Armstrong Vs Gearwrench ratcheting wrenches

[Hiball]

There is alot of double talk in that Berry amendment in regards to allowing the use of imported parts used based on availablility and not excluding a percentage of the steel used.

 

[Teken]

Lots of different posts get old fast, BTW. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.

But, I can assure you that major corporations who's work involves critical or dangerous work environments test tools before they are put into the field. However, comprehensive testing is (i) very expensive, (ii) has competitive value and the information is not just released for free because you want it. So, don't hold your breath waiting for someone to give you the information.

Also, quality is often a state of mind. Some people and societies naturally embrace it and some don't.



"WASHINGTON, D.C. – July 14, 2008 – Armstrong Tools, a division of Danaher Corporation, Pelican™ Products, Inc. and UFP Technologies, Inc. have won a contract to design and build a mobile tool kit for the United States Army and Marines that meets stringent Berry Amendment “Made in the USA” requirements.

Over the five-year, $125 million dollar contract’s life, the companies will manufacture in excess of 96,000 tool kits designed to exceed the demanding requirements of service personnel across the globe.

From top-to-bottom, the contract requires the kit to be mobile and include uniformly branded tools for accuracy of inventory. The case needs to survive rough handling and transport in extreme environments as well as organize parts uniformly with configurable drawers that keep the tools secure, even after the case has been turned upside down while closed.

Each manufacturer is contributing “best-of-breed” elements to the kit that not only meet but exceed all military specs. Armstrong Tools supplied more than 175 forged alloy steel tool pieces designed to operate in the hottest Middle Eastern deserts to the coldest arctic environments. The set can be used for servicing and repairing all forms of armored and conventional vehicles, both tracked and wheeled."



Forbes-Dealing With China's 'Quality Fade'


"Recent media reports detailing a series of quality problems with Chinese-made exports have understandably alarmed the American public and resulted in a number of international product recalls.

But supply chain professionals not directly affected by these recalls remain unusually calm. "Everything will be all right," said one U.S. importer on a buying mission to China. "As the country continues to develop, the quality of its products will naturally rise."

It's the sort of comment that sounds logical, but is not necessarily true. Quality does not always rise over time, as China's own history shows. At the end of the 19th century, the West rushed to buy China's beautiful silk products. Demand quickly expanded, and new players moved into the market. As competition intensified, manufacturers began to cut corners on quality, and silk products out of China soon gained a reputation as inferior goods."

I have quite a few friends in Iraq right now they told me when they received their Armstrong battle kits all of them almost wet their pants!

I will ask my friend to take a photo of the battle kits, and you can see how Armstrong has not only met the stringent standards of the armed forces, but the vast amount of build quality in the tool chests, and the tools that the armed forces are using day in day out.

 

[Mickey O]

Here is from the Armstrong website:

You'd think it'd be easy to figure out if something’s “Made in U.S.A.” If it’s made in America from materials that come from within the 50 states, then it’s “Made in U.S.A,” whether it’s a gym shoe or a ratchet set.

Seems simple enough to us at Armstrong Industrial Hand Tools. Even the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) has historically agreed that “all or virtually all” of the components and processes used to make a product must be of U.S. origin to earn the “Made in U.S.A.” honor.

But some manufacturers have wanted to wrap themselves in red, white and blue...while using foreign-made components or processes in their products. They tried to get the FTC to relax the rules determining what’s “Made in U.S.A.” They said that partially America-made is close enough to call it “Made in U.S.A.”

We said that a partial truth is still a lie, and you said that “Made in U.S.A.” should mean just that. And the rest of America agrees.

After two years of public hearings, studies and reports, in December 1997 the FTC reaffirmed the obvious:

product will be considered “...all or virtually all made in the United States” only where “all significant parts and processing that go into the product are of U.S. origin.”

At Armstrong Industrial Hand Tools we believe that stamping our products “Made in U.S.A.” is a privilege that must be earned. You should know that:


* Armstrong ratchets, sockets, wrenches and accessories are “Made in U.S.A.” - from forge to finish.

