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Craftsman 19.2v C3 Fans

lafester

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Yeah, I keep thinking I should flip them but for some reason I hang on.
I spent quite a bit of time getting my set together (for little money) and I guess I just want to enjoy using it for awhile longer.

Honestly I never use the nextec stuff so I may start by selling that off.
 
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bds1984

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Yeah, I keep thinking I should flip them but for some reason I hang on.
I spent quite a bit of time getting my set together (for little money) and I guess I just want to enjoy using it for awhile longer.

Honestly I never use the nextec stuff so I may start by selling that off.

I am at the same point with my C3 collection. When the 20V sets came out, I bought them mostly for the curiosity factor; they were decent for the price, but lacked the variety of the C3 system. Somebody offered me what I paid for that system so down the road they went.

In a weird twist of fate, I have come into a bunch of C3 tools for pennies in the last two months to add to my collection. I now have the brushless drill kit, hammer drill, impact driver, 1/2 impact, two lights, radio, angle grinder, angle drill, reciprocating saw, vacuum, two 5.5" circular saws and a 6.5" circular saw, a few chargers, and 1.3, 2.0, 2-2.6s, and a 4.0 amp l-ion batteries as well as two ni-mh batteries from amazon that are pretty good. For me it is safe to say that my C3 system isn't going anywhere, anytime soon.
 

vette-kid

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Anyone able to offer a comparison between the heavy duty drill and the brushless? I've decided to go ahead and spend the money on a good drill since it my most used tool. I can get the brushless for around $100 and the HD for about $50. Is it worth the price hike?

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bds1984

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Which HD model are you asking about? I can give you a comparison of the brushless C3 to the hammer drill that put out 410 in/lb. Depending on which HD drill you are referring to, the brushless drill has up to 130 in/lb of torque more. I definitely notice the extra power in the brushless model compared to anything else in the C3 system but sometimes the footprint and lighter weight of the smaller drills is more desirable if one doesn't need the extra power at the time.
 

Bacon!

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Anyone able to offer a comparison between the heavy duty drill and the brushless? I've decided to go ahead and spend the money on a good drill since it my most used tool. I can get the brushless for around $100 and the HD for about $50. Is it worth the price hike?

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You're in a tough spot. I would sooner get this Ryobi 750 in-lb Brushless Hammer Drill with included 4Ah battery and charger for $80:

https://www.directtoolsoutlet.com/Products/Power-Tools/Drills%2C-Drivers-%26-More/Hammer-Drills/RYOBI-ONE%2B-18-Volt-Lithium-Ion-Battery-Brushless-Motor-Hammer-Drill-Kit/p/ZRP1813

It IS reconditioned (aka CPO) while some would suggest just buying new, but of the three choices at that price range, this would be my preference. This is another one of the perks of having Ryobi, that it is often easy to find bare tools or refurbs that are inexpensive. Once you have that battery and charger, you are ready to make the leap...
 
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vette-kid

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You're in a tough spot. I would sooner get this Ryobi 750 in-lb Brushless Hammer Drill with included 4Ah battery and charger for $80:

https://www.directtoolsoutlet.com/P...ry-Brushless-Motor-Hammer-Drill-Kit/p/ZRP1813

It IS reconditioned (aka CPO) while some would suggest just buying new, but of the three choices at that price range, this would be my preference. This is another one of the perks of having Ryobi, that it is often easy to find bare tools or refurbs that are inexpensive. Once you have that battery and charger, you are ready to make the leap...
Still talking C3 line, but thanks

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vette-kid

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Bacon!

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Still talking C3 line, but thanks

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I know. You're clinging to a platform even when it doesn't make any sense to do so. If you get a drill that's your most used tool (?) using another battery, it'll make the C3 batteries you have, last that much longer for the tools that use them. Seems like a win-win to me.

However, brushless isn't all it's cracked up to be. Usually a brushless tool fails earlier than a brushed would eat up the brushes (brushless tool lifespan is pretty much marketing nonsense and lies, the controller tends to fail before anything else would in either type), and brushless tends to have steps in RPM that make it decidedly inferior for precision work where you need linear torque limits. It isn't an issue if you have several tools for each purpose but if you want only one tool to do it all, the choice between brushed and brushless isn't at all so clear cut as choosing newer tech because it must be assumed to be better.

