I am reading up on the transmission some more, looks like there were only like 5 different torque converters, I just need to figure out what they were designed for, looks like it was based on torque at a given RPM, not sure if it was peak, idle, or something else. I am not convinced that going from a close to wide ratio trans would even phase the computer, but I need to get more info.
Above 1200 Sq/FT The Salvage Garage
- Thread starter Strouty
- Start date
Wokspaces above 1200 squarefeet.
xtremek
Well-known member
Is it time to tap into some local drag racers knowledgeable in torque converters?
xtremek
Well-known member
No doubt, but will some of the knowledge transfer from other applications?
I don't think so, I mean from a fluid aspect yes, but the interface of the transmission is not even close to the same, the torque converter is not a floating unit like a car, the torque and horsepower curves would be totally different, the transmissions are doing entirely different things. I am not ruling anything out, but I suspect even the people dealing with the Allison 1000 series (think duramax) would shy away as the interface is different. The books I have discuss how to pick a torque converter, so I need to pick the brains of some Allison tech guys.
The funny thing is the integration with the engine seems to be the easy part, then you get into the ABS and any traction control, that seems tougher, I will need more info from the manufacturers of the other equipment to figure that out.
What I do think is that if you get the right torque converter for the engine, after that, the programming calibration is less of an issue, most engines turn between 2100 and 2300 RPM, I will have to examine how my trucks shift, I am pretty sure they actually shift at the governed RPM under full throttle, I know light throttle they shift at much lower RPMs. These transmissions can be programmed from Allison to be 4 speed, 5 speed, or 6 speed depending on the application, it all seems relatively arbitrary and based on the end user. The driveline definitely comes into play, the rotating speeds will increase significantly going from a 4 speed to a 6 speed, but most trucks were designed to do highway speeds and almost any truck can be governed by speed rather than just RPM, even I would probably govern my speed to 80, no need to go faster than that. My goal is to get the normal driving range into the fuel economy area of the engine, thankfully this also puts it into the power range you want so passing or hill climbs will be efficient and powerful. Most of my trucks currently are geared to the RPM governor and that stinks, having another gear or higher rear end gears would allow me to be at a much lower RPM and still have plenty of power for the fun feeling.
The detroit 50 series (4 cylinder) has a strange power band, after driving the truck that I didn't want to buy yesterday it was apparent that the engine is designed around fuel economy. It reminded me of my 6.5 diesel in the burbs, not overly powerful, but plenty to get the job done. The 50 series has plenty of torque to get you moving, but the horsepower appears to come from the turbo, so you have some perceived lag, yet the engine is steadily moving you forward, I suspect it doesn't change much loaded as the torque is really what gets you moving, the horsepower keeps you going after that. It may be that the turbo can be upgraded, generally this hits your fuel economy, so it might not be worth it. Regardless, I was impressed enough with the truck that I am still moving forward with my project. Just to let you know, the truck I test drove had 875k miles on it. That has to be the most miles I have seen on a "light duty" business class truck, it made me feel warm and fuzzy.
The funny thing is the integration with the engine seems to be the easy part, then you get into the ABS and any traction control, that seems tougher, I will need more info from the manufacturers of the other equipment to figure that out.
What I do think is that if you get the right torque converter for the engine, after that, the programming calibration is less of an issue, most engines turn between 2100 and 2300 RPM, I will have to examine how my trucks shift, I am pretty sure they actually shift at the governed RPM under full throttle, I know light throttle they shift at much lower RPMs. These transmissions can be programmed from Allison to be 4 speed, 5 speed, or 6 speed depending on the application, it all seems relatively arbitrary and based on the end user. The driveline definitely comes into play, the rotating speeds will increase significantly going from a 4 speed to a 6 speed, but most trucks were designed to do highway speeds and almost any truck can be governed by speed rather than just RPM, even I would probably govern my speed to 80, no need to go faster than that. My goal is to get the normal driving range into the fuel economy area of the engine, thankfully this also puts it into the power range you want so passing or hill climbs will be efficient and powerful. Most of my trucks currently are geared to the RPM governor and that stinks, having another gear or higher rear end gears would allow me to be at a much lower RPM and still have plenty of power for the fun feeling.
The detroit 50 series (4 cylinder) has a strange power band, after driving the truck that I didn't want to buy yesterday it was apparent that the engine is designed around fuel economy. It reminded me of my 6.5 diesel in the burbs, not overly powerful, but plenty to get the job done. The 50 series has plenty of torque to get you moving, but the horsepower appears to come from the turbo, so you have some perceived lag, yet the engine is steadily moving you forward, I suspect it doesn't change much loaded as the torque is really what gets you moving, the horsepower keeps you going after that. It may be that the turbo can be upgraded, generally this hits your fuel economy, so it might not be worth it. Regardless, I was impressed enough with the truck that I am still moving forward with my project. Just to let you know, the truck I test drove had 875k miles on it. That has to be the most miles I have seen on a "light duty" business class truck, it made me feel warm and fuzzy.
