To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Shared neutral

Kaizen

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
6,948
Location
New England
I ran a black/red/wht/green in emt for outlets. Used red for three and black for three. Had both on their own breaker. Electrician says I need either another neutral or a two pole 20amp breaker. No problem but how is this different when someone runs a 12/3 Romex? Is that supposed to have a two pole breaker as well?


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Bad Habit

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
2,013
Location
Chumstick WA
Doesn't have to be a 2 pole breaker, but does need a handle tie so they are connected together. If you only shut off 1 circuit, the neutral would still have current from the other circuit. You need to shut them both down so the neutral wouldn't have any current on it.
 

Terry D

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 25, 2015
Messages
2,202
Location
St. Louis, MO.
He is correct. With todays codes, It needs to be a 2-pole breaker or a tie handle, which pretty much is the same thing. A multiwire branch circuit needs to open both hots simultaneously.
 
Last edited:
OP
K

Kaizen

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
6,948
Location
New England
Thanks. I will have to redo some breakers in my home panel before the inspection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

AntonLargiader

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
Messages
1,372
Location
Charlottesville, VA
Part of the requirement is to ensure that the circuits are on different legs. With individual breakers - especially using ThHN - you could put them anywhere, including on the same leg. That would overload the neutral. With double or handle-tied, that can’t happen.
 

pattenp

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
10,175
Location
Virginia - USA
He is correct. With todays codes, It needs to be a 2-pole breaker or a tie handle, which pretty much is the same thing. A multiwire branch circuit needs to open both hots simultaneously.

Well.. you're close. Two single pole breakers with a handle tie provide independent trip so a fault on one leg does not trip the other. A two pole common trip breaker disconnects both legs simultaneously on a fault. The two pole or handle tied singles are required so to disconnect both legs when servicing. When the circuit is providing line-to-line loads then the breaker has to be a two pole common trip to provide total disconnection on a fault.
 

ddawg16

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
21,005
Location
S. California
I ran a black/red/wht/green in emt for outlets. Used red for three and black for three. Had both on their own breaker. Electrician says I need either another neutral or a two pole 20amp breaker. No problem but how is this different when someone runs a 12/3 Romex? Is that supposed to have a two pole breaker as well?


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

I think I see where you are confused.

12/3 Romex can be use for either a MWBC or 3-way switch.

For Clarity....when we say 12/3 Romex....Red/Black/White/Gnd. With 12/3, or 12/2, the Gnd is assumed.

When 12/3 is used for a 3-way switch/light...the neutral current is the same....and this ckt is connected to a single 120Vac breaker.

But when used in a MWBC (Multi-Wire Branch Ckt), the neutral is carrying all of the return current.

Real important point. If using 2 breakers, they must be next to each other. (I'm assuming a 240Vac feed to the panel). If you use 2 breakers and they are on the same leg as the supply, then the neutral could be carrying up to 40A (assuming 20A breakers).

Using 2 breakers next to each other....if you measure the voltage (Black to Red), you get 240 Vac. But either black or red to neutral is 120Vac. In a MWBC, the neutral will only carry the difference current. In other words, if the black and red legs have exactly the same load, the current down the neutral will be 0.

The reason the handles on the breakers have to be tied is because if you turn off one, the other ckt will still have voltage on it....hence, the neutral will have current in it. This exposes the person working on it to be shocked if they lift the wire. Of the neutral comes loose....you can have up to 240Vac on a line you expect to be at 120 Vac.

As always....Mike Holt's forum is a good source of info. We also have a couple of guys here who are the 'go to' for accurate info.

https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/mwbc.130796/
 
OP
K

Kaizen

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
6,948
Location
New England
I got some double pole breakers yesterday and corrected my mistake. Appreciate everyone teaching me the right way


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

yeldogt

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
18,184
Maybe I'm confused .....