Brushless is the way forward but is still in its infancy. I would not own only one rotary type tool that was brushless, but it's a great advantage if you already have other tools to handle precision work.
 
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vette-kid

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Yeah, I get what your saying, and your not entirely wrong. The hard part is selling in a new system and enduring the change over period where you have two battery systems, two types of chargers laying around, double the batteries you have to lug around to a job, etc.

I understand that it's clinging to an obsolete system, but by switching to a new one one tool at a time you lose the advantage that a shared battery platform gives in the first place, or you throw the baby out with the bath water and replace all of them. Then you too the five in witch system will be supported long enough to be worth your while, or at least the time it takes to convert entirely over. Something I HATE about the cordless tool market for DIY users! Is an expensive proposition to go all at once, but going over a period of years is a gamble.

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Dh3256

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You're clinging to a platform even when it doesn't make any sense to do so.

I pretty much disagree with most of your opinions. After careful analysis and comparison and evaluation, I have made the logical choice to stay with the C3 system, it makes sense. There is little value in replacing the tools with less capable options for more money.

However, brushless isn't all it's cracked up to be. Usually a brushless tool fails earlier than a brushed would eat up the brushes

Have to disagree, the reduction in wearing mechanical parts is one primary reason brushless motors last so much longer than brushed motors.

If you are having controller failures, that is a bad design or more likely an unusual exception with a particular tool, most people and most tools will never see that, MTBFs are at least 200,000 hours for every brand.

brushless tends to have steps in RPM that make it decidedly inferior for precision work where you need linear torque limits.

To the contrary, another benefit of brushless motors is the control over the torque and speed curve, and the ability to make it truly linear. With a brushed motor, it's not possible to get a truly linear torque and speed curve.

Brushless is the way forward but is still in its infancy.

Again, brushless is a mature technology that is nearly 60 years old. It has become more viable for smaller motors in the last few decades due to improvements in controllers and electronics. In particular declining costs of IGBTs have made lower cost motors possible. Hard drives have been exclusively brushless for decades, for example. In other applications such as vehicle controls brushless has always been the preferred choice, since they are inherently safe and stop turning in the event of a fault, while brushless motors tend to overspeed when the motor or controller fails.

For homeowner and even much shop use of cordless tools, motor type won't make a difference for most people, and most people will never need to replace a brush even with a brushed motor.

Just the opinion of this engineer who has designed controllers for both brushed and brushless motors.
 

bds1984

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Yeah, I get what your saying, and your not entirely wrong. The hard part is selling in a new system and enduring the change over period where you have two battery systems, two types of chargers laying around, double the batteries you have to lug around to a job, etc.

I understand that it's clinging to an obsolete system, but by switching to a new one one tool at a time you lose the advantage that a shared battery platform gives in the first place, or you throw the baby out with the bath water and replace all of them. Then you too the five in witch system will be supported long enough to be worth your while, or at least the time it takes to convert entirely over. Something I HATE about the cordless tool market for DIY users! Is an expensive proposition to go all at once, but going over a period of years is a gamble.

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Given the choice between the brushless and the regular HD model, it would be the brushless. It has more power and has a nice feel in my hand like you've got a powerful, well built tool in your hand. I can't speak for the HD model, but the brushless model is made by Chervon.

Are you getting the bare drill or the kit?
 

Bacon!

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I pretty much disagree with most of your opinions. After careful analysis and comparison and evaluation, I have made the logical choice to stay with the C3 system, it makes sense. There is little value in replacing the tools with less capable options for more money.

C3 is a dead end road. You're going to switch, just a matter of when. I wrote about staying on that platform, NOT throwing out perfectly usable tools. Big difference. Plus, you're backwards suggesting the C3 tools are more capable, when today they are usually less capable at the same price points, with very few exceptions. Maybe you can get a deal on some clearance item and that's great, but it's still a dead end platform and can hardy hurt to have a backup plan and better performing tools in the process.

Have to disagree, the reduction in wearing mechanical parts is one primary reason brushless motors last so much longer than brushed motors.

If you are having controller failures, that is a bad design or more likely an unusual exception with a particular tool, most people and most tools will never see that, MTBFs are at least 200,000 hours for every brand.
If you want to say it's bad design, okay then it is bad design to build to tool motor price points and within the available space. The two primary differences are that brushless have lower heat density and no brushes. The brushes, until no longer made are relatively inexpensive and easy to replace.