* We are proud to assure you that Armstrong Industrial Hand Tools marked “Made in U.S.A.” have earned the honor.

So the next time one of our competitors tries to push off ratchets, sockets or wrenches made from foreign forgings as “Made in U.S.A.,” ask them for the honest truth.

 

[LoneGunman]

The press release really is going to make me lean towards Armstrong for just about everything. I love their ratchets to begin with, now I know that Armstrong tools have passed military tests, that says a lot to me. I don't believe the Gearwrench ratcheting wrenches are going to be inferior to the Armstrong ones but I do place value on COO, I'm just not radical about it. I won't be getting rid of my current GW ratcheting wrenches but in the future I'll be buying Armstrong if they have what I need.

 

[Teken]

The press release really is going to make me lean towards Armstrong for just about everything. I love their ratchets to begin with, now I know that Armstrong tools have passed military tests, that says a lot to me. I don't believe the Gearwrench ratcheting wrenches are going to be inferior to the Armstrong ones but I do place value on COO, I'm just not radical about it. I won't be getting rid of my current GW ratcheting wrenches but in the future I'll be buying Armstrong if they have what I need.

I have the same view as yours. But, there are some tools I can't afford to have break while out on the job, and 100 feet in the air, at -40'C to boot.

So, the first tool in my tool belt will be like the alphabet, it starts with a (A)rmstrong . . .

 

[arkangel06]

Atleast they say usa on them Cough cough.....

 

[Titus]

...the finish on the armstrongs is better than that of the gearwrenches. It has that brighter deeper look to the chrome than the gearwrenches...

While my Gearwrench ratchet wrenches have functioned fine, I am a little disappointed in the quality of the chrome finish. I have had mine for about 2 years, and several have started to develop minor surface rust. The Snap-on combo and line wrenches that they share a drawer with have not suffered the same fate. I will likely give the Armstrongs a try if I ever buy more.

 

[LoneGunman]

The rep from the company that produces them and posted in this thread must be lying and the military must also be in on this conspiracy,right? Either that or you make comments without even bothering to read the thread.

Atleast they say usa on them Cough cough.....

 

[Hiball]

The rep from the company that produces them and posted in this thread must be lying and the military must also be in on this conspiracy,right? Either that or you make comments without even bothering to read the thread.

His comment isnt directed towards Armstrong tools.

 

[Mickey O]

The rep from the company that produces them and posted in this thread must be lying and the military must also be in on this conspiracy,right? Either that or you make comments without even bothering to read the thread.

His comment is directed towards Armstrong tools.

I was thinking his comment was in reference to a couple of other well known companies that have stopped putting USA on their tools, one in particular.

He'll have to tell us what he meant, funny how we all get different takes on the same thing.

 

[Hiball]

I was thinking his comment was in reference to a couple of other well known companies that have stopped putting USA on their tools, one in particular.

He'll have to tell us what he meant, funny how we all get different takes on the same thing.

LOL i meant:

His comment isn't directed towards Armstrong tools.

 

[LoneGunman]

Very true and I apologize if that is the case.

I was thinking his comment was in reference to a couple of other well known companies that have stopped putting USA on their tools, one in particular.

He'll have to tell us what he meant, funny how we all get different takes on the same thing.

 

[Teken]

I am sure he meant or is implying Snap-On, Mac tools . . .

 

[BB26]

Its a shame the Gearwrench line doesn't come from China though...

Actually, quite a bit of their line is produced in China. GearWrench tools were originally manufactured in Taiwan but in recent years more and more production has moved over to China.

 

[benjamming]

So, are the reversible ratcheting Armstrong wrenches 100% made in USA as well? If so, I find it odd that the vinyl pouch they come in doesn't say made in USA on it. The MAXX power ratcheting sets do as well as the full polish box, stubby, & the older (?) ratcheting wrench sets such as 25-667 & 52-667.