I'm a big user of wiremold -- kitchens and baths where I want hidden outlets. Also .. in laundry rooms for the same reason. Anyplace really. Even in areas where there is no water and no requirement for ground fault -- the common neural in the two circuit wiremold has required a special twin breaker.

I was told the clip (whatever you call it) over two singles is not code. I was told the clip is to insure both would be turned off together if done manually .. but tripping one from a fault will not guarantee the trip of the other?

Has to be a manufactured twin .... they are not cheap .. I have not bought any of the non ground faults recently.
 

cybrdyke

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,449
Location
USA
All kinds of weirdness. Incompatible devices that weren't known to be on a circuit, but were tied in with a shared neutral cause headaches. Leakage current from unknown sources is a problem. It manifests in flickering, latent dimming, lights not going off completely and general misbehavior.
 

dave*99

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2009
Messages
4,286
Location
Coastal NJ
The OP has a MWBC, and plans to get the handle ties, he should also wire nut and pig tail the neutrals at the receptacles.
 

exranger06

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
1,686
Location
CT
Maybe I'm confused .....

I'm a big user of wiremold -- kitchens and baths where I want hidden outlets. Also .. in laundry rooms for the same reason. Anyplace really. Even in areas where there is no water and no requirement for ground fault -- the common neural in the two circuit wiremold has required a special twin breaker. Wrong.

I was told the clip (whatever you call it) it's called a handle tie. over two singles is not code. There's nothing wrong with using them and they are to code. If they weren't, they wouldn't be manufactured I was told the clip is to insure both would be turned off together if done manually That's correct. .. but tripping one from a fault will not guarantee the trip of the other? That's also correct. If one breaker trips, the other breaker will stay powered. That's not a danger or a code violation. If anything, that's an ADVANTAGE over using a 2-pole breaker. Only the breaker that has a fault trips. The other one stays on because there was no fault on that part of the circuit. If there's no fault, then why does it need to trip?? Let it stay energized and keep your stuff powered up!


Has to be a manufactured twin Again, wrong..... they are not cheap .. I have not bought any of the non ground faults recently.
See my comments in red above.
Now, that only applies to "regular" breakers that do NOT have an AFCI or GFCI built in. If you're using an AFCI or GFCI breaker (or combo AFCI/GFCI breaker), then yes, you need to use a 2-pole breaker, because the AFCI/GFCI circuitry needs to compare the current coming out of the breaker to the neutral current coming back into the breaker. That's why, on an AFCI and/or GFCI breaker, you connect the neutral wire to the breaker, instead of directly to the neutral bar like on a regular breaker. You can't have current from other breakers getting mixed up in that. A regular breaker though, doesn't care about the neutral current. It only "sees" how much current is leaving through the hot leg. As long as that amount of current is below its rating, it's happy and it keeps the power on.
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
The OP has a MWBC, and plans to get the handle ties, he should also wire nut and pig tail the neutrals at the receptacles.
Right, do not want anywhere that has current on it to be opened. Don't use the device as a junction. Its part of the single yoke rule, turn one breaker and half a spit outlet is off, the other half hot. I have wired up those and simply use a double pole breaker.
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
I saw a panel in a church recent was interesting. It was crowded and had every legal tandem it could in it. I could count various guys working on it. The last from a real master used every trick there was to make it fit. He missed one,,, both of a multi on same leg but,,,,,,,,, in the end it was both lights with light fixed load, wasn't a fatal flaw.
If anything, that's an ADVANTAGE over using a 2-pole breaker. Only the breaker that has a fault trips. The other one stays on because there was no fault on that part of the circuit. If there's no fault, then why does it need to trip?? Let it stay energized and keep your stuff powered up!
Yes, and it says which circuit did it. Just dont want to do it on a split duplex, when its on the same device.
 
Last edited:

Dh3256

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
1,145
Two single pole breakers with a handle tie provide independent trip so a fault on one leg does not trip the other.