The claim that brushless last longer is just some urban myth that laymen have been repeating to look knowledgeable when that is not how it is panning out if you simply accept that a brushed motor may need brush replacement eventually. Real world use, people are having controller failures. MTBF means nothing due to how it's calculated. It's a more appropriate measure of infant mortality.

Further, besides the brushes there isn't even anything more mechanical to wear out, quite the opposite that so many brushless now depend on a more fragile frame mounted bearing that is subject to frame flex and shock while it's near impossible to shock the (rear) bearing in a brushed motor that has its own internal housing.

Believe what you will, as you can choose either type, and brushless do still have two clear advantages, for battery runtime and especially in dirty environments where less heat production means less need to pull air through them for cooling so they don't get gunked up internally as quickly.

To the contrary, another benefit of brushless motors is the control over the torque and speed curve, and the ability to make it truly linear. With a brushed motor, it's not possible to get a truly linear torque and speed curve.
Linear is seldom relevant, rather modulating small changes is. Brushed motors do this better because they have a true linear controller while brushless work in steps. Regardless, it isn't very relevant since the user can observe and adjust, except that a brushless drill is inferior for delicate work due to this, is much harder to modulate very slow speeds.

Again, brushless is a mature technology that is nearly 60 years old. It has become more viable for smaller motors in the last few decades due to improvements in controllers and electronics.
Irrelevant. Cordless tools haven't have them for nearly this long and new designs keep causing new design challenges. The tech has improved over the years but is still maturing in cordless tools. To state something like "brushless motors existed" would be like stating "airplanes existed" and denying that they are quite different today than they were when first invented.

In particular declining costs of IGBTs have made lower cost motors possible. Hard drives have been exclusively brushless for decades, for example. In other applications such as vehicle controls brushless has always been the preferred choice, since they are inherently safe and stop turning in the event of a fault, while brushless motors tend to overspeed when the motor or controller fails.
No idea what kind of point you're trying to make here. There have been inexpensive brushless motors for decades before anyone was putting them in cordless consumer grade hand tools, but merely being brushless or not is only one variable in motor construction. The total design of both the motor and tool and integration between the two, means everything if you want it to survive in the hands of someone doing construction or repair work and all the bad treatment doing so.

You seem to have a disconnect between the stresses placed on cordless tools and are overgeneralizing. I too, would prefer a brushless motor in many other applications for the efficiency and speed control, but this is apples and oranges when applied to cordless hand tools that impose their own set of unique stresses.

I would even prefer brushless in many cordless hand tools, and do own some, but frankly it has not changed getting the work done much except paying more to change out the battery a little less often.

Take it on a tool by tool basis. The C3 brushless drill is ideal for some uses, but not others, isn't especially powerful and depends on a dying battery platform. I've rebuilt battery packs and don't care much to do it again, not when there are so many nicer, higher capacity Li-Ion tool options out there today.
 
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Farmall450

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Is anyone still buying used C3 stuff? I've been telling my brother to list his set...he doesn't seem to think that is worth the time, maybe for good reason :lol_hitti
 

Farmall450

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I pretty much disagree with most of your opinions. After careful analysis and comparison and evaluation, I have made the logical choice to stay with the C3 system, it makes sense. There is little value in replacing the tools with less capable options for more money.



Have to disagree, the reduction in wearing mechanical parts is one primary reason brushless motors last so much longer than brushed motors.

If you are having controller failures, that is a bad design or more likely an unusual exception with a particular tool, most people and most tools will never see that, MTBFs are at least 200,000 hours for every brand.



To the contrary, another benefit of brushless motors is the control over the torque and speed curve, and the ability to make it truly linear. With a brushed motor, it's not possible to get a truly linear torque and speed curve.



Again, brushless is a mature technology that is nearly 60 years old. It has become more viable for smaller motors in the last few decades due to improvements in controllers and electronics. In particular declining costs of IGBTs have made lower cost motors possible. Hard drives have been exclusively brushless for decades, for example. In other applications such as vehicle controls brushless has always been the preferred choice, since they are inherently safe and stop turning in the event of a fault, while brushless motors tend to overspeed when the motor or controller fails.

