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Between 705 & 1200 SQ/FT From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

Workspaces between 705 and 1200 squarefeet.

wasfast

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San Diego CA
Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

With no concern for budget: get both, radiant for heating and mini split for A/C. You don't need A/C a whole lot where you are but it's sure nice when you do (July-August).

Really enjoy your thread. So entertaining.........unfortunately at your expense. Sitting here with popcorn, waiting for the next installment:-0
 
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SeanH

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

Well, in a way if I leave my shop heater (80k BTU ceiling heater) set to50 at all times, everything in my garage is warm as well (except for the concrete of course) so I have the benefit of radiant heat as well. I’ve actually noticed that my slab will melt snow outside the garage door in the winter when it’s set to 50-60degrees inside. (Not something to brag about I know lol)

I’m thinking of investing in a mini split for the summer for Ac. Kind of excited to try it out!
 

BORING HOP YARD

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Boring Oregon
Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

My shop is 50 x 30 (21,000 cubic feet) built with 2x6s insulation in the walls and 2x4 ceiling joist.
Were going to add 12 inches of blown in insulation above the ceiling at some point.
My seals in my doors could be in better shape as well.
I have been heating my shop for the last 10 years keeping it at about 60.
I drop it down if I know I will be out of the shop for long period of time.
I think we heat about 4-5 months a year maybe 5-6.
Typically it around $80 per month, a few years back we had a stretch of 20 deg. days for a couple of weeks and the bill was $110


Thanks for the input, I will check out the HRV as well.
Thank you
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

Thanks for the input, I will check out the HRV as well.
Thank you

No problem! What I can't offer is a reference to another form of heating in my same building. Would be interesting to see what could be pulled off with a 28+ SEER mini-split. Bet I could get it down to cheaper than my Adobe subscription with one of those! Also, do your research on HRV vs. ERV (Heat Recovery Ventilator vs. Energy Recovery Ventilator). ERV passes moisture across the membrane to keep humidity levels up, HRV does not. If you open windows/run a fan/etc. frequently, you don't need either. If you're like me and seal the building up to pinch pennies on heating, they're a must.

repk0gd.jpg

In other news, I am officially stooooooooooked! I just agreed with a local craigslist seller on the purchase of my fist milling machine. I'll be loading it up and bringing home Monday, hopefully not destroying anything in the process. It's not the VMC I'm hoping to have some day, but it's a billion times better than nothing!

Several projects stacking up in the shop now, and not even close to enough time to get any of them done:

1.) Need to wet sand and buff out the orange peel on the van rocker panels and mount them.

2.) Need to finish Mrs. GeddyT's standing desk.

3.) I still have a Quincy 325 desperate for a receiver and some power. Solved the receiver problem (I'll get to that in a future post), but need to fit everything together and wire it up.

4.) Need to get the mill situated and wired up once it's in the shop.

5.) Need to get that XR650R motard down off the top shelf, rewire it finally, and get it back to Andrew before riding season starts. It's his commuter.

6.) Need to make some brake rotor carriers for Andrew's new Frankenbike. New mill will help with the bolt hole circles. Need a dividing head.

7.) Need to wire up and install security lights above both the overhead door and the man door per code so I get get final buyoff from L&I on the shop wiring.

8.) Need to pull wire underground from the shop to the house so I can move from separate service to house and shop to one service, all underground.

9.) Need to make and seal knee braces to be mounted under the eaves this summer.

10.) Need to install the garage door opener and wire it up.

etc.

etc.

etc.

Never ends.
 

Gentleman Adventurer

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Mother Rucker, The Heart of Dixie
Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

GT;
Great thread, just wasted most of the morning skimming through it!:bounce:

Very Nice build!:bowdown:

I'm getting ready to start a 20x40 metal building shop here in Alabama. On a slab, 2.5" closed cell spray foam in the walls, 5" in the ceiling. Insulated windows, doors and garage door. Should be pretty well sealed. Thanks for the info on HRV/ERVs. I think one needs to go in my shop as it's going to be conditioned by a mini split. I'll have to check if they have one that is built in.