That seems to be either stated incorrectly or incorrect. The handle tie connects the breakers together so they both turn off if either one trips. A fault on one leg causes the other leg to turn off, due to the tie bar.
 
Last edited:

Dh3256

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
1,145
If they weren't, they wouldn't be manufactured

There are a number of things manufactured and sold at the box stores that are not to code. For example, none of the meter boxes available in this area meet code. Maybe they meet code somewhere, but they are not NEC compliant.

If one breaker trips, the other breaker will stay powered.

I'm wondering if you are thinking about something other than what we call "handle ties". What the manufacturers list as a handle tie is a bar that connects together the handles of two adjacent breakers. If one breaker is manually turned on or off, the other breaker is also turned on or off, since they are mechanically tied together. However, if one breaker trips correctly it will also trip the second breaker, again since the handles are mechanically tied together they can only move together.

Seems to be some confusion here, trying to figure it out.
 

dave*99

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2009
Messages
4,286
Location
Coastal NJ
I'm wondering if you are thinking about something other than what we call "handle ties". What the manufacturers list as a handle tie is a bar that connects together the handles of two adjacent breakers. If one breaker is manually turned on or off, the other breaker is also turned on or off, since they are mechanically tied together. However, if one breaker trips correctly it will also trip the second breaker, again since the handles are mechanically tied together they can only move together.

Seems to be some confusion here, trying to figure it out.

The statement in red is incorrect.
In this scenario, when one trips, the tripped handle WILL NOT force the untripped handle to move at all. So one circuit stays energized. A tripped breaker is in a different mechanical state than a turned off breaker. My statement applies to handle tied breakers, not breakers labeled common trip.
 
Last edited:
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

exranger06

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
1,686
Location
CT
There are a number of things manufactured and sold at the box stores that are not to code. For example, none of the meter boxes available in this area meet code. Maybe they meet code somewhere, but they are not NEC compliant.



I'm wondering if you are thinking about something other than what we call "handle ties". What the manufacturers list as a handle tie is a bar that connects together the handles of two adjacent breakers. If one breaker is manually turned on or off, the other breaker is also turned on or off, since they are mechanically tied together. However, if one breaker trips correctly it will also trip the second breaker, again since the handles are mechanically tied together they can only move together.

Seems to be some confusion here, trying to figure it out.
No, I'm not thinking about something else. Yes, you correctly described a handle tie. That's also exactly what I'M talking about.

If a breaker trips due to an overload, the handle does NOT necessarily move! A breaker can trip and shut off the power without the handle physically moving at all. Therefore, two single pole breakers that are handle tied can have ONE of the breakers trip while the other breaker stays energized. And like I said before, this is NOT dangerous and not a code violation! If the other breaker doesn't trip, then obviously there is no problem on that section of the circuit and the breaker doesn't NEED to trip.

If one of the breakers trips, you reset it by turning it off (flipping the tied-together handles off simultaneously) and turning it back on again.

The only time BOTH breakers will turn off at the same time is when someone manually flips the handle. And that is the only time you NEED both to turn off at the same time. The handle tie is there ONLY to ensure both parts of the circuit are turned off while someone is working on the circuit. It has NOTHING to do with shutting the whole circuit off in the event of a fault.
 
Last edited:

Dh3256

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
1,145
In this scenario, when one trips, the tripped handle WILL NOT force the untripped handle to move at all.

That must be something different than the clip on bars I have been using, they do force the untripped handle to move and both circuits de-energize.

A tripped breaker is in a different mechanical state than a turned off breaker.

Agreed, off is different than tripped, but it is the handle movement of the tripped breaker that causes the untripped breaker to turn off.
 

Dh3256

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
1,145
If a breaker trips due to an overload, the handle does NOT necessarily move!

I guess it could differ between brands or something, but a properly functioning breaker will move the handle when it trips. FWIW I did confirm this with the manufacturer.

A breaker can trip and shut off the power without the handle physically moving at all.

