Norther Michigan Garage Build

[ngiovas]

I previously posted a question asking what people would do differently if they were to build their garage/barn again (and what they would do again). I took many of those ideas to come up with a basic garage design, but now it is time to finalize the details so I can begin construction soon.

This pole barn will be built on a 40-acre property in northern Michigan. It will be used for vehicle and equipment storage (cars, tractor, ATVs, etc.) as well as maintenance (I will eventually install a vehicle lift).

To maintain my budget, I plan to build the shell and the concrete floor as the first phase. I will then do insulation and electrical after the barn is complete.

Size - I would like to build the shell of the barn as large as possible upfront while maintaining a reasonable budget. My dream barn was 60x80 with 16-foot ceilings, but after getting several quotes, I realized, that this just wasn't realistic. Because of this, I have decided to go with a 40x60x16 barn. This seems to be the sweet spot for me. My thought was that this would give me a nice size core garage space. I could then add a lean to on either side down the road to gain additional space. I don't know if this is realistic/doable, but I was thinking if I could do a 20' wide lean to down the length of the building, I could add additional space. On one side I could add rooms for woodworking, metalworking, a bathroom, etc. The lean to on the opposite side would likely just have a gravel floor and be used for trailer storage. Thoughts on these dimensions? Is 20 feet wide realistic with a 16 foot ceiling height on the core garage?

Materials - Hopefully I don't start a huge debate, but I am looking for recommendations on materials. Is 29 gauge steel fine for a residential barn siding? Laminated posts vs pressure treated? Setting the poles in the ground vs on the concrete columns?

Doors - I didn't want to put doors on the sides since I hope to add the lean tos in the future. I was planning to have a 12x12 overhead door on one end and a 36" man door on one side (near the end with the overhead door). Does it seem crazy to only have one large door? How hard is it to add a second door at the opposite end in the future?

floors - Is 4" concrete fine for most lift applications? Is there any reason to consider 5" concrete? I plan to run tubing for radiant floor heating under the concrete even if I don't hook it up until later. I am also looking for advice on drain size, type and placement.

What else am I not considering that I need to get right during the design phase?

Hopefully, I will be documenting the design and build in this thread as I go.

thanks in advance,

Nick

 

[finn]

Make the door 14’ high. Many fifth wheels are almost 13’6”, the legal limit.

I would also go a little wider with the door. I have a 10’ and a 12’. The 10 is really too narrow, while the 12’ is ok, but wider gives you some freedom to move cars in and out without moving them out of the way. Even 14’ would help..

Carefully consider the drawbacks of in floor heat in such a large building in northern Michigan. You will be pretty much committing to keeping it heated all winter wether you use it daily or not. That won’t be cheap, no matter what th internet in floor commandos say.

4” is fine, although many, usually with no experience with a 4” slab will say you absolutely need more.

 

[matt_i]

Just curious why you are set on 16' height....mezzanine space or you want to back a semi-truck in? I know you mentioned radiant but if you ever defaulted back to heating air, that is a lot of "cubic volume" to heat. Also consumes building materials for posts & sidewalls.

The perma-columns seem to be the best setup for preserving posts, however it adds to the costs. You'd be well to verify stamps/tags on UC4C rated posts if going direct-to-soil.

With a large post frame you also have to think about ceiling as the trusses could be 8ft apart (guessing, haven't seen plans) but it will require extra materials, work, and have the proper bottom chord rating to strap the ceiling perpendicular to be able to sheet.

Relative to the additional overhead door, simply frame as if the door was going in, you can always put wood thru the door opening to support the panels, but if you get to that point, the structure is already there & set with minimal guesswork.

 

[kaehlin]

With your purpose as vehicle storage and eventually maintenance - I think you would do better with at least one more door. Think about how difficult it will be to move anything in the back - have to move anything in between out of the way, or leave a passage down the middle.