RADcustom
Well-known member
I spent 10 years driving an FL106 with a series 50 as my daily vac truck. Overall its a good motor. My truck has 4.56 gears with a 9 speed eaton-fuller. Top speed is 74mph @ 2150rpm on low pro 22.5's. It does have it's weak points. The oil pump/balance assembly is the biggest. I've had to replace it twice and it's a $3000 part. Also, not all Detroit dealers can get Series 50 parts. While it shares many parts with the bigger Series 60, the 50 specific parts have to come from a certified series 50 dealer or the open market like eBay. Also, that blue "s" shaped hose that connects the water pump to oil cooler is over $200. I know you are planning on running an automatic in yours, but feel free to pm me if you have any questions.
Glad to hear some real world input. Most people just call me dumb and walk away. 
Most of these engines are in transit buses not trucks and that makes things difficult. My engine has fairly low miles at 190k and the only issue I noticed was at idle there were a couple injectors that seem to be a bit erratic. I plan on going through the upper end and replacing injectors as well as adjusting things. Also thinking about Jakes, but not sure how that plays into my transmission issues.
Most of these engines are in transit buses not trucks and that makes things difficult. My engine has fairly low miles at 190k and the only issue I noticed was at idle there were a couple injectors that seem to be a bit erratic. I plan on going through the upper end and replacing injectors as well as adjusting things. Also thinking about Jakes, but not sure how that plays into my transmission issues.
I have spent a good three hours on the phone, talked to some great people, I am not nearly as worried as I was yesterday about making the transmission work in the truck. I still have a bunch of research to do, but my spirits are high, just wish it wasn't snowing out right now.
BoilermakerFan
Well-known member
Does my 7 hour "commute" from SW Indiana to Holland, MI count if I only have to drive it every two to three weeks and I stay in Western MI the whole week I'm there?
xtremek
Well-known member
^ NOPE!!!! lol. Yeah, I'm harsh. I worked with a guy who used to commute from Kokomo Ind. to Warren Mi every week. Rented a room from a local lady and drove home every Thursday night.
xtremek
Well-known member
FYI, I just figured out I've commuted roughly 500,000 miles to this job. It's taken about 8 1/2 years to do that. It would take the average American male to the age of 46 (if he started driving when he was 16) to do that.
RADcustom
Well-known member
Glad to hear some real world input. Most people just call me dumb and walk away.
Most of these engines are in transit buses not trucks and that makes things difficult. My engine has fairly low miles at 190k and the only issue I noticed was at idle there were a couple injectors that seem to be a bit erratic. I plan on going through the upper end and replacing injectors as well as adjusting things. Also thinking about Jakes, but not sure how that plays into my transmission issues.
Before you go replacing injectors, check the connections on the injectors harness. That's all the white wires under the valve cover. I had one loose that caused a dead cyl. I have a spare engine w/ 45k on it that came out of a fire truck that has Jake brakes and it was an automatic. So what your planning can be done.
PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I flew a million miles... now my arms are practically disabled.
My wife drove about 250k commuting to her job. When they changed it's hours, I told her to get out. Now drives three miles each way.
I prefer things with my job, short commute, then I get paid to drive around, gotta be pushing a million miles by now. Thankfully the miles driven yearly have dropped by half these last 10 years. The internet is basically putting me out of a job just as I get to retirement age, a good way to wrap up a career.
It was really cold the last couple days, only good thing is the ground has frozen, so plowing snow is much better, just in time for another storm.
Today I managed to get the PTO, shaft, and pump hooked back up on Perk, but there is this new cap that was installed on the air shift portion, it was much shorter before, now it hits the leaf spring shackle and I had to remove it to install the PTO. I am not sure why it was changed, but hopefully I can get that figured out next week. Spilled a bunch of hydraulic fluid in the maroon burb, smells awesome. The next week should see some movement on these projects I have, will feel good to get something done for a change.
Today I managed to get the PTO, shaft, and pump hooked back up on Perk, but there is this new cap that was installed on the air shift portion, it was much shorter before, now it hits the leaf spring shackle and I had to remove it to install the PTO. I am not sure why it was changed, but hopefully I can get that figured out next week. Spilled a bunch of hydraulic fluid in the maroon burb, smells awesome. The next week should see some movement on these projects I have, will feel good to get something done for a change.
harley jim
Well-known member
[emoji106][emoji481][emoji481] progress is a good thing
Sent from my SM-A102U using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-A102U using Tapatalk
harley jim
Well-known member
If we didn't have to take it back apart 10 time it wouldn't be nearly as much fun and as always by about the 6th time we do a complete redesign anyway.