We lived in Tumwater for 16 yrs before a job change brought us here. Pretty inexpensive cost of living. However my wife is a native Washatonian. So if she wants to move back, we'll be moving. In the meantime, there's a shop to build!:thumbup: Thread starting soon.

Jagmandave:
I know mine will seem small to me and ungodly huge to the wife (who will mostly be looking at the outside) but tough cookies....I'm still building it!
GLAD I'm not alone. LOL
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

Coronavirus? More like boreonavirus, ammirite!?

Since I don't want to walk out to the shop in the dumping rain just yet, I'll post some more pictures of stuff that's happened since the party.

First off, sometime in February, I was out in the shop turning some wheel spacers when my daughter walked in carrying my son's toolbox. She asked if she could borrow some wood from next to the shop, as she wanted to build a chair. I told her, "Sure, grab whatever you want."

Quite a bit of scrap, pallets, and leftover material has piled up to embarrassing levels alongside the shop, so any wood she could put to use is fine by me. Mrs. GeddyT asked me to keep it and use it to build a replacement chicken coop, but the shop build conveniently took so long that most of that wood is in pretty sad shape now (or at least that'll be my story when it comes chicken coop building time...), so I think I'll either burn it or dump it and just be rid of it all. Eventually.

Anyway, a few minutes later, she comes back in dragging two 10' lengths of scrap lumber behind her. Interesting choice, as not only were they in decent shape and nail-free relative to the rest of the pile, but they were the scraps left over from ripping down four-by-fours for the garage door track supports. So they were about an inch thick, standard 3.5 wide.

Whatever I was working on came to a halt, as this project was far more interesting, particularly when I watched her get started by taking a little hand saw out of my son's toolbox. "Hang on, Siena, I can cut that for you, but first you need to tell me how big you want the pieces."

I handed her a tape measure and showed her how to use it. Asked her to think about how long she wanted her cut lengths to be, then showed her how to mark it out using the tape measure. The length she wanted was pretty close to 16", so I showed her how to follow the red numbers on the tape measure, as it's already designed to show the user where studs are at 16" spacing. She marked all of her cuts, and I zipped them out really quick with the circular saw.

With 14 pieces cut to length to play with, she then went about designing her chair, which I left her to while getting back to my wheel spacers. Once she had her design pretty well figured out, she asked if she could have some nails. I told her she'd want to use pocket screws to fasten lumber that thin, as it would probably split if driving nails or screws into the end. So I got out the pocket hole jig, drill, driver, and a pack of screws and went about teaching her how to use it.

She drilled all but the first two pocket holes and, with a little help from me pushing on the back of the driver (she's just not strong enough to keep pressure on the screw to prevent the bit from slipping), she screwed her chair together.

Throughout the whole process, I thought this build would be more about father/daughter time and less about the finished product, but I was so pleased with how the chair turned out that I really saw it as something worth keeping! Being seven years old, she doesn't understand bracing (or how two pocket screws aren't nearly sufficient to keep a chair leg from wobbling and eventual dumping the occupant), so I cut four more scraps of one-by material (she got a new bed frame recently, and I repurposed some of her old frame) and taught her about bracing at an angle for rigidity. She screwed the braces on, and then the two of us went on tour, showing Mommy and her brother her successful project. She was pretty proud:

2020-03-29+chair+1.jpg

2020-03-29+chair+2.jpg
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

GT;
Great thread, just wasted most of the morning skimming through it!:bounce:

Very Nice build!:bowdown:

I'm getting ready to start a 20x40 metal building shop here in Alabama. On a slab, 2.5" closed cell spray foam in the walls, 5" in the ceiling. Insulated windows, doors and garage door. Should be pretty well sealed. Thanks for the info on HRV/ERVs. I think one needs to go in my shop as it's going to be conditioned by a mini split. I'll have to check if they have one that is built in.