 

[sberry]

Go 50 wide and one door can work. Got a neighbor just did one like that, put door to one side, not in the middle. 12 minimum door width, 14 is better. I will get a pic, the layout is good, . I have more doors but in the winter could do it thru 1 easy. 1 in the right spot is worth 2 poorly placed and will find yourself using 1 90%.

 

[sberry]

I had 3 doors designed in front of my storage, 1 in the rear, I use 1, wouldn't have needed the rest.
I sheeted over i, had 2, used 1 in the rear and didn't even hook the front one up, don't even have one in the center. It's really storage and parking lot.

 

[sberry]

60x80 is good , 40x60 is not bad but 50 or 56 has so much more elbow room and allows turning in and out. Smaller and it needs 2 doors. Cost a little more for extra space but saves on doors and leaves so much more room along the walls which is really where it's at.
Where in Northern Mi?

 

[ngiovas]

Make the door 14’ high. Many fifth wheels are almost 13’6”, the legal limit.

I would also go a little wider with the door. I have a 10’ and a 12’. The 10 is really too narrow, while the 12’ is ok, but wider gives you some freedom to move cars in and out without moving them out of the way. Even 14’ would help..

Carefully consider the drawbacks of in floor heat in such a large building in northern Michigan. You will be pretty much committing to keeping it heated all winter wether you use it daily or not. That won’t be cheap, no matter what th internet in floor commandos say.

4” is fine, although many, usually with no experience with a 4” slab will say you absolutely need more.

I'm curious as to why I am committing to heating it all winter? The property is 2 1/2 hours from my primary residence and I won't spend much time up their in the winter. Probably once every 6-8 weeks from mid November to February.

I am leaning towards the 4" concrete. I haven't found any solid information that leads me to believe I need anything thicker.

 

[ngiovas]

Just curious why you are set on 16' height....mezzanine space or you want to back a semi-truck in? I know you mentioned radiant but if you ever defaulted back to heating air, that is a lot of "cubic volume" to heat. Also consumes building materials for posts & sidewalls.

The perma-columns seem to be the best setup for preserving posts, however it adds to the costs. You'd be well to verify stamps/tags on UC4C rated posts if going direct-to-soil.

With a large post frame you also have to think about ceiling as the trusses could be 8ft apart (guessing, haven't seen plans) but it will require extra materials, work, and have the proper bottom chord rating to strap the ceiling perpendicular to be able to sheet.

Relative to the additional overhead door, simply frame as if the door was going in, you can always put wood thru the door opening to support the panels, but if you get to that point, the structure is already there & set with minimal guesswork.

I am looking at 16' high ceilings so that I have the option of adding a mezzanine for storage. The additional height didn't add a huge amount of cost.

Good point on the trusses. I will make sure to ask the builder about this. I will definitely be adding panels to finish the ceiling - hopefully sooner than later.

 

[ngiovas]

With your purpose as vehicle storage and eventually maintenance - I think you would do better with at least one more door. Think about how difficult it will be to move anything in the back - have to move anything in between out of the way, or leave a passage down the middle.

Are you thinking a door on each end, or two doors on the same end, but closer to each side? I have thought about a door at each end. I am trying to avoid putting doors on the sides so that I have the option of adding a lean to in the future.

 

[ngiovas]

Go 50 wide and one door can work. Got a neighbor just did one like that, put door to one side, not in the middle. 12 minimum door width, 14 is better. I will get a pic, the layout is good, . I have more doors but in the winter could do it thru 1 easy. 1 in the right spot is worth 2 poorly placed and will find yourself using 1 90%.

Thanks sberry. What are the dimensions of your shop? I would like to go 50 wide, but the more I add, the more the cost keeps creeping up. I have thought about asking the builder to price it a little wider, possibly a few feet longer.

I have 40 acres in Kalkaska. I have been wanting to build a barn/shop for years. It looks like it will finally happen, but I have to watch the budget.