I've not had that experience with name brand breakers.

Therefore, two single pole breakers that are handle tied can have ONE of the breakers trip while the other breaker stays energized.

Again, I have not seen that, and since that situation would be dangerous it seems NEC would prohibit them if that were the case.
 

pattenp

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
10,175
Location
Virginia - USA
That seems to be either stated incorrectly or incorrect. The handle tie connects the breakers together so they both turn off if either one trips. A fault on one leg causes the other leg to turn off, due to the tie bar.
What I stated is correct. Two single pole breakers with a handle tie does not trip both breakers if a fault occurs only on one leg. The internal trip mechanism does not positively push the handle over with force to disconnect the other breaker. This is why there are common trip 2 pole breakers. And this why the NEC requires 2 pole common trip on line-to-line loads and not 2 single pole with a handle tie. I can't say every single pole breaker out there performs this way.
 
Last edited:

exranger06

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
1,686
Location
CT
I guess it could differ between brands or something, but a properly functioning breaker will move the handle when it trips. FWIW I did confirm this with the manufacturer.



I've not had that experience with name brand breakers.



Again, I have not seen that, and since that situation would be dangerous it seems NEC would prohibit them if that were the case.
Please explain how that situation is dangerous.
 

Dh3256

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
1,145
Two single pole breakers with a handle tie does not trip both breakers if a fault occurs only on one leg.

Not sure how reconcile this with my different experience and confirmation from a manufacturer. I guess it's possible some brands are not compliant at low trip currents or something like that.
 

Dh3256

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
1,145
Please explain how that situation is dangerous.

It provides an unexpectedly energized circuit which is hazardous and a sneak return path. As mentioned previously by another poster, that is why an AFCI or GFCI will trip in this situation, there is a current imbalance.
 

yeldogt

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
18,184
See my comments in red above.
Now, that only applies to "regular" breakers that do NOT have an AFCI or GFCI built in. If you're using an AFCI or GFCI breaker (or combo AFCI/GFCI breaker), then yes, you need to use a 2-pole breaker, because the AFCI/GFCI circuitry needs to compare the current coming out of the breaker to the neutral current coming back into the breaker. That's why, on an AFCI and/or GFCI breaker, you connect the neutral wire to the breaker, instead of directly to the neutral bar like on a regular breaker. You can't have current from other breakers getting mixed up in that. A regular breaker though, doesn't care about the neutral current. It only "sees" how much current is leaving through the hot leg. As long as that amount of current is below its rating, it's happy and it keeps the power on.

I believe the reason has to do with the Wiremold ... the two circuit Wiremold uses a shared neutral ... and i guess it's a requirement that both have to be tied together is a way that one tripping will turn off the other leg
 

Raisedonadeere

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 31, 2017
Messages
436
Location
Central KY
Those of you working through understanding shared neutral may be interested that 50 AMP RVs use shared neutral between the power source box where RV is plugged in and the electrical panel in the RV. I hadn't thought about it until one day when I was running on a 50 foot extension cord in addition to the RV cord that the air conditioner seemed to pick up speed when the electrical water heater turned on.

I wanted to understand that so I started looking in my RV electrical box to see how it was wired. Long story short the RV panel was splitting the two hot legs (240V between the two) into two 120V legs which supplied the various 120v circuit breakers in the panel. The neutrals from each 120v circuit were tied to the single neutral that went out to the power source through the cord.

The air conditioner was on one Line 1 and the water heater was on Line 2. The water heater current was cancelling the air conditioner current through that common neutral resulting in a 2-3v increase in net voltage across the air conditioner.

I probably would not ever have become aware of the common neutral effects if I had not been running that undersize extension cord to my RV one hot day.
 

yeldogt

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
18,184
Those of you working through understanding shared neutral may be interested that 50 AMP RVs use shared neutral between the power source box where RV is plugged in and the electrical panel in the RV. I hadn't thought about it until one day when I was running on a 50 foot extension cord in addition to the RV cord that the air conditioner seemed to pick up speed when the electrical water heater turned on.