 

[Teken]

So, are the reversible ratcheting Armstrong wrenches 100% made in USA as well? If so, I find it odd that the vinyl pouch they come in doesn't say made in USA on it. The MAXX power ratcheting sets do as well as the full polish box, stubby, & the older (?) ratcheting wrench sets such as 25-667 & 52-667.

You're speaking about the pouch only correct, and not the tools right?

 

[benjamming]

Armstrong Catalog

Page 6-2 shows the pouch for the MAXX ratcheting wrenches with made in USA on the pouch. Page 6-3 doesn't show made in USA on the pouch for the reversible ratcheting wrenches. I assume the pouches are all the same in regards to COO. I would consider the label on a pouch for a wrench set to be referring to the contents of the pouch - wrenches in this case.

 

[Teken]

I looked threw the entire catalog, can you post a image of what you're speaking of. Couldn't see anything out of the ordinary to be honest. The pouches I saw either had one or both markings on the bags.

Either it was imprinted made in the USA, or there was a sewn in label that said made in the USA or both on the packaging.

 

[l_bilyk]

I agree that both Armstrong and GearWrench are quality tools.


However, Armstrong tools feel better because they are better. Armstrong tools are made in the U.S. to higher quality standards than GearWrench to compete with companies like Snap-On, Wright and Proto; and, they are made to last more duty cycles. GearWrench tools are imported from Taiwan and China to compete with KD and other second tier tool companies.

Both are good. Buy what makes you happy.

Regarding the "the pro-American tool guys" statement: I live in the United States along with my family and friends and care about them having jobs in the future. I care about their quality of life.

Countries don't build wealth (and the middle class) from service industries. They build wealth from mining, energy production and manufacturing. As many people have learned during the last few years, we are now destroying our middle class at an ever increasing rate due to sending manufacturing overseas.

First of all, gearwrench is not a competitor for KD. Gearwrench is a consumer oriented line of hand tools; KD is a line of specialty tools. Both are made by Danaher, who also manufactures Matco, SATA (remember that US-made chinese torque wrench thread?), Armstrong, and several private labels (I think Kobalt, but don't quote me on that.)

Second, I highly doubt quality standards are different across the two lines. Maybe one of the Gearwrench guys can chime in and confirm or deny this. Maybe Danaher has lower quality standards for some of it's private label brands, but I sincerely doubt they do for Gearwrench. There is no reason why Taiwan cannot produce a tool of equal quality to the US. Taiwan is an industrialized nation with a high income economy. If a low quality tool comes from Taiwan it's because the company that produced it set low quality standards, not because Taiwan is incapable of producing quality. It takes considerably less technology to forge a wrench than it does to produce an iPod - and Taiwan appears to be particularly good at doing the latter.

Finally, what you said about building wealth only confirms my point. It's perfectly fine to buy American in order to support the economy. Whether it really does support the economy is debatable, but it certainly doesn't hurt. However, the belief that other countries are incapable of producing quality tools is a delusion shared by too many members of this forum.

 

[petty4243]

If they are the same, and it sure seems that way, Im going with gearwrench due to the price difference. I can get the 16 set of Gearwrench for less than the 12 set from Armstrong and get the same wrench.

Anyone with a truly unbiased opinion compare the two?

I have only one armstrong ratcheting wrench, a 13m reversible...I have used it every day for the last 2 1/2 years(work days) and it has never failed me.... mean while in my gearwrench brand line... i replaced the 15mm 6 times in 5 weeks, 13 mm 3 times in 6 months, 10mm about 7 times in 2 years.... finaly put them on back up and bought blue points...... even though i was able to warranty the gearwrench, i was at tool shop about once a week or more for a replacement.......so far bluepoints are flawless and have not needed the gearwrench since.... still use the armstrong 13mm because it has a longer handle.... helps with stubborn drain plugs

now keep in mind... when i bought the gearwrench ratcheting wrenches, i thought they were a gods gift to tool users.... now after 2 1/2 years of hands on.... i am less than impressed.....

just my 2 cents worth

 

[Merkava_4]

It's not a great picture, but it is stamped Armstrong.