 

[ConCretin]

floors - Is 4" concrete fine for most lift applications? Is there any reason to consider 5" concrete? I plan to run tubing for radiant floor heating under the concrete even if I don't hook it up until later. I am also looking for advice on drain size, type and placement.

A four inch slab is adequate for most uses including many lifts but I’d thicken the floor to 5 or even 6” in the area where you intend to install one. This will ensure you don’t end up with a thin spot from a high spot in the base or low spot in the concrete. Tolerances can be 1/4” or more and could easily result in less than 4” right where you need it.

With regard to floor drains, I like to place the drain under each parking area and pitch the floor slightly larger than the vehicle footprint. The water disappears under the vehicle and the area around the vehicle is flat. If you set the drain 1 1/2” low and pitch the area in a 10x20 area, you’ll have about 1/4 per foot in the short direction and 1/8” the long way. Don’t forget to pitch the sub base the same way.

Give my Guide to Floor Slabs in the link below a read for some additional thoughts. Good luck with your build.

 

[sberry]

Snow on the sides too. I wired one 56x60 a while back, 1 door. It is nice. He doesn't have a back, the property didn't really work for it. My shop is 80x80. I have a rear door too. I use it some, wouldn't be a real deal breaker not to have it but,,, I am a rigger from hell and do something different on most days. I have used the loading dock door about once but have a paint fan in it. I use the dock on the outside a quite a bit.
The storage is 60x100x20 lean to, if I was to do it again might go 75 wide and 25 lean to.
For more hobby type shop, general maintenance I might downsize, 60x60 which would heat easier and save some walking. I had thought 60 wide and 20 lean to put paint booth in to and so glad I didn't do that, this really fits me well. Only reason I would wanted 100 long was more running wall space would have let me do some machine tools but in the end its good, if I was going to put fab machines would do addition out the back.
I worked on the welded wire plant in Kalkaska and the Amaco gas comp plant too.

 

[finn]

I'm curious as to why I am committing to heating it all winter? The property is 2 1/2 hours from my primary residence and I won't spend much time up their in the winter. Probably once every 6-8 weeks from mid November to February.

I am leaning towards the 4" concrete. I haven't found any solid information that leads me to believe I need anything thicker.

I suppose you could add antifreeze to the system and shut it down when you aren’t there for several weeks at a time, but then a high efficiency condensing boiler isn’t the best, because of issues with the condensate freezing. A building that large costs a lot to heat. If you shut the system down and want to heat it for the weekend, it will probably take two days to bring the slab to temperature, and another day to bring the space temperature up. Forced air is more flexible for intermittent use.

My shop is a little smaller and farther north than your plan, ie 48’x75’, with the same 16’ ceilings. We’re gone (south) for the winter, so the temp is set to about 42 degrees, and I used 324 gallons of propane so far this season, though the the end of February, with a good six weeks of winter remaining. I guess that’s not bad, considering I pre-bought at $1.39 / gallon, but remember , it was over $4.00 / gallon a few years ago.

On the other hand, without the boiler, or a condensing furnace, I could have shut off the heat completely, had I been willing to drain the pipes and winterize the toilet and drains.

 

[sberry]