We lived in Tumwater for 16 yrs before a job change brought us here. Pretty inexpensive cost of living. However my wife is a native Washatonian. So if she wants to move back, we'll be moving. In the meantime, there's a shop to build!:thumbup: Thread starting soon.

Jagmandave:
GLAD I'm not alone. LOL

Thanks for checking it out!

I don't think there's such thing as a mini-split that includes an HRV/ERV. In fact, the mini-split makes the ERV more difficult, as there's no existing ducting to work with. So you'd have the added expense of installing the ERV ducting. A single supply and single return is fine for ventilation, but you'd want them at opposite ends of the shop. I'd put the supply near the mini-split inside unit and the return at the opposite end of the shop, down low. For just regular building ventilation, you could get away with a pretty small ERV (looking at this map from Emmerson Swan, looks like you'd want an ERV in your region). This guy right here would work just fine for basic ventilation for your space. Ideally, you'd just wire it to your light switch so that it's always on when the doors are closed and you're inside.

If you want something that can do double duty as both basic building ventilation and ventilation for high-stink shop tasks, the more cfm the better, but cost goes up dramatically (ERV+ducting+control scheme). Really, I may have been overthinking things with my system, and I might have been better off installing a simple 4" supply and return to a much smaller HRV, wired to the light switches, and then a separate ducting system to a much higher cfm exhaust system for shop work. I'm limited to under 300 cfm with my current 6" ducting, which is both super overkill for basic building ventilation and completely insufficient to keep up with, say, painting or running an engine or whatnot in the shop. We'll see how it goes.
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

Another cool addition to the shop came the day of the party, when Andrew brought me another of his metal birds. He likes to take found metal and weld it together into birds--all kinds of birds, and sizes from shoe box to nearly four feet tall. As a trail builder and mountain bike enthusiast, he seems to gravitate toward shovel heads and bicycle parts for his main source of birdery. This one is based off a shovel blade, with wheel spoke feathers and (I believe) a derailleur for a head. The legs were a work light clamp, so the feet can squeeze and grip surfaces for mounting:

2020-03-29+bird+1.jpg

2020-03-29+bird+2.jpg

I'm going to find a permanent home for this one inside the shop. I've had another one for some time that will find a home perched above one of the knee braces on the front of the shop once I have them built and installed.
 

Bob Heine

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

Congratulations Tom! I believe we have a future Garage Journal member all lined up. Is she interested in making a chair for an overweight old man? Nothing fancy but it would be nice if it had an arm on the right side.
 

Pressingonward

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

That is an awesome chair and a great project for a kid to learn on :)
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

When she builds Bob's chair make sure she includes a safety belt:lol_hitti

Only knowing Bob from his build thread and posts here, I'm thinking a five-point harness would be more appropriate!...

Congratulations Tom! I believe we have a future Garage Journal member all lined up. Is she interested in making a chair for an overweight old man? Nothing fancy but it would be nice if it had an arm on the right side.

I think if I asked her to build such a chair, she'd say, "All right."

rimshot.gif


That is an awesome chair and a great project for a kid to learn on :)

I'm glad you guys like the chair as much as I do, but I think I'm not going to tell her about all this praise she's getting. Last time she had an idea for a business venture, it was after receiving probably a bit too much encouragement when it comes to her artwork. We had a big BBQ at the house, and she soaked every single one of my friends who came over for a few dollars by putting together an impromptu "art show" featuring crayon and watercolor masterpieces that she spent a couple hours (tops) making that morning. I like to think that she's clever/evil enough to conclude that all of the adults there would HAVE to buy her work out of guilt.

Long story short: If you see a news report about an eight year old girl making a killing selling $9,000 chairs made out of moldy scrap lumber, I swear that's not my daughter!...
 