For homeowner and even much shop use of cordless tools, motor type won't make a difference for most people, and most people will never need to replace a brush even with a brushed motor.

Just the opinion of this engineer who has designed controllers for both brushed and brushless motors.

Completely correct. Hard to argue something that should come with wear items (brushes) will outlast its brushless counterpart. :thumbup:
 

lafester

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Is anyone still buying used C3 stuff? I've been telling my brother to list his set...he doesn't seem to think that is worth the time, maybe for good reason [emoji38]_hitti
Quite a few things are still selling well on eBay. The common drills and saws aren't worth much though. I think a lot of it is collecting at this point.

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Farmall450

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Quite a few things are still selling well on eBay. The common drills and saws aren't worth much though. I think a lot of it is collecting at this point.

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I'm unsure what he had minus drill, impact, and hand vacuum.

Another bygone era, funny how someone can be on a forum long enough to outlive a major tool line, etc
 

Dh3256

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You're going to switch, just a matter of when.

No plans to switch, ever, and no need to switch.


The claim that brushless last longer is just some urban myth

I have to disagree, the test data and MTBFs support the fact that brushless motors last longer. If you have seen tests or research that show otherwise, please share it.

Real world use, people are having controller failures. MTBF means nothing due to how it's calculated.

I have not heard about any controller failures, please share your sources and research and studies to support that conclusion.

MTBF and MTTFF are accepted industry metrics that everyone recognizes. Products with infant mortality are not shipped, they are tested out during burn in at the factory.

No idea what kind of point you're trying to make here.

Sorry thought that was clear, but to summarize:
brushless tools last longer, are more durable, are a mature and stable technology, and may well be a better choice for most people.
 

Dh3256

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Hard to argue something that should come with wear items (brushes) will outlast its brushless counterpart.

Yes, the absence of wear parts increases longevity.

A brushless motor is essentially a multi-phase AC motor, similar to a synchronous AC motor. The oscillation in the AC voltage provides the switch in voltage polarity needed to switch the poles to make the motor run.

The brushes are not needed, eliminating a primary failure point of the brushes. That's why both AC synchronous motors and brushless motors last so much longer than brushed motors.
 
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vette-kid

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Quite a few things are still selling well on eBay. The common drills and saws aren't worth much though. I think a lot of it is collecting at this point.

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Yeah, I really don't understand the collecting. I'll be keeping some of my tools that still work well, but I think I'm going to go ahead and sell off the common stuff. Or maybe it's just not worth selling other than the planer, which I'm keeping.

I think I'm making the switch to kobalt. Price point is good, batteries are cheap and user reviews are very positive.

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Farmall450

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Not at all - are you familiar with brushless motors? A brushless motor is essentially a multi-phase AC motor, similar to a synchronous AC motor. The oscillation in the AC voltage provides the switch in voltage polarity needed to switch the poles to make the motor run.

The brushes are not needed, eliminating a primary failure point of the brushes. That's why both AC synchronous motors and brushless motors last so much longer than brushed motors.

I think you fundamentally misunderstood my post...
 

Farmall450

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Yeah, I really don't understand the collecting. I'll be keeping some of my tools that still work well, but I think I'm going to go ahead and sell off the common stuff. Or maybe it's just not worth selling other than the planer, which I'm keeping.

I think I'm making the switch to kobalt. Price point is good, batteries are cheap and user reviews are very positive.

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Why move to another line that will be obsolete in a few years?

House brands outside of HD are not the way to go.
 

vette-kid

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Why move to another line that will be obsolete in a few years?



House brands outside of HD are not the way to go.
Open to other suggestions, but I've discounted DeWalt and the new Craftsman line for poor reviews. Porter Cable seems good, but limited tools in the line. Cost is a factor in the other systems. Kobalt is expanding, I don't see it going anywhere for a while. Either way is a bit of a gamble I suppose.

What's your suggestion for a good DIY line? Reasonable cost and quality with good tool availability/sustainability are primary concerns

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Farmall450

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Open to other suggestions, but I've discounted DeWalt and the new Craftsman line for poor reviews. Porter Cable seems good, but limited tools in the line. Cost is a factor in the other systems. Kobalt is expanding, I don't see it going anywhere for a while. Either way is a bit of a gamble I suppose.