In the summer I work pout the side door a quite a bit and it opens up towards the other buildings. Stays open quite a bit. The one door in the front is 16 wide. I did use the rear once this winter as I had a long job in paint and while I wrangled it in the front it was an experience and when I finished I pulled on thru. I need an opener on it, as little as I use its not all much of a problem, the walk door is used out to a walkin cooler. As for heat, I agree, fully occupied the comfort of floor is great, wish I had it.
I spent a lot at the time and was all I could do. I moved in and worked, took me a couple years to get it rigged, took longer to really get the ergonomics right, I should have bought a few more things quicker but the layout is better especially since a little tailoring and a couple drawbacks. I had a great stove and I fixed some stuff prior to an inspection and left my old stove in, I should have at least rehab it they might have let it slide but it looked bad. I miss it, I have a listed pos that works but I really cant get the heat rise I could. I have gas back up infared. If I knew where a few things would end up zone floor water would be most excellent but barring that overhead infared.
I would 2 stage heat. Some extra space doesn't hurt so much and if a guy wants to melt can turn it up. 2 units in the main and divide off a corner in the front end,, note where my front walk door is,,,I should have windows there but,, if I was gonna drain it would put a couple hydrants in or run overhead, or drain in a sump too, could do that easy and put the utilities in a cozy spot.
Put the well underground even, could charge the water easy, could low level heat, toss a couple electric in as backup, back up all the water to a utility room , cut holes in the back of the cabinets , heat above freezing, food, water, paint, bathroom and given modern **** turn it up from your phone.

 

[sberry]

Look at pic 2 above. In this building I could really do 90% of the work I do with 1 door. The second one on the side ,,,, in this case works for labor savings but would want the door that is in front of the white truck. The "drive in this case is off center some. If I wanted to fab and paint and was going smaller, 60 wide building You could make the turn in a 60 building. would simply have the door to the side in the right,,, this could be reversed, I would enter and turn left with auto hoist. A floor drain along that one side,fan in the back wall and a roll up curtain, could wash, store, paint, thaw out wet cars.

 

[sberry]

I am having trouble with a pic or 2, I should have some sketches for a couple size buildings with the mostest features in the given space. This layout can go down to 40 wide but depends on 60 long. 50 wide makes it even better and 60 wouldn't be a waste.
There are so many fixed cost to a building that some extra materials isn't that much more in the grand scheme. You can park in front of the door with this,,, the parking spot is really part of the driveway. To pull in or turn in if a guy is using that space as parking can move it to get other things in. Its not a jiffy lube. I drive thru the building to the hoist.
In my case in pic 4 above the welding equipment is backed up to the wall at the electric service and I can work outside on the apron with leads or pull in or pull in and turn left. In the winter I move in to the welding bay from the other big door, don't even plow the side. I can if I am busy but can really do it thru the front.

 

[sberry]

You could make a lot more economical building than mine and I would too under different circumstances. I am a farmer and a career welder mechanic and do some paint work. I heat the main at 45 and 50, I park indoors in some really nasty weather, live on brutal back roads.
I agree with Finn about the continuous heat. I went a long way around saying I would divide and conquer that and might come up with some partial low level.

 

[sberry]

Ok.a sketch. The 2 dots on the left the hoist. Could put it in the far corner.

 

[ngiovas]

OK, I went ahead and asked the builder to price the building at 50' wide. I also asked him for lean-to pricing just to see what that would cost. We will see what he comes back with.

 

[Showkey]

There many prior posts on managing condensation, rust, humidity and dripping is metal building. Metal building can have their own “indoor weather systems”.

The other recent post on eves or overhangs ......short or no overhang make for water intrusion issues and snow damage as it slides off the roof. Free research using forum search function.

 

[NUTTSGT]

If I were to build a pole bldg that size, I would use laminated columns set on..... doggone I forget what they are called at the moment. Go to YouTube and watch a couple of videos from RR Buildings. Kyle does a nice job and explains alot.

If you're only going to be up there occasionally, I'd skip the radiant floor heat unless you're planning on moving up there in the future. I'd consider some propane heat and possibly wood heat as well. That's if you have access to firewood. A few days cutting could supply you for the winter for as little as you spend there.

 

[ngiovas]

If I were to build a pole bldg that size, I would use laminated columns set on..... doggone I forget what they are called at the moment. Go to YouTube and watch a couple of videos from RR Buildings. Kyle does a nice job and explains alot.

If you're only going to be up there occasionally, I'd skip the radiant floor heat unless you're planning on moving up there in the future. I'd consider some propane heat and possibly wood heat as well. That's if you have access to firewood. A few days cutting could supply you for the winter for as little as you spend there.