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BORING HOP YARD

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Boring Oregon
Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

The chair build came out great and such a " I remember when Dad and I built the chair" future memory for both of you. As a father of two Daughters I can tell you in today's world kids need all the self confidents they can muster. Glad to see you use it as a teach point with your Daughter. Nice work Dad!
I like Andrews bird.
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

The chair build came out great and such a " I remember when Dad and I built the chair" future memory for both of you. As a father of two Daughters I can tell you in today's world kids need all the self confidents they can muster. Glad to see you use it as a teach point with your Daughter. Nice work Dad!
I like Andrews bird.

If somehow the universe hates me and this shop burns down as well, the only thing I'd risk running in to save would be that chair. Once I get my air set up in the shop and have blasting capability, I plan to blast all the grime off of it and epoxy/varnish it to preserve it. That chair is going to be a gift I give back to her some day down the road, long after she's forgotten about it.
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

Speaking of getting air to the shop, for several months, I've faced the conundrum of having my dream compressor pump and everything to get it running except a trustworthy receiver. Well, I recently found one.

It's a bittersweet story, as my new receiver came to me via picking the carcass of a dead friend--figuratively speaking! There is a local motorcycle dealership that is partly responsible for getting me back into track riding after a five year absence. I learned of their bus ride program, and it was enough to push me back over the edge.

The owner of the dealership loves track days, but he hated getting up and driving down in the morning and hated driving home after. His solution was to hire somebody else to drive himself, his bikes, and his gear down and back so he could take a nap in the morning and have a few cold ones on the way home. It would only become cost effective by inviting a lot of friends along, so the track day bus program was created: For a very small fee (less than the cost of gas to get to the track and back), riders could drop their bikes off at the dealership and they'd be loaded onto a semi trailer and hauled down. A charter bus picked everyone up at the dealership the morning of and dropped everyone back off afterward. Brilliant!

As a result of riding this bus down to the track for several years, I became friends with the owner and many of the other awesome men and women who worked there. It's hard not to when you're on a three-hour bus ride home, sharing beers and war stories!

Sadly (for me and many of the employees, but I'm really happy for the three co-owners), the owners decided to retire a few months ago, and the dealership closed. Beforehand, though... "Everything must go!" I stopped by after work one day, mostly to say goodbye (sort of; I'll still see them at the track) and drop off a couple growlers of leftover beer from the party, but also to pick through what was left and buy a thing or two to support my favorite shop on their way out.

It was an awesome flea market atmosphere, and it ended up taking three visits to fully pick through all the random bins of parts and sundries. I bought enough oil to last four seasons, some random bits and bobs for Andrew's project bikes, several branded shop shirts that Mrs. GeddyT says must stay in the shop due to the authentic repair bay smell... The big news, though, was the compressor. I asked my buddy José if they happened to have a big air compressor receiver they were looking to part with. He told me he could do one better and took me around back:

2020-03-29+IR+1.jpg


2020-03-29+IR+2.jpg


After nearly killing myself getting that thing out of the bed of my truck, that bad boy now sits in my shop, awaiting disassembly and cleaning. Ingersoll-Rand T30 pump, 7.5 hp single-phase motor, and--most importantly--a vertical receiver that'll do just fine under my Quincy! All for $400. The plan for now is to pull the pump, motor, starter, and pressure switch, clean them all up, refresh the pump, and sell it all on, hopefully at least breaking even on the whole thing. Checking eBay, I could profit quite a bit if I were willing to go through the hassle of parting the thing out.

I need another project like I need a third kid, so anybody want a T30 pump? Or trade the whole thing for a receiver that's in good shape? José said the pump needs rebuilt, but it was supplying air to their shop just fine when I bought it (I had to wait a week to pick it up because they were still using it).

Anyway, it's still sitting right there like that, as I haven't had any time to work on it--or anything!--lately.
 

Gentleman Adventurer

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

2020-03-29+chair+1.jpg

1st of all< Great Job Emma (and dad) on the chair. She WILL appreciate it some day.