I wanted to understand that so I started looking in my RV electrical box to see how it was wired. Long story short the RV panel was splitting the two hot legs (240V between the two) into two 120V legs which supplied the various 120v circuit breakers in the panel. The neutrals from each 120v circuit were tied to the single neutral that went out to the power source through the cord.

The air conditioner was on one Line 1 and the water heater was on Line 2. The water heater current was cancelling the air conditioner current through that common neutral resulting in a 2-3v increase in net voltage across the air conditioner.

I probably would not ever have become aware of the common neutral effects if I had not been running that undersize extension cord to my RV one hot day.

I guess it can cause some strange things .. and I can see how it would trow off some dimmers -- the way they have pass through. In a way .. typical feeds to panels are sharing a neutral .. No?

It gets strange when the common goes out on one leg
 

Bad Habit

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
2,013
Location
Chumstick WA
Not sure how reconcile this with my different experience and confirmation from a manufacturer. I guess it's possible some brands are not compliant at low trip currents or something like that.

When a breaker trips, the handle is released from the mechanism and is somewhat free floating. In order to reset it (and the breaker), you have to move it to the fully off position. The handle tie will require that the other breaker is also turned completely off in order to do that.
 

Raisedonadeere

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 31, 2017
Messages
436
Location
Central KY
I forgot to mention that the neutral and ground in the 50 amp RV are unbonded just as in our garage subpanels. You can measure the voltage drop in the neutral by measuring between the neutral and ground. With a balanced load it will be zero. If the load is unbalanced whatever voltage you measure there is subtracted from the voltage across your loads.

Isn't it interesting that the codes do not make us drive a ground rod wherever we plug in our RV's like I had to for the subpanel in my out buildings.
 

AntonLargiader

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
Messages
1,372
Location
Charlottesville, VA
Not sure how reconcile this with my different experience and confirmation from a manufacturer. I guess it's possible some brands are not compliant at low trip currents or something like that.

It's not a noncompliance thing. Independent trip is an established thing with double breakers; it's not an accident. Look in the Schneider catalog and you will see double breakers are openly stated to be common trip or independent trip.

I get your concern about a single trip leaving an energized neutral but that's by intent. Equipment is supposed to be manually de-energized before work, and that will disconnect both legs because of the handle tie. Until that happens, the "good" circuit is still hot and this is usually desirable.
 

exranger06

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
1,686
Location
CT
It provides an unexpectedly energized circuit which is hazardous and a sneak return path. As mentioned previously by another poster, that is why an AFCI or GFCI will trip in this situation, there is a current imbalance.

Dude, it wasn't "another poster" who brought up the current imbalance. I WAS THE ONE WHO SAID THAT! And that has NOTHING to do with a dangerous situation (or lack thereof) of using handle tied breakers!

Let's back up a little. Let's forget about shared neutrals for a moment. Let's picture a simple 120V circuit: 1 hot leg, 1 neutral, 1 ground, and 1 single-pole breaker. If you have a fault where the hot leg comes into direct contact with the neutral, there will be a ton of current going through the hot leg, and a ton of current going through the neutral. That's bad. But the circuit breaker will trip almost instantaneously and shut the power off. That's what a circuit breaker does; it's the breaker's whole reason for existing! And as soon as the breaker trips, *****!* there's no more dangerous situation! The power is off, no current is flowing, nobody cares that the hot leg is still contacting the neutral!

It is no different in a multi-wire branch circuit: One of the hot legs contacts the neutral, or a ground wire, the breaker for that particular hot leg trips. Problem solved. The breaker for the other hot leg does NOT need to get involved at all, because the other hot leg didn't come into contact with anything and it's still working fine. The neutral can keep working and continue to carry current, even if the first hot leg is still contacting it. The hot leg is de-energized, and is not connected to anything. There is nowhere for current to go down that path, so there is no "sneak return path" as you say.

