I have an opportunity to pick up a Scotchman FI-51 ironworker at a decent price. Only issue is it's 230 volt 3-phase, with a 5 hp motor. I only have single phase power in my shop, and am not very knowledgeable about rotary phase converters, VFD, etc. Was thinking about just purchasing a single phase 5 hp motor to swap out. At the time it was manufactured, they were also available with a single phase 5 hp motor. Speaking with Scotchman back in South Dakota, you can buy most any part for this machine from them, except the single phase motor, so I'd have to source one from elsewhere. Scotchman guy said the overloads and contacts wouldn't need to be changed, and the transformer would just be re-wired to single phase. I assume any quality 5 hp single phase motor would work, as long as mounts, shaft size, and rpm all matched up?
Scotchman FI-51 ironworker and 3phase to 1phase?
- Thread starter schurtjl
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dr_clyde
Well-known member
You should be fine, all the motor is doing is driving a hydraulic pump. Just match everything you can, frame style, RPM and HP being the most important.
matt_i
Well-known member
Agree with the Doc, there are techniques for using the 3 phase controls on single phase.
Easiest is to hook your incoming power to L1-L2.
Then loop the T2 to L3.
And wire your motor to T1 - T3.
This way all of the overloads and circuit breakers function as before.
If there were to be a control transformer, for pushbuttons and possibly a work light, make sure it takes its primary side feed from L1, L2.
If this is confusing then I can diagram it or post pics of the controls and we can work thru it
Easiest is to hook your incoming power to L1-L2.
Then loop the T2 to L3.
And wire your motor to T1 - T3.
This way all of the overloads and circuit breakers function as before.
If there were to be a control transformer, for pushbuttons and possibly a work light, make sure it takes its primary side feed from L1, L2.
If this is confusing then I can diagram it or post pics of the controls and we can work thru it
I have the Ironworker in my possession. Trying to decide if I should go the VFD route or swap to a single phase motor. I spoke with an engineer at Galco, and they recommended the Yaskawa V1000 series VFD. CIMR-VUBA0018FAA. $647. 1 phase input, and 3 phase output, rated at 5 hp and 17.5 amps. The Leeson 3 phase motor on the ironworker shows full load amps at 13.4. There's room inside the enclosure to mount the VFD. I have much to learn, but it appears that the VFD would be between the control panel and the motor.
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The other option is Grainger carries a single phase Dayton 5 hp general purpose motor that matches the dimensions, rpm, shaft size, mounts, etc of the existing motor. That would run me $463, so a couple hundred cheaper than the VFD.
matt_i
Well-known member
I think I'd go with the single phase motor. Will be easier and less costly.
The VFD involves programming it (couple of parameters to identify the way you want to stop-start and the direction of rotation) and you have to convert the wiring of the start stop controls to be a part of the low voltage DC circuitry rather than fairly simple AC motor controls.
Of importance, the motor shaft has to spin the same direction. So on your new motor you want to be solid that you can reverse the direction of rotation. Any 3 phase motor is reversible just by wiring choice. The reason is that the hydraulic pump *must* spin in the direction provided by its OEM. There should be an arrow marked somewhere to give you reference. The Dayton motor should confirm by instructions on the nameplate (or possibly manual) how to wire it for the two different directions. With the VFD you can select the direction by choice of power-side wiring OR a parameter which is changed to reverse the phasing internally.
The VFD involves programming it (couple of parameters to identify the way you want to stop-start and the direction of rotation) and you have to convert the wiring of the start stop controls to be a part of the low voltage DC circuitry rather than fairly simple AC motor controls.
Of importance, the motor shaft has to spin the same direction. So on your new motor you want to be solid that you can reverse the direction of rotation. Any 3 phase motor is reversible just by wiring choice. The reason is that the hydraulic pump *must* spin in the direction provided by its OEM. There should be an arrow marked somewhere to give you reference. The Dayton motor should confirm by instructions on the nameplate (or possibly manual) how to wire it for the two different directions. With the VFD you can select the direction by choice of power-side wiring OR a parameter which is changed to reverse the phasing internally.
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I would do this ^^^^ I have three phase in the shop but my used Pendinghaus came with a static converter and I used it rather than running a new electrical line from the panel.
I made my baby Mubea mobile and with the use of a static converter I can use it ANYWHERE in my shop by plugging it in any 50 amp welder plug.
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TTMotorsports
Well-known member
I have an Edward's 55 ton ironworker and use a cheap $100 rotary converter to get 3 phase in my shop.
I know nothing about static converters, I’ll have to research that. They’ll run off my 230 volt 50 amp welder outlets, and convert to three phase power to run a 5 hp motor?
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Correct. That’s what I did in the above pic. The Pendinghaus has a 5 HP 3 phase motor. Runs through the static converter on 230V single phase.
There is a certain percentage of power loss with this system. My IW seems to punch/ shear to capacity though.