For just regular building ventilation, you could get away with a pretty small ERV (looking at this map from Emmerson Swan, looks like you'd want an ERV in your region). This guy right here would work just fine for basic ventilation for your space. Ideally, you'd just wire it to your light switch so that it's always on when the doors are closed and you're inside.

GT Thanks for the link and installation ideas. It wasn't something I had thought about. I am planning a portable/temporary style paint booth and was working on an exhaust system, now I have a whole new rabbit trail! :beer:

Congrats on the new compressor project. LOL
 

C_F

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

<snip>...and taught her about bracing at an angle for rigidity. She screwed the braces on, and then the two of us went on tour, showing Mommy and her brother her successful project. She was pretty proud:

2020-03-29+chair+1.jpg
That's really great that your daughter had such a vision of what she wanted to build. That apple didn't fall far from the tree, keep a watch on her. Your son also fell from that same tree, but hit different branches on the way down...he definitely has that "need for speed" engrained into him, much like his Dad. I can relate to that need myself :bounce:

Another cool addition to the shop came the day of the party, when Andrew brought me another of his metal birds.

That kinda reminds me of a metal biker dude that my youngest brother gave me a few years ago...
tfxyjDDt.jpg

Q7HyjDDt.jpg


It sat on top of my entertainment center for 5~6 years, gathering cobwebs. Then I found a local guy here on GJ who was interested in selling a "grinder stand"...only, it was kinda tall for a grinder. BUT it was the perfect height for a display stand for a certain metal bike. I dragged it into my living room 2.5 years ago...13 months ago, my very understanding lady love moved in..I have a feeling it's days are numbered. :wtf:
Z1YHmnDt.jpg

As a result of riding this bus down to the track for several years, I became friends with the owner and many of the other awesome men and women who worked there. It's hard not to when you're on a three-hour bus ride home, sharing beers and war stories!

Sadly (for me and many of the employees, but I'm really happy for the three co-owners), the owners decided to retire a few months ago, and the dealership closed. Beforehand, though... "Everything must go!" I stopped by after work one day, mostly to say goodbye (sort of; I'll still see them at the track) and drop off a couple growlers of leftover beer from the party, but also to pick through what was left and buy a thing or two to support my favorite shop on their way out.

It was an awesome flea market atmosphere, and it ended up taking three visits to fully pick through all the random bins of parts and sundries. I bought enough oil to last four seasons, some random bits and bobs for Andrew's project bikes, several branded shop shirts that Mrs. GeddyT says must stay in the shop due to the authentic repair bay smell

Haha, I can relate to that smell! And like WHAT is wrong with that?!? :D
 
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Jim'bo

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

I just agreed with a local craigslist seller on the purchase of my fist milling machine.
considering the pictures you've shared of your hand, mostly after sticking it into rotating bits, we can't be certain that was a typo :eyecrazy:
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

GT Thanks for the link and installation ideas. It wasn't something I had thought about. I am planning a portable/temporary style paint booth and was working on an exhaust system, now I have a whole new rabbit trail! :beer:

If it's something you hadn't thought about, it's possibly because it's not something you need. Seeing you're in Texas, I'm betting heating isn't your biggest concern... Energy recovery ventilators are only useful (read: pay for themselves) in one very specific circumstance: Buildings that are kept tight for the purpose of maintaining conditioned space. So if you spend money air conditioning your shop, keep it tight for that purpose, and don't want to waste money by opening doors and windows and letting all that cool air out to ventilate, that's where an ERV comes into play. That being said, you're talking about a VERY big (and expensive) ERV to deal with ridding the shop of paint fumes. I painted a couple of rocker panels in January, and I gave up and rolled up the door. Shop smelled toxic for days.