Now, as for GFCI and current imbalances: It seems you don't fully understand how a GFCI works, or how a multi-wire branch circuit works, or both. But let me explain how each works, and you will see why GFCI breakers need to be 2-pole for a MWBC, and how it has nothing to do with using handle-tied single-pole breakers for non-GFCI/AFCI applications.

Even though MWBCs supply 120V, they are SIMILAR to 240V circuits. On a 240V circuit, you only need 2 hot legs to supply the 240V. You do not need a neutral wire at all. So, how does current return back to the panel? The current goes up one hot leg, and back down through the other hot leg to return to the panel. The current is constantly going back and forth, up and down, between the two hot legs.

Let’s picture an electric stove. It runs on 240V. However, it also needs a neutral because some parts also run on 120V, such as the light bulb inside the oven. Let’s say you turn the oven on, and 20A starts flowing through the heating elements. Since the heating elements are 240V, you have 20A flowing up one hot leg, and 20A flowing down the other hot leg. There is NO current flowing through the neutral; like I said, we don’t even need a neutral for 240V.
So we have:
Hot leg: 20 A
Other hot leg: 20 A
Neutral: 0 A
Then you open the oven door and the light inside turns on. Let’s say the light uses 1 A of current. So that 1A flows up one of the hot legs (doesn’t matter which one) and flows back down through the neutral. So now we have:
Hot leg: 21 A
Other hot leg: 20 A
Neutral: 1 A
The neutral is only there to carry the DIFFERENCE in current between the 2 hot legs. In the first scenario, we had no difference in current, therefore the neutral current was zero. In the 2nd scenario, we have a difference of 1A between the hot legs, so the neutral carries 1A.

Now, getting back to MWBCs: A MWBC has 2 hot legs and one neutral (see any similarities to the oven??). If both legs of the MWBC are carrying the exact same amount of current, there will be no current on the neutral. If you have 13A of current on one hot leg, and 7A of current on the other leg, the neutral will have 6A of current (13A – 7A = 6A – neutral carries the difference). If you shut off the 7A on the 2nd hot leg, (or if...*ahem*…the breaker trips) now the neutral current jumps up to 13A (13A – 0A = 13A). Again, not a problem.

Hopefully now you see how having different amounts of current on hot legs vs the neutral doesn’t matter.

Now let’s talk about GFCIs. A GFCI is there to prevent people from getting shocked/electrocuted. It does this by comparing the current leaving vs the current coming back. In a 120V circuit, the current on the hot leg should be exactly the same as the current on the neutral. So, if you have 10A on the hot leg and 8A on the neutral…wait, where did the other 2A go? They didn’t just magically disappear. The 2A is flowing down some alternate path it’s not supposed to go, like through someone’s body, electrocuting them for example. So if it sees a difference in current like that, it will trip. In the 240V oven example, we have 20A flowing down one hot leg, and the SAME 20A flowing down the other hot leg. Again, current flowing out is the same as current flowing in. When the 1A light bulb turns on, we have 21A flowing OUT one hot leg, and 20A flowing IN the other hot leg, PLUS 1A flowing IN via the neutral. So, we still have a total of 21A flowing OUT, and a total of 21A flowing IN.

In order for a GFCI to work properly, it needs to make sure the current going out is the same as what’s coming back in. Now look at the section I wrote above about how MWBCs work again, and ask yourself how the heck can a pair of SINGLE POLE GFCI breakers work if each breaker can only see ONE hot leg and the neutral? If one breaker sees 13A on the hot leg and only 6A on the neutral, as in the above example, how will it work? Answer: It can’t. That doesn’t mean that it’s unsafe for one hot leg to be carrying more current than the other, and the neutral carries the imbalance.