The previous owner used it for years with the converter.
tool_scrounge
Well-known member
Static converters are cheap and easy, but you only get 2/3 the rated horsepower out of the motor at best.
mtarranttx
New member
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- Apr 1, 2016
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I have represented Scotchman in Texas for the last 25 years, My 2 cents, I would change the motor.
Make sure that you line up the coupling when you do or it will eat up the rubber piece in the middle.
The FI51 is a great machine. Customer service will be happy to help you with any questions.
Make sure that you line up the coupling when you do or it will eat up the rubber piece in the middle.
The FI51 is a great machine. Customer service will be happy to help you with any questions.
seber
Well-known member
Static converters work OK for short duration operations, but as stated previously, you only get 2/3 of the rated power. In addition, the motor will run hot. OK in the short run, but if you run it for extended periods, you shorten the life of the motor.
Agreed. The static converter IWs in my retirement hobby shop are never run for any long duration. They are run on single phase power only for the fact it is convenient. If I ever feel the need I will simply hook them up to the three phase.
jar944
Well-known member
Just get a vfd. They are dead simple and cheaper than a new single phase motor
matt_i
Well-known member
Man that Mubea is super cute...what tonnage?
I'm guessing the Scotch Man is 51 tons?
I think it would be bad to stall the body mid-cut due to low HP...seems like it could cause a jam...
I'm guessing the Scotch Man is 51 tons?
I think it would be bad to stall the body mid-cut due to low HP...seems like it could cause a jam...
The new single phase motor is cheaper than the VFD by about 200 bucks (motor $400-463 vs VFD at $647). Not real interested in decreasing the rated hp, so that eliminates the static converter. Yes, the Scotchman is 51 tons.
dutchgray
Well-known member
Changing the motor to a single phase one will be the way to go, you don't need any of the additional features a vfd can provide, they are quite expensive and would require altering the controls.
A single phase motor will be the most reliable option long term as well.
A single phase motor will be the most reliable option long term as well.
jar944
Well-known member
A name brand fuji vfd to run a 12fla motor is about $240.
What is the data plate fla on the motor?
Fuji on a 5hp DMD jointer
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matt_i
Well-known member
Be wary that not every VFD is capable of full output with a single phase input.
From what I have seen, at low HP values its a non issue, but when one gets to 5hp there are ships on both sides of the canal.
One has to consult the manufacturer's literature to figure this out with certainty.
It would be disappointing to spend the coin and find out that the VFD is incapable of delivering full HP due to its current limitations on single phase.
TRWham
Well-known member
Agree with the Doc, there are techniques for using the 3 phase controls on single phase.
Easiest is to hook your incoming power to L1-L2.
Then loop the T2 to L3.
And wire your motor to T1 - T3.
This way all of the overloads and circuit breakers function as before.
If there were to be a control transformer, for pushbuttons and possibly a work light, make sure it takes its primary side feed from L1, L2.
If this is confusing then I can diagram it or post pics of the controls and we can work thru it
Except that a single phase motor will pull 1.73 times the current of a 3 phase for the same horsepower. If the overloads were not way oversize to start, then they may trip on the new motor.
jar944
Well-known member
Fuji has single phase input vfd's up to 12 amps ouput
They also provide the correct derated output for their 3ph input vfds (which are also rated for single phase input)
View media item 101448
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fnieto
Well-known member
I have the same ironworker and luv it! It's been a work horse over the years and has made me $$. I would recommend building a RPC. I have a 7.5HP RPC that runs nine machines. I do employ two VFD's for custom control but even these are 3ph in/out.
One RPC and solve your power dilemma and run future machines you might acquire.
Your twin.
A few of nine machines that run flawlessly on a single RPC. Yes I can run more than one at a time. Not shown are two milling machines, lathe, profile roller and a 5 ton shaw box on a gantry crane. The RPC supplies power to a transformer that then runs the crane and profile roller as these two items require 440Vac 3ph.
The 7.5 hp system is ultra quiet and provides balanced power. BTW, that idler motor has been in RPC service since 2001. I pulled it from my smaller shop when I built my new shop. It's mounted on vibration isolators and just purrs.
You might reconsider your options.
Paco
One RPC and solve your power dilemma and run future machines you might acquire.
Your twin.
A few of nine machines that run flawlessly on a single RPC. Yes I can run more than one at a time. Not shown are two milling machines, lathe, profile roller and a 5 ton shaw box on a gantry crane. The RPC supplies power to a transformer that then runs the crane and profile roller as these two items require 440Vac 3ph.
The 7.5 hp system is ultra quiet and provides balanced power. BTW, that idler motor has been in RPC service since 2001. I pulled it from my smaller shop when I built my new shop. It's mounted on vibration isolators and just purrs.
You might reconsider your options.
Paco
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matt_i
Well-known member
Fair point and you're right. If you're lucky its an adjustment with a screwdriver. If not I'd just jump out the NC contact. There's minimal danger of phase loss adversely affecting a single phase motor other than it just won't do anything.
jar944
Well-known member
That fuji will output 150% of the rated amps (18a) for 1.5 minutes out of every 10 minutes.