It's pretty simple to do the math and determine if ANY ventilation system (from simple fan to more complicated heat exchanger) meets your needs: length x width x ceiling height, compare that to cfm of air mover, and determine how many air exchanges happen per hour. I believe the rule of thumb is .35 air changes per hour for standard ventilation. For removing toxic gas, that number should be WAY higher. A 300 cfm fan would take about an hour to change all the air out in a 30x40x12 shop. Definitely keep that respirator on...

Your son also fell from that same tree, but hit different branches on the way down...he definitely has that "need for speed" engrained into him, much like his Dad. I can relate to that need myself :bounce:

I'd say he mostly has a "need for video games" lately...

That kinda reminds me of a metal biker dude that my youngest brother gave me a few years ago...
tfxyjDDt.jpg

Q7HyjDDt.jpg

Z1YHmnDt.jpg

Now THAT is seriously awesome! It's so well done that it looks like a casting. What did he use for metal, and is it welded together? Also, I really like that grinder stand that it's on. We have a lot of steel brackets like that laying around at work, and I might steal that idea someday.

considering the pictures you've shared of your hand, mostly after sticking it into rotating bits, we can't be certain that was a typo :eyecrazy:

Rest assured, my hand made a full recovery. My ego? Still in intensive care. Definitely made the top-10,000 dumbest things I've ever done list!
 

Unruh

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

I'm glad you guys like the chair as much as I do, but I think I'm not going to tell her about all this praise she's getting. Last time she had an idea for a business venture, it was after receiving probably a bit too much encouragement when it comes to her artwork. We had a big BBQ at the house, and she soaked every single one of my friends who came over for a few dollars by putting together an impromptu "art show" featuring crayon and watercolor masterpieces that she spent a couple hours (tops) making that morning. I like to think that she's clever/evil enough to conclude that all of the adults there would HAVE to buy her work out of guilt.

Long story short: If you see a news report about an eight year old girl making a killing selling $9,000 chairs made out of moldy scrap lumber, I swear that's not my daughter!...

OMG! My daughter did the same thing. She hung up pictures all along the hallway and in her room, all about 3-4 foot high! Thanks for sharing and great work on that chair. Great memories!
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

As an aside [the A key on this keyboard at work only functions about a fourth of the times I press it, so I chose the wrong three words to start a post off with...], I'm relatively lucky when it comes to this crazy virus and resultant global catastrophe. I work in an industry with both deep pockets and a need to stay running (for now), so I still have my job and should continue to be paid as normal for the foreseeable future. My wife's photography business went from pretty impressive acceleration to dead in the water, but we'll be fine for now on my income. I can only imagine what millions of others are facing right now, with levels of uncertainty that dwarf even the 2008 collapse. I know this isn't worth much to anybody, but I hope all of you are doing well through this uncertain and strange time. Life has never been fair, and this virus is rubbing that fact in all of our faces.

I say all of this because while I've been "inconvenienced" by this pandemic to date, many have truly suffered. So please understand that I am very aware of that reality when I complain about working from home, which I'll do right about now:

Working from home *****! I thought I was going to get caught up on so many projects while also keeping up with my work responsibilities, but that hasn't even come close to happening. I neglected to take into account that the same quarantine that's keeping me working from home (well, about half the time--which seems freaking pointless, but that's another discussion...) also is keeping the kids home. So it's gotten harder to get things done, not easier.

The biggest challenge is the homeschooling. I've developed a lot of respect for elementary school teachers--and that's coming from a starting point of already having a LOT of respect for that profession. I think the task of keeping the kids learning at home is made even more difficult by the lack of a frame of reference for what they should be studying. Nobody dropped lesson plans in our laps. So when Mrs. GeddyT says, "Today you're teaching science and math," that's a little vague!

Last week, I put the shop's tall ceiling to good use for the day's science and math lesson. I zip-tied a tape measure to the ceiling, pulled the tape down to the floor and taped it down, and then had the kids climb a 10' stepladder next to the tape measure, hold a tennis ball out at exactly 10' high, then filmed the ball dropping at 120 fps. Then, just for fun, we drug a trampoline in front of the tape measure, and we filmed the kids jumping in front.