Those are sweet.

 

[LoneGunman]

"However, the belief that other countries are incapable of producing quality tools is a delusion shared by too many members of this forum."
There are plenty of countries that can produce tools at least equal to the United States and I'll risk the flaming and say that IMHO there are a few countries that exceed the quality of tools made here. I believe Taiwan puts out some quality tools but China would have a very hard time putting out quality tools consistently.

 

[l_bilyk]

"However, the belief that other countries are incapable of producing quality tools is a delusion shared by too many members of this forum."
There are plenty of countries that can produce tools at least equal to the United States and I'll risk the flaming and say that IMHO there are a few countries that exceed the quality of tools made here. I believe Taiwan puts out some quality tools but China would have a very hard time putting out quality tools consistently.

I agree with that. There are very few countries that actually DO produce quality tools. However, China could produce very high quality tools in they wished. Hong Kong, Shanghai, Tianjin, etc. are all industrial centres. They make jet fighters in Sichuan. That same company supplies entire tail assemblies to Boeing and parts to airbus. If China wanted to produce a tool line to rival snap-on they very well could.

The reason why they typically don't is because discount stores like Harbour Freight work out contracts with factories in some backwoods Chinese province (or in India) to produce cheap generic hand tools for pennies and stamp them Pittsburgh. Their consumers are price-sensitive and unwilling to spend the extra money for quality. Then on the other hand you have US companies like snap-on that cater to less price-sensitive mechanics (see: $150 dollar C-clamp) that are willing to pay whatever snap-on asks so long as the quality is there. Now snap-on has the know-how to produce quality tools anywhere in the world. They could set up a snap-on factory in China (I think they already have) that produces tools to the snap-on standard, but until recently they have had no incentive to do so. Made in USA has always been a positive thing and if snap-on wanted to increase margins they just raised the price. Unfortunately competitive pressures and greed have put an end to that - I think parts of the mechanism in my dual 80 ratchet are Chinese.

My point is this - Chinese tools are usually crappy because the companies that produce them are usually cost-cutters that would produce crappy tools no matter what. Twenty years from now all the junk tools will be made in India.

 

[Fedwrench]

They should change all of the sub brand names to Danaher. then there wouldn't be as many arguments over which is better than this.

 

[RbrtAWhyt]

That doesn't mean they are rebranded or are employing brand engineering.

You hope...

 

[RbrtAWhyt]

I can offer you this as one example. Look at the handle of that ratchet, compare that to the Gearwrench in your hand.

Both are nice, but in my hand this handle is ergonomicly made correct. Hence the *feel* is better. Now what one prefers over another is subjective but if you have millions of people buying the same brand and the same tool, there's a reason and it's not a fan boy reason in my eye's.

That's what I can offer you, you can decide . . .

What that proves is absolutely nothing in terms of a tools durablilty.

 

[RbrtAWhyt]

"WASHINGTON, D.C. – July 14, 2008 – Armstrong Tools, a division of Danaher Corporation, Pelican™ Products, Inc. and UFP Technologies, Inc. have won a contract to design and build a mobile tool kit for the United States Army and Marines that meets stringent Berry Amendment “Made in the USA” requirements.

Those companies were simply the lowest bidders. Lowest bidder almost always equals lowest quality, cheapest build, and cheapest supplied goods, especially in the case of the military. Thats my first hand experience from being in the military. If not for the stringent Berry Amendment I would bet that those companies would have in fact not been the lowest bidders...

 

[RbrtAWhyt]

Here is from the Armstrong website:

Sounds like propaganda from the Armstrong website, especially since they want you to buy thier tools. Tell the target buyer exactly what they want to hear.

 

[Mickey O]

Sounds like propaganda from the Armstrong website, especially since they want you to buy thier tools. Tell the target buyer exactly what they want to hear.

It would be fraud if it wasn't true, it sounds more like they are making tools people want to buy and not just telling people what they want to hear, coincidentally in this case they are the same but not mutually exclusive.