I eventually will be moving up there. One thought was to add the radiant floor tubing now so that it is available later if needed. I have also thought about heating with wood. I have 40 acres of thick forest. Just the fallen trees will provide me lots of firewood.

 

[ngiovas]

I am getting a bit closer to making a final decision on the barn. I have had several more conversations with the builder that I like the best. He seems to have a lot of knowledge, he has been very responsive to my questions and changes to the quote, and he has a competitive price. I had another contractor pop up at the last minute through a referral, so I decided to get one more quote. I was concerned that his price seemed too low, plus he wanted just over 60% down which I would not be willing to do. Then as he started answering some of my questions, I just wasn't comfortable. He is licenced and insured, but he told me that there was no need to get an engineered drawing (where every other contractor was firm in the first conversation that they wouldn't build a barn this size without the drawing). I'm just going to stick with my gut on this one. I don't want to save a few dollars now just to have issues down the road.

With that said, I had the contractor I prefer provide two additional quotes: 1 for a 50x60 barn (10' wider than original quote) and one with the original 40x60 barn, but with a 20' lean-to the length of the entire barn (20x60). Adding 10' of width to the barn caused a significant jump in the price of the barn. It went from $51K with concrete to $74K with concrete. The quote for the lean-to came back at $9500 without concrete. He is getting me a price to include the concrete in the lean-to. Off the top of his head, he was guessing that it would be around $6,000, but he said it may be less.

The main barn would have 16' ceilings, and he said that the ceiling height of the lean-to would be around 10'. This would give me 1200 sq' additional space vs only 600 sq' with a 10' wider main barn. I think getting double the floor space for 40% of the cost is a better value.

I really like the idea of using this additional space for a woodshop and storage, so I started playing around with some ideas to see what the layout might look like. As always, I am open to any and all input. Especially when it comes to the dimensions of the rooms within the lean-to. Is this enough space for these rooms? Should I be considering a different use of the space? Let me know your thoughts.

By the way, I was up at the property last weekend and there was still 3 feet of snow in spots. Won't be able to start clearing any trees for a while.

A couple of quick notes:

• To keep the initial cost down, I will likely have the overhead door on the end of the barn framed, but not installed at this time.
• He is also having the barn engineered for a finished/insulated ceiling even though that would not come until later.
• Roof pict would be 4/12 and rated for the northern Michigan snow load (60 pounds plus). He said that the engineer he uses also designs for hurricane winds.
• Steel for siding and roof would be from a company called ABC steel. It is a 29 gauge steel. He said he didn't feel there is a need for additional thickness.
• Main posts would be treated 6x6 posts.

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[RPH]

Look at diypole barns.com. They have an excellent quote generator for barns. It gives you a chance to play with options and see the cost. I found that once you go wider than 30’ the cost goes up dramatically. Longer is cheaper than wider. They also have crews and free delivery. Pole building is fairly easy to put up.

 

[ngiovas]

Look at diypole barns.com. They have an excellent quote generator for barns. It gives you a chance to play with options and see the cost. I found that once you go wider than 30’ the cost goes up dramatically. Longer is cheaper than wider. They also have crews and free delivery. Pole building is fairly easy to put up.

Thanks, I already checked with them. By the time I add in the cost for the concrete floor, they were about $3,000 on the base barn and that was assuming their "as low as" labor cost. It could be higher. For the lean-to, they wouldn't let me go wider than 12'.

 

[Fish-man]

I see you have 6ft overhead doors into the leanto... If the spaces are big enough for a car, I'd plan a door big enough for a car as well.

 

[ngiovas]

I see you have 6ft overhead doors into the leanto... If the spaces are big enough for a car, I'd plan a door big enough for a car as well.

That's actually a good idea. The cost difference in the rollup doors isn't that much since they don't need to be insulated.