Bringing that footage into Premiere, we could scrub through frame by frame and plot a graph of height x time after releasing the ball or bouncing off the trampoline. The lesson was about the concept of acceleration, how gravity is acceleration, and demonstrating the power of graphing data. A good lesson for a second and a third grader? How the hell am I supposed to know!? It was fun, though:

2020-03-29+science.jpg


With both my day job and elementary school teaching second job done for the evenings, I spent some time to finally clean up the shop from the party nearly two months ago. Although I'm getting way less free time in the shop than I thought I was going to get on my work from home days, I wanted it to at least be ready to be shop when the need arose. It took a few days of poking at it, but I eventually got it cleaned up and put together this panorama shot. No idea how this is going to show up in GJ, but there it is:

shop+panorama+small.jpg


The kiddie pool is there so I can pluck the pump and motor off the IR compressor and give them a good scrubbing. I think the receiver is filthy enough that I'll just wheel it outside once it sheds the weight of the other components and give it a "car wash."

With the shop clean, Mrs. GeddyT and I enjoyed a game of darts. We're not very good...

2020-03-29+darts.jpg
 

ilya

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Messages
108
Location
Santa Monica, CA
Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

A word of caution on the lack of a splashguard on your lathe. I have an identical 9x20 Grizzly and I had initially installed it close to the wall of my shop without a splashguard. After one parting operation I now have a nice splatter pattern on my white wall of pink droplets of Motorex 10W60 that I was using as a lubricant.
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

OMG! My daughter did the same thing. She hung up pictures all along the hallway and in her room, all about 3-4 foot high! Thanks for sharing and great work on that chair. Great memories!

Did she also tape price tags on each piece and guilt your friends into buying them?

A word of caution on the lack of a splashguard on your lathe. I have an identical 9x20 Grizzly and I had initially installed it close to the wall of my shop without a splashguard. After one parting operation I now have a nice splatter pattern on my white wall of pink droplets of Motorex 10W60 that I was using as a lubricant.

Thanks for the tip! I actually removed the splash guard to make it slightly lighter and easier to haul back up the stairs, and I've been too lazy to put it back on. I actually stared at it, laying on the basement floor, the other day, thinking, "I should mount that back on."

Then lazy me answered, "Yeah, but not now..."

But I'm burying the lede here: you can part on your G4000!? I'm on my fourth parting blade and second drive belt, personally...
 

ilya

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Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
108
Location
Santa Monica, CA
Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

But I'm burying the lede here: you can part on your G4000!? I'm on my fourth parting blade and second drive belt, personally...

I'm a very inexperienced home machinist, I mainly turn sleeves and bushings out of aluminum and mild steel. I've had reasonable success parting off on the G4000 by doing the following:
1) Slow down the RPM
2) Hone the cutting edge of the parting blade with a diamond file before every use
3) Set the cutting edge of the parting blade on center (I put a dead center into headstock spindle and eyeball the alignment of the parting blade's cutting edge to the tip)
4) Set the parting blade perpendicular to the work by touching it to the face of the chuck.
5) Part reasonably close to the chuck
6) Don't stop feeding the parting blade into the work no matter what
7) Use plenty of lube.
 

wasfast

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Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
874
Location
San Diego CA
Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

The panorama works great. This has become my favorite thread here recently. No dull moments to be found!
 

C_F

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Utah...SNOW BLOWS!
Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

Now THAT is seriously awesome! It's so well done that it looks like a casting. What did he use for metal, and is it welded together? Also, I really like that grinder stand that it's on. We have a lot of steel brackets like that laying around at work, and I might steal that idea someday.