 

[Skin]

This is incorrect.

Thanks,

Steve

Hi Steve, with respect i had placed a call about 4 months ago for a warranty question and also happened to ask about the ratcheting wrenches and from what i was told some do indeed use imported parts but were, to paraphrase "proudly assembled in the US". I personally dont care one way or another as i have had great success with my GW, just what i was told.

While my Gearwrench ratchet wrenches have functioned fine, I am a little disappointed in the quality of the chrome finish. I have had mine for about 2 years, and several have started to develop minor surface rust. The Snap-on combo and line wrenches that they share a drawer with have not suffered the same fate. I will likely give the Armstrongs a try if I ever buy more.

Thats strange. Between the 10 sets that i have access to [work and personal] none have any chrome or surface rust issues. And i live in a climate that is far more humid and harsh than what you have in Texas i'm sure. Do you actually use them and keep them clean? Neglect is the only reason i could think would cause something like that.

It would be fraud if it wasn't true

Uh, no it wouldnt. Thats marketing my friend and they have you hook line and sinker. If you believed every companies mission statement you'd be in possession of a lot of garbage right now.

but China would have a very hard time putting out quality tools consistently.

I agree and its because the factories are often geared towards quantity rather than quality. The BEST imports cost a lot because those are the companies that usually recieve then sort and bin their products and often they end up canning a lot of product that dont meet requirements. Thats just what it takes to make and market a quality product overseas. You're paying more because you're paying for all the units that didnt make the grade, as well as the one in your hands that did.

 

[benjamming]

That doesn't mean they are rebranded or are employing brand engineering.

You hope...

Its not hope. It's logic. What I hope is that they aren't lying.

 

[benjamming]

I looked threw the entire catalog, can you post a image of what you're speaking of. Couldn't see anything out of the ordinary to be honest. The pouches I saw either had one or both markings on the bags.

Either it was imprinted made in the USA, or there was a sewn in label that said made in the USA or both on the packaging.

Examples:

Armstrong 54-950 no made in USA on pouch.

Armstrong 53-847 with made in USA on pouch.

 

[Teken]

Examples:

Armstrong 54-950 no made in USA on pouch.

Armstrong 53-847 with made in USA on pouch.

As I indicated above the pouch will have one, either, or both of the USA markings.

On the link you provided that *appears* that their is no made in the USA, is next to the smallest wrench, just above the open end of the tool.

You will have to zoom in to see it completely, but it is there . .

 

[LoneGunman]

"Uh, no it wouldnt. Thats marketing my friend and they have you hook line and sinker. If you believed every companies mission statement you'd be in possession of a lot of garbage right now."

If a company website says their tools are made in the USA and it turns out they are not then that is not marketing that is illegal according to the FTC. I agree their is a LOT of hype in marketing but you still cannot claim tools are US made when they are not. I know they get away with it when they claim an opinion, an example I'm familiar with is a firearms coating manufacturer who claims they have the "Finest firearms finish on the planet" when the fact is their coatings ***** when it comes to abrasion resistance and other factors. They also buy their so called patented formula from a large paint manufacturer and claim they spent a bunch of time formulating it. I HATE hype, even if the product is good, if they hype the sh1t out of it I won't buy it. I'd probably get a lot more work if I bu11shitted people with marketing.

 

[Skin]

If a company website says their tools are made in the USA and it turns out they are not then that is not marketing that is illegal according to the FTC.

Like i said it doesnt take much to get that stamp. The ratcheting mechanisms and handles of ratchets and ratcheting wrenches are often sourced outside the country, shipped to a factory and assembled here. They can still stamp USA on it. Doesnt take much.

 

[Teken]

I believe GJ member RbrtAWhyt is just fooling around with his replies and doesn't in fact believe what he wrote to be honest.

As for the *Forged to finish, and made in the USA* it is not hype, marketing, or trying to mislead the consumer.