I have faith in you buddy, I see the research and thought you put into these modifications and know you are not just a hack, you will do it right or scrap it.
Sent from my SM-A102U using Tapatalk
I have faith in you buddy, I see the research and thought you put into these modifications and know you are not just a hack, you will do it right or scrap it.
Sent from my SM-A102U using Tapatalk
xtremek
Well-known member
"Two steps forward...." Or the one I made up, "if you pound on the nail long enough, eventually it'll go in".
xtremek
Well-known member
Plenty of shop time today, or more office work.
Good news is the cover is more of a dust cover and won't really be an issue removed, the guy that did the work actually told me that it didn't have one when I brought it in and the clearance issue was most likely why. So the PTO and everything can stay! I am going to see if I can fashion a rubber boot or something to protect it from the elements.
xtremek
Well-known member
Good news.
I thought so. Looking through all my manuals for the engine and transmission, I am going to need to buy some new tools, found some good deals and will most likely buy them sooner as you can’t always find a good deal on used stuff. Luckily, I have a lot of what is required, but there are a few pieces that are not going to be cheap. I plan on using a credit card to offset my payback timeframe, because I pay it off every month, I can charge something now and not have to pay for it until March, I love using their money for free. For now I am only buying a few tools, should be under a grand, the expensive tools will be needed as I get further along, so I will keep my eyes peeled for good deals.
xtremek
Well-known member
Sounds like a decent plan on the tools. How many projects will this help you get off your plate?
86turbodsl
Well-known member
Wow. I worked with a guy who drove from Just north of Indianapolis to Ypsilanti every week. He had a little apartment there somewhere. At that point in don't know why you don't just move.
Strouty, have you got pics of what you've done so far? I can't visualize as well from the text.
PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
We will need to start getting drone images of Strouty's yard to prove or disprove acquisitions or sales...
I will post pictures of what has arrived so far, almost all the AN fittings and hose that I ordered has arrived. I think I will be ordering some soft jaws for the vise, looks like it will make the AN fittings easier to install. Tonight I might actually get to work on the OGMC, now that the parts are here. Also last week was a bad one, between weather and other things, the little time I had was motivationless (not a word, but I like it).
Pines, there won't be any trucks removed yet, I have to tear them down and deal with the parts, it will probably be a bit slower than usual as I have to find good places to store the usable parts. I figure making some racks and carts for the engines, transmissions, front and rear ends, this way they are accessible.
Pines, there won't be any trucks removed yet, I have to tear them down and deal with the parts, it will probably be a bit slower than usual as I have to find good places to store the usable parts. I figure making some racks and carts for the engines, transmissions, front and rear ends, this way they are accessible.
xtremek
Well-known member
It sounds like a good plan. Storage of parts is a pain though.
racer-john
Well-known member
Unless they are on wheels.
TOTO
Well-known member
The soft jaws do make it much easier. I would recommend a set of AN wrenches also. This is what I have.
What type of specialty tools (Engine/Trans) are you looking for. I have some 50 series and Allison tools that came from an city bus shop auction a few years ago. I have no need for them and would be glad to go thru them if you let me know what you are looking for.
What type of specialty tools (Engine/Trans) are you looking for. I have some 50 series and Allison tools that came from an city bus shop auction a few years ago. I have no need for them and would be glad to go thru them if you let me know what you are looking for.
Attachments
TOTO, I am looking at wiring tools and computers right now, but I would be interested in almost anything to do with the 50 series motors. Is it stuff that you know what it is or are you expecting me to know what it is? I am not up on all the specialty tools yet, neither of my Detroit motors are in bad shape, the 60 series in OMO has about 40k mikes and 4K hours on it. The 50 series has a lot more miles, but is in good shape overall.
Use tape over the place where you cut the hose, helps prevent wire wrap from unwrapping. Small cuttoff wheel works very well for this. Also I used stop **** grease for assembly, it is a fluorine based lubricant that is inert to all but fluorine based compounds so it is good for assembly.
You can cool the fitting but keep the hose warmer it is easier to fit if not frozen.
What size are you using?
TOTO
Well-known member
I started to inventory them last year. I will look for the list and try to complete it. What model/series is the trans ?
The trans is a 4560P similar to the B500 in the busses, I do not know what the differences are yet, I will be doing more research for sure. The way the transmissions are setup they have four modules and some parts may be interchanged, I just don’t know what parts yet.
Pi, thanks for the tips, looks like sizes that I will be using 6, 8, and 10 for now.
Pi, thanks for the tips, looks like sizes that I will be using 6, 8, and 10 for now.