What's your suggestion for a good DIY line? Reasonable cost and quality with good tool availability/sustainability are primary concerns

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If you've discounted DeWalt from bad reviews, you need to look somewhere else for reviews. It is well established that DeWalt and Milwaukee are the two premium commonplace brands, with slightly less common but still very good Makita making up a distant third.

For DIY: Ryobi. Cheap, and they've been supporting the line for 30 years. They also offer a lot of weird, but neat, tools -- for cheap. The new Craftsman line is quite good (I've built up a kit for my truck) as well as nicely priced; the higher end models are literally DeWalt (workshop blower, heat gun, brushless drill and impact (American made) with the rest being Porter Cable rebrands).

I guess we should specify which Craftsman: the line you see in Lowe's, Farm & Fleet, etc (V20) is good -- many of its tools are literally Porter Cable or DeWalt, and they're identical in pricing and market served, and made by the parent of DeWalt. I could see you discounting the Craftsman from Sears b/c it will be obsolete in a few short years.

I wouldn't stake much on Kobalt with lowe's having a serious stake in Craftsman; furthermore, just like your C3 when Lowe's contract runs up with their supplier (Chevron, same as AC Delco IIRC) they will be obsolete. Meanwhile, I can walk into any store and buy a DeWalt battery and charger for a 1990 18v drill. That's what I mean by obsolete: no further support after a relatively short time. :beer:
 

USAMatt

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I had most of the C3 line along with some Dewalt & Bosch stuff. I gave away or sold most of the C3 stuff when I switched over to the new V20 line. I have most all of the V20 tools and for the most part, they are on par with the C3 line. I hated the V20 impact wrench (too big and heavy) though for not being a High Torque model. If you were content with C3, you'd be content with V20. My biggest gripe was most everything now is brushless and more compact and V20 was kind of stuck in the past save for the USA drill/impact driver.

I was expecting a higher end brushless expansion and just didn't see it happening. Using Milwaukee impacts at work and looking at their saws, I was on the fence as to wait and see if V20 would step it up or if it was time to jump ship over to Milwaukee. However, Craftsman just released more of what I was waiting for. A higher end circular saw and a mid torque impact wrench. Both brushless. So perhaps investing into V20 will be worth the wait after all? You may want to look into it. Craftsman isn't going anywhere so I wouldn't be concerned about that aspect of it. And if they're getting serious now, it may be a great choice given they also have OPE tools.

I'll also second Farmall450's comment, V20 is (for right now) a blend of higher end Dewalt tools and literally all of the Porter Cable tools. I wouldn't bother with PC. If you liked those tools they're available in V20. And Craftsman & Dewalt have far more offerings.
 
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Farmall450

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I had most of the C3 line along with some Dewalt & Bosch stuff. I gave away or sold most of the C3 stuff when I switched over to the new V20 line. I have most all of the V20 tools and for the most part, they are on par with the C3 line. I hated the V20 impact wrench (too big and heavy) though. If you were content with C3, you'd be content with V20. My biggest gripe was most everything now is brushless and more compact and V20 was kind of stuck in the past save for the USA drill/impact driver.

I was expecting a higher end brushless expansion and just didn't see it happening. Using Milwaukee impacts at work and looking at their saws, I was on the fence as to wait and see if V20 would step it up or if it was time to jump ship over to Milwaukee. However, Craftsman just released more of what I was waiting for. A higher end circular saw and a mid torque impact wrench. Both brushless. So perhaps investing into V20 will be worth the wait after all? You may want to look into it. Craftsman isn't going anywhere so I wouldn't be concerned about that aspect of it. And if they're getting serious now, it may be a great choice given they also have OPE tools.

I've been impressed with the V20 sawzall and 1/2 impact for how affordable they are. Haven't used my 1/2" hammer drill much, but it got the job done on some plate. Only have used the grinder a few times, they definitely changed it internally from the similar looking DeWalt. The premium drill/impact which are US made appear to be identically DeWalt top of the line tools; the heat gun and work shop blower are certainly red DeWalt. :thumbup:
 

USAMatt

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I've been impressed with the V20 sawzall and 1/2 impact for how affordable they are
.