They have simply stated what they do, and will continue to do . . . Not very complicated at all, and it's obvious that they take it seriously.

All I can say is that I have had their older tools for more than 30 years, and only now am I buying the new stuff.

Why?? Because I deserve to be pampered after 30 years, and would like to have all the new toys in my personal collection, instead of all of them being at work.

Their tools have served me well in those 30 years, and none of them have ever broken. Now with all the new gearwrench styles and flex heads that are available I can add more of the tools I really wanted but never needed for work, or play.

I forsee another 30 years of performance, quality, and stead fast support from them as I have had in the past . . .

 

[benjamming]

As I indicated above the pouch will have one, either, or both of the USA markings.

On the link you provided that *appears* that their is no made in the USA, is next to the smallest wrench, just above the open end of the tool.

You will have to zoom in to see it completely, but it is there . .

I see a flag but can't tell if it says made in USA or not. This is probably worth finding at the local Fastenal (?) to know for sure prior to order.

 

[Teken]

I see a flag but can't tell if it says made in USA or not. This is probably worth finding at the local Fastenal (?) to know for sure prior to order.

Are you worried about the tools not being made in the USA, or the bag? Both are indeed made in the USA. And by the off chance that the bag was not in fact made in the USA, would that bother you that much?

I would have a preference if the tools were made in the USA, and if the bag wasn't it wouldn't bother me at all to be honest.

 

[RbrtAWhyt]

I believe GJ member RbrtAWhyt is just fooling around with his replies and doesn't in fact believe what he wrote to be honest.

Some of them maybe.

Here are a couple of things I do believe:

1. Just because a tool, or some other product, says "Made in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

</st1:country-region>USA" on it, does not mean that it actually is completely made in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region>. As folks have pointed out manufacturers know how to manipulate the components just so they can stamp the product "Made in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA"</st1:country-region>.

2. Just because a tool, or some other produce is Made in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA, t</ST1</st1:country-region>hat does not automatically make it superior to a product made elsewhere. If that were true, I believe the buying public would in fact buy American more often.

3. I don't think just because a tool or product is made in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region> that it instantly justifies a higher price, and I don't think that just because a tool or other product is made here, that that in itself makes it a quality product. I think more people, especially the general tool buying public, would be more careful about buying American if pricing were more reasonable. I think that in most case the inflated prices of "professional" tools are more the result of marketing and hype, more than inherent quality and actual superiority.<O</O

 

[Teken]

Some of them maybe.

Here are a couple of things I do believe:

1. Just because a tool, or some other product, says "Made in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

</st1:country-region>USA" on it, does not mean that it actually is completely made in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region>. As folks have pointed out manufacturers know how to manipulate the components just so they can stamp the product "Made in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA"</st1:country-region>.

2. Just because a tool, or some other produce is Made in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA, t</ST1</st1:country-region>hat does not automatically make it superior to a product made elsewhere. If that were true, I believe the buying public would in fact buy American more often.

3. I don't think just because a tool or product is made in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region> that it instantly justifies a higher price, and I don't think that just because a tool or other product is made here, that that in itself makes it a quality product. I think more people, especially the general tool buying public, would be more careful about buying American if pricing were more reasonable. I think that in most case the inflated prices of "professional" tools are more the result of marketing and hype, more than inherent quality and actual superiority.<O</O

I don't think anything you wrote I can out and out argue about. I do believe some of it is hype, others is a blind following on American pride.

I have noted that your collection ranges in the gamet, and you're a fan of the Gearwrench brand . . .

I too will have to weight out and balance if the cost of 2-4X the amount is worth my hard earned dollars to be honest.

If it wasn't for the internet and the vast amount of competition I don't believe I could have bought as many Armstrong tools in such a short period of time, and received the incredible value I have now.

That is why I am on the fence with respect to the X-Beam flex head from Gearwrench . . . A 16 piece set is aprox $125-185.00 depnding upon where you buy them from.

The similar set from Armstrong doesn't even exists, and the one that is loosely similar is aprox. $500.00