If you use a double pole GFCI breaker though, you connect both hot legs and the neutral to the breaker. Now the breaker can see that it has 13A going OUT one hot leg, and 7A plus 6A coming IN via the other hot leg and the neutral, respectively. So now the breaker sees 13A going out, and 13A coming in, so it works properly. THAT is the ONLY reason you need to use a double pole breaker if you’re using a GFCI breaker for MWBCs.

As for AFCIs, I’m not very familiar with the inner workings of them, so I won’t talk much about that, except that they are hooked up the exact same way as a GFCI breaker, where the neutral wire needs to be connected to the breaker. So again, the breaker needs to see how much current goes out vs what comes in.

Regular breakers (breakers that are NOT GFCI or AFCI) do not have a neutral wire connected to them. They do not know nor care what the neutral current is, and they don't know or care if the neutral current is more or less than the current on the hot leg. Therefore, you CAN use two single-pole breakers that are handle-tied for MWBCs!
 
Last edited:

exranger06

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
1,686
Location
CT
Those of you working through understanding shared neutral may be interested that 50 AMP RVs use shared neutral between the power source box where RV is plugged in and the electrical panel in the RV. I hadn't thought about it until one day when I was running on a 50 foot extension cord in addition to the RV cord that the air conditioner seemed to pick up speed when the electrical water heater turned on.

I wanted to understand that so I started looking in my RV electrical box to see how it was wired. Long story short the RV panel was splitting the two hot legs (240V between the two) into two 120V legs which supplied the various 120v circuit breakers in the panel. The neutrals from each 120v circuit were tied to the single neutral that went out to the power source through the cord.

The air conditioner was on one Line 1 and the water heater was on Line 2. The water heater current was cancelling the air conditioner current through that common neutral resulting in a 2-3v increase in net voltage across the air conditioner.

I probably would not ever have become aware of the common neutral effects if I had not been running that undersize extension cord to my RV one hot day.
Not only is the service to your RV basically one large MWBC, but the service to your whole house is also one big MWBC and works the same exact way.
 

pattenp

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
10,175
Location
Virginia - USA
Excerpt from Mike Holt - Slash-Ratings & Handle ties

“7.1.1.12 If a single-pole circuit breaker is rated at 120/240 V ac or 125/250 V
dc, see 6.1.5.3, two such circuit breakers shall be tested together in the intended
P a g e 4 o f 6 manner as a 2-pole independent-trip circuit breaker in the overload, endurance, interrupting, and dielectric voltage-withstand test described below. Two such
‘pairs’ of circuit breakers constitute a set.”

"The above introduces the term “Independent-trip” which operates such that any single
breaker in the pair of combined breakers may trip without causing the trip of the other breaker(s). This can be the result of applying an approved handle tie to two single pole breakers.
Handle ties have become more popular these days due to recent NEC changes. When two 1-Pole breakers are combined via a handle tie, they must both be slash-rated breakers. This ensures that proper testing has been performed on the “pair” of breakers for their application. Even if applied on only single phase circuits, as is the case of shared neutral applications, this “pair” of breakers may be called upon to interrupt a line-to-line fault, a condition for which they have not been tested if they are rated 120V only."
 
Last edited:

alfredeneuman

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2011
Messages
4,594
Location
Fullerton, CA
Not only is the service to your RV basically one large MWBC, but the service to your whole house is also one big MWBC and works the same exact way.
For the folks that consider them dangerous.

The power companies use multiwire circuits exclusively from the point of generation to the individual meter and panel.
All panels have a multiwire setup.

Does it just become dangerous at the branch circuit level or what?
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
It's only dangerous if both circuits are on the same yooke or maybe even same box. After the y it's not a problem, if the n is interuption before the y there is 120 in series .
 

Brand X

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
240
I saw a panel in a church recent was interesting

Seeing you in a Church would be even more interesting. Maybe double check the the Ground fault circuit, just in case there is a stray lighting bolt strike heading your way..:FIREdevil
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom