Question regarding main lugs in 200amp panel

[DerStig]

Hello forum,

Ever since I first moved into this house several years ago, something bothered me about my main panel.

There are two things I want to ask/find out:

1) As you can see both of my main lugs appear burned (the one on the right is worse). Should/can they be repaired/replaced?

2) You can see some sort of a surge protector is installed where two wires connect to the main lugs (and a neutral to the neutral main lug). I dont think this is correct. Furthermore, I already have a properly installed Siemens surge protector on a 20 amp breaker. Can/should this be removed? How hard it is, and what is the right way to do so?

Thanks

Also just as a side note, the surge protector I have is this : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B013WINMK6/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Terry D]

The surge protector should be connected to a 2-pole breaker, usually 15 amp. You will have to remove the wires from the main lugs. There is 240 volts across those two lugs. You can pull the meter to kill it, maybe you have a outside disconnect. Or do it hot, I would remove all the load by turning off the main breaker, but be aware those lugs will still be hot, the main thing is don't do it if you are not comfortable with it, hire someone. then you need to have room in the panel to install a 2-pole breaker. this might be the reason it was done like this in the first place. As far as the lug on the right side, a lot of that looks like anti oxide paste. The arc mark is probably from someone else working in there, possibly installing the surge protector, and contacting with a metal tool that was grounded. nothing to be concerned about. If the lug was loose or failing, the wire would be heating up and you would see damage on the conductor

 

[sberry]

Ok, from the pic. It that grease? Are the big alum wires actually burned. Those small wires should not be connected to those incoming lugs. The should be connected to a breaker, they look to be about number 10 so a 60 or smaller. Almost looks like an arc strike while someone installed it.

 

[AngryBeaver]

. Almost looks like an arc strike while someone installed it.

thats exactly what it looks like

 

[sberry]

I was fuggin around in a congested 100A a while back, hit a lug with a 12 grounded ground wire, pushed it against it, as I recall it was about a foot long, maybe a little less. I shut the breaker off probably just before it tripped. I bet that strike was a bit of a surprise.

 

[DerStig]

Guys,

I already have a siemens Fs140 surge protector installed (I did it) on a proper 20 amp breaker. This old surge protector does not need to be there. Sorry if I wasnt clear on my OP. I put a link in my OP about what protector I installed.

I have no idea what surgeprotector this one is (on main lugs), who installed it etc.

I do have a meter outside. there is a lock on it. Do i need to call the electrical company to open it?

Once I open it, i turn off the power, then loosen the lugs and remove?

1) how much torque do you need to tighten? I have various torque wrenches so I can be precise
2) What size allen head do you need for those lugs?

Also if you look closely, not only there is grease but also some melted insulation on the wire. You can zoom in on the picture if you make it full screen

 

[BD1]

Maybe contact utilitity company for their opinion. They maybe in your area in the future and see if you could schedule shutdown with them.


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[mike93lx]

The surge protector should be connected to a 2-pole breaker, usually 15 amp. You will have to remove the wires from the main lugs. There is 240 volts across those two lugs. You can pull the meter to kill it, maybe you have a outside disconnect. Or do it hot, I would remove all the load by turning off the main breaker, but be aware those lugs will still be hot, the main thing is don't do it if you are not comfortable with it, hire someone. then you need to have room in the panel to install a 2-pole breaker. this might be the reason it was done like this in the first place. As far as the lug on the right side, a lot of that looks like anti oxide paste. The arc mark is probably from someone else working in there, possibly installing the surge protector, and contacting with a metal tool that was grounded. nothing to be concerned about. If the lug was loose or failing, the wire would be heating up and you would see damage on the conductor

No one asking questions like this should be going anywhere near a meter. Come on

 

[sberry]

If I had wayyyyy to much coffee, ,,, would have my helper do it,,, ha, wouldn't wanna hurt myself.

 

[Terry D]

Your utility company might come out and pull the meter while you make the repair. They also might reguire a inspection to reenergize, dont know how it works in your area. In my area, me being licensed, i am allowed to pull and reinstall a meter to make a repair, with just calling them. You will have to cut the wire off a little, to get to fresh wire that hasn't been torqued down. Then you can re torque it. The torgue specs should be on the panel lable. As far size, lugs vary

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[rjacobs]

Are wire nuts allowed in a panel?

 

[Terry D]

No one asking questions like this should be going anywhere near a meter. Come on

He asked how, i also explained the dangers of doing it. Also said to hire it out if not comfortable with it. We dont know his skill level. I also might have been scaring him to not try and do it him self. Heck, you could probably you tube it and find out how to do it. Hopefully he has enough sense to have someone else do it.

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[TRWham]

Are wire nuts allowed in a panel?

Yes, they are.

 

[Terry D]

Are wire nuts allowed in a panel?

It is ok to extend branch circuit wires if they are not long enough to reach breaker locations in a panel change out , at least in my area

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[Terry D]

No one asking questions like this should be going anywhere near a meter. Come on

You are correct, i shouldn't have explained it like it was a DIY fix

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[DerStig]

I have done some medium level electrical work including rewiring 12 or so circuits using
3/4” to 1/2” EMT. I used around 150-200 ft of pipe and probably over 500 ft of 12 gauge wire. Thats many junction boxes, outlets, light fixtures rewired. Also redid the entire inside of that panel to AFCI/GFCI breakers. Those pictures I posted are old.

So no, I am not licensed but I m well into advanced DIY level.

 

[sberry]

I am not a neat freak here but,, this might be worth fashioning a couple lug covers for, turning off the main, prop a couple big flashlights up and do some clean up. Whoops,, see you said old pics.

 

[DerStig]

For those who said I can try to remove these wires without turning off the power from meter, arent those lugs live? So I cannot loosen them as they are. Thats probably how that lug on the right had the burn marks.

 

[sberry]

See if they pull out or snip them close with dykes. But no one is jumping to the conclusion you might be a lic electrician.
But, I got insulated tool, might turn it off so no load, loosen, pull it out and snug it back down. Before we get in to "re torque" it would only be an assumption that it was done in the first place.

 

[mike93lx]

I have done some medium level electrical work including rewiring 12 or so circuits using
3/4” to 1/2” EMT. I used around 150-200 ft of pipe and probably over 500 ft of 12 gauge wire. Thats many junction boxes, outlets, light fixtures rewired. Also redid the entire inside of that panel to AFCI/GFCI breakers. Those pictures I posted are old.

So no, I am not licensed but I m well into advanced DIY level.

Advanced DIY has no place in pulling meters and pulling a meter is very different than installing conduit and an outlet. But every guy with linesman's pliers and a roll of electrical tape is advanced DIY today

 

[sberry]

Not sure who "someone" else is? If they would be any safer in a hot panel. It is important to consider there is no basic fault protection, some care in order for sure.

 

[sberry]

Advanced DIY has no place in pulling meters. But every guy with linesman's pliers and a roll of electrical tape is advanced DIY today

There has always been a difference between knowing and think they know, this is not recent. I have ran across hobby types do as good of work as anyone, welders and mechanics too.

 

[Norcal]

There is no overcurrent protection on anything between the transformer and those lugs, get someone who is trained and qualified to fix the mess, as any mistake will be a big problem it is not DIY territory.

 

[DerStig]

Advanced DIY has no place in pulling meters and pulling a meter is very different than installing conduit and an outlet. But every guy with linesman's pliers and a roll of electrical tape is advanced DIY today

I am not at all suggesting I can pull meter. I was only explaining the level of experience I have.

The only way I will attempt to do this is if the meter box has some sort of a switch that power company allows me to shut off. Otherwise I will ask an electrician.

I suppose this is at most 30 minutes of work?

 

[mike93lx]

I am not at all suggesting I can pull meter. I was only explaining the level of experience I have.

The only way I will attempt to do this is if the meter box has some sort of a switch that power company allows me to shut off. Otherwise I will ask an electrician.

I suppose this is at most 30 minutes of work?

They have to suit up, get the POCO to remove the tag, do the work then get the POCO to come back out and retag. It will take a lot more than 30.min of billable time.

I would guess at least a few hundred dollars,assuming permitting isn't needed

 

[Bert_]

The logs show no signs of heating. The dark colored stuff is just grease.

The surge protector should be connected differently but if you're asking all these questions you probably shouldn't be the one to do it.

None of it is going to fail anytime in the near future.

 

[sberry]

I think asking makes him quite conscientious,,, its people that don't ask cause most of the problems.

 

[mike93lx]

No one is giving him grief for asking questions

 

[Norcal]

No one is giving him grief for asking questions

Better to ask then do with out asking, there are no dumb questions. Other then what time the 7:00 movie is on.

