenient to use GFCI breakers if they are grouped together it will be easier to reset if a trip occurs. All 15 & 20A receptacles require GFCI protection with no exceptions in shops, garages, & outbuildings, even for ceiling mounted ones.
 

checkthisout

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The Square D Homeline 40 space (80 circuit) panel is $140.00 and even comes with several breakers.
 

ddawg16

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The Square D Homeline 40 space (80 circuit) panel is $140.00 and even comes with several breakers.

I have the SqD 20 space (40 ckt) 200A box. More than enough....though in retrospect, the 30 or 40 space would have been a bit better.

The reality.....I still have a few spare breakers....but I'm already really generous with the number of ckts I have. Kitchen alone has 5.

I have yet to overload any ckt.
 
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