Oh, the V20 sawzall is great. If it were brushless it would be even better. I used ours to cut tree branches down this past summer and the only thing that would have made it better is if the batteries lasted longer. This is the same deal with the grinder. Not being brushless, they both eat batteries too fast. The sawzall though I consider a compact. And for that aspect of it, it's my favorite compact by far. The ergonomics of it is perfect for my hands. The V20 1/2 inch impact I didn't like because it really didn't have any more power than my C3 and my C3 was lighter and more compact. The V20 one was the size and weight of a Milwaukee High Torque with nowhere near the power. I actually kept my C3 to use at home. However, the new V20 Mid Torque will remedy that. My hope is they will also have a High Torque because I really need both. Dewalt has the USA one so I see no reason why it won't be available as a Craftsman. A Stubby 1/2 would be nice too.

And I agree, the USA drill and impact driver are nice. The only thing they need to fix is they need a beefier forward/reverse switch. I've had to take a few tools (2 impact drivers and 1 3/8's impact wrench) back for exchange because of bad switches. Looking at the picture of the Mid Torque impact wrench, it appears to have a beefier forward/reverse switch. I hope they do that on everything.
 
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Farmall450

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The ergonomics of the compact sawzall are quite good, and it still has a decent length of stroke unlike other compacts. Only the domestically made DeWalt beats it, IMO. Heck, they even gave you guys the cordless tile saw -- formerly PC -- which they haven't given DeWalt (and the nice DeWalt 7-1/4 sliding cordless mitersaw).
 

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coleman10

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However, Craftsman just released more of what I was waiting for. A higher end circular saw and a mid torque impact wrench. Both brushless.


Perhaps we should start a Craftsman V20 thread instead of sending this one off on a tangent.

Got a link for that brushless saw? Can’t find it online.

Wish they’d come out with a cordless glue gun. That would really come in handy for me. I’d buy two.

I have a number of the tools and am happy with the system so far. Love the size and performance of the brushless drill and driver.
 

Robinson1

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Open to other suggestions, but I've discounted DeWalt and the new Craftsman line for poor reviews. Porter Cable seems good, but limited tools in the line. Cost is a factor in the other systems. Kobalt is expanding, I don't see it going anywhere for a while. Either way is a bit of a gamble I suppose.

What's your suggestion for a good DIY line? Reasonable cost and quality with good tool availability/sustainability are primary concerns

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Who are you getting reviews from? Dewalt is THE professional brand choice in my area. It's actually odd to see anything else on a service truck or jobsite.

I've been using Dewalt since 14.4v nicad was top of the line.

The current line of 20v XR brushless are among the best on the market.
 

Farmall450

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Who are you getting reviews from? Dewalt is THE professional brand choice in my area. It's actually odd to see anything else on a service truck or jobsite.

I've been using Dewalt since 14.4v nicad was top of the line.

The current line of 20v XR brushless are among the best on the market.

That's what I want to know.
 

USAMatt

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Perhaps we should start a Craftsman V20 thread instead of sending this one off on a tangent.

Got a link for that brushless saw? Can’t find it online.

Wish they’d come out with a cordless glue gun. That would really come in handy for me. I’d buy two.

I have a number of the tools and am happy with the system so far. Love the size and performance of the brushless drill and driver.


The saw was listed on Lowe's website. Model #CMCS550B. I agree, a glue gun would be great!
 
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coleman10

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Dh3256

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Mar 19, 2018
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Who are you getting reviews from? Dewalt is THE professional brand choice in my area.

May be a local thing, around here DeWalt is not common.

In some cases, DeWalt is literally B&D tools in yellow cases. Tools of the Trade is one journal that has tested DeWalt with disappointing results.
 

Farmall450

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Marengo, Illinois
May be a local thing, around here DeWalt is not common.

In some cases, DeWalt is literally B&D tools in yellow cases. Tools of the Trade is one journal that has tested DeWalt with disappointing results.

I cannot think of one DeWalt which is a B&D in yellow. Actually, if there was one it would have to be corded as their electronics are fundamentally different.

Again, you need a new news source. Try perhaps the national scale, if whatever micro-environment you're in does in fact think that :beer:
 

Farmall450

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While I don't watch Vince videos, yes, the US impact and drill are DeWalts in finish and function. Likely different circuitry yet, as I believe Craftsman still has the safety built into the battery (like PC, B&D) whereas DeWalt's is tool-based.
 
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