 

[sberry]

I did so much dangerous **** when I was a kid and so many people do this every day that you are self insuring, this guy isn't deluded the risk is probably less than sport riding ATV maybe, skiing? Riding a bicycle or bet less than smoking for sure?
Just out of curiosity how many people hurt themselves tightening main lugs every year? ****,,, I forgot about motorcycles.

 

[sberry]

When I was a sprout we used to unhook good conductors, put spark plug boots on them and pull a panel off and slide a new one in. You can use a 6 space or install a main with an 8 that fit right in the same space. Could really essentially install a replacement 60 service

 

[mike93lx]

I did so much dangerous **** when I was a kid and so many people do this every day that you are self insuring, this guy isn't deluded the risk is probably less than sport riding ATV maybe, skiing? Riding a bicycle or bet less than smoking for sure?
Just out of curiosity how many people hurt themselves tightening main lugs every year? ****,,, I forgot about motorcycles.

Just because you survived doesn't mean it was smart.

Everyone has their own risk tolerances. Don't justify other people doing stupid **** because you did.

 

[Jagmandave]

In my area the POCO will come out and remove the meter so you can work safely, then re-install it when you're done.

 

[sberry]

They think nothing of throwing a leg over a 2 wheel rocket with a helmet for saftey equipment that wouldn't be legal for safety if it was invented today. Some places no helmet needed. I an not advocating it but getting a grasp as to the actual risk. In my lifetime 2 actuals killed I know of, not Internet but one 50 yrs and 1 at least 20, both hi line contact.

 

[bczygan]

I've pulled my meter and will do so again in the future.

First I power down all loads in the house.

With smart meters you have to notify the POCO or they will send out a crew to fix the perceived outage.

I won't work hot, especially if installing a new service entrance. I'll get someone else to disconnect and reconnect the OH drop.

Bill

 

[sberry]

You rightly shouldn't work hot.
I wouldn't want to recut and strip all this hot, big difference than snuggling lugs. I understand it's still hot but a couple snug is very controlled vs a refit with lots of moves.
Although being routine can lead to sloppy it's different than a guy done it hundreds of times. A couple times have skipped and flipped the wrong breaker, it's sloppy but have done it.
A place I have nicked myself it Homeline panels. I an so used to QO and CH it's an instinct and the stabs on HOM stick out if they ain't covered full of breakers, have brushed 3 or 4 of them.

 

[Zeke]

thats exactly what it looks like

Or, someone had a 'moment' coming in contact with the RH lug. It looks different from the LH one. I did this once 45 years ago and I still remember and I still have the pliers with the notch burned out of one side. Glad they were insulated and the insulation was intact.

 

[wormwood1978]

Hello forum,

Ever since I first moved into this house several years ago, something bothered me about my main panel.

There are two things I want to ask/find out:

1) As you can see both of my main lugs appear burned (the one on the right is worse). Should/can they be repaired/replaced?

2) You can see some sort of a surge protector is installed where two wires connect to the main lugs (and a neutral to the neutral main lug). I dont think this is correct. Furthermore, I already have a properly installed Siemens surge protector on a 20 amp breaker. Can/should this be removed? How hard it is, and what is the right way to do so?

Thanks

Also just as a side note, the surge protector I have is this : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B013WINMK6/?tag=atomicindus08-20

I have a similar situation as you. I have lived in my house for a five years and it was new construction when I moved in. My electrician who was also the plumber was a subcontractor was not the best electrician/plumber and I have caught several mistakes he made over the years.

About a year after I moved in, I had a different electrician troubleshooting my generator transfer switch (original electrician wired it backwards). The troubleshooting electrician pointed out to me that one of the lugs on my panel was burnt. I imagine the original electrician dorked something up during construction. I asked the new electrician if it needed to be repaired. I told him I wasn't having any electrical problems. He said it didn't look like any more damage was being caused and he said not to worry about it unless it really bugged me. This was about four years ago and I have not had any problems. I was most recently in my panel six months ago and there was no further charring from when it was first noticed.

 

[wormwood1978]

top right lug on my panel is burnt as well

View media item 102313

 

[DerStig]

Can someone point me in the right direction as far as how those lugs can be replaced? Is it difficult? Assuming I can find them from siemens.