My brother didn't actually make it, he found in some store while on vacation somewhere, bought it & gave it to me for my B-day about a decade ago. It's made mostly of tin, washers, nuts, springs & metal rods, in various diameters. The long portion of the forks are solid metal rods, and everything is welded together.
For 6~7 years, I just kept it in a glass cabinet, until I ran across a local GJer who wanted to sell the stand. I knew exactly what I wanted to do with the stand!
I was told the metal feet on the stand were outrigger pads from an old crane or similar, to keep it stationary. There are three 2x6's that they slip over. It probably weighs about 140lbs.
One more shot from the rear...
2XQyjDDt.jpg
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

The panorama works great. This has become my favorite thread here recently. No dull moments to be found!

Thanks! The un-dull moments continued yesterday as well, but I have to be honest that I hesitated to post about them after a talk with my wife and spending a lot of time today watching coronavirus reports. I have to admit that I haven't been taking social distancing too seriously, as I didn't truly understand the implications. As a result, I spent all day yesterday with Joey and a couple coworkers and, for the earlier part of the afternoon, with the seller of my new-to-me mill, loading it up and setting it down in the shop.

My logic has been that I'm an essential employee at a facility where I have to work in close contact with dozens of coworkers who have to work with dozens of coworkers, etc. I've had a fatalistic attitude toward the whole thing from the beginning: Either I quit my job or accept that I'm going to get the virus, so any quarantine for me that extends to those I have to work in close proximity to anyway is pointless. I've been careful about avoiding public places or anybody outside my work circle and have felt pretty good about that compromise, but I've since been put in my place. Shockingly, Mrs. GeddyT didn't seem to care one iota bout me buying a new tool while teetering on the brink of financial uncertainly, but booooooy did she care that I had to be within six feet of other people to do it!

So the pictures I'm about to post are strange for me because I'm CRAZY excited about it yet simultaneously embarrassed and feeling guilty about being out doing this in these times. What's done is done at this point, though, so...

Loading my new mill onto the trailer:

2020-03-31+mill+0.jpg

Early '70s Dufour Type 61 Universal Mill. 3500 lbs., NMTB 40 spindle, horizontal/vertical, gear-driven power feed in all three axes. How this machine even came on my radar is a bit of a windy road: I've been wanting to learn how to weld and start practicing, and a really good deal on a turn-key starter package was for sale at the same motorcycle dealership liquidation where I bought the second compressor. Pretty new looking Syncrowave 200 with full argon bottle, hood, lots of consumables, cart, etc. for what seemed like a reasonable price. I gave it serious thought, but before I went ahead with the purchase, I decided to look for a mill first: I know people who can weld stuff up for me, but I don't know anybody with a mill! If I could get a decent mill for similar money, I could hold off on learning to weld and have a more complete collection of capabilities in the meantime.

I kicked the tires on the welder long enough that this mill popped up on craigslist. I didn't think I'd want it, as I've never done horizontal milling before, and I didn't like that it lacks a quill for drilling (table feed only). I gave it a chance, though, and went and took a look. Started making arrangements to pick it up nearly on the spot. Spindle is nearly silent, power feeds are smooth and quiet in all axes, and the machine is built like a brick *********. There are a couple of missing parts and quirks, but nothing I can't fix.

I chose Monday for pickup, as it was my next business day off, I could arrange to borrow a trailer, and I would be able to get cash at the bank drive-through. Myself and two buddies from work pulled up with the trailer at 1:30, and we didn't leave with the mill until over two hours later. Had to clear more room to back the trailer in, hoist the mill up, and set it down. If I had permission, I'd have taken and posted more pics of the PO's shop, as it was chock full o' awesome tools and machines to support his hobby farm.

For unloading, I traded one of my coworkers for Joey, a come-along, and a one-ton chainfall. After going back and forth a half dozen times with figuring how to get the thing to the back of the trailer and off, the consensus ended up being slowly lowering it down ramps with the chainfall and letting gravity do the work. It was not without a few precarious moments, and my buddy Dillen may or may not have pooped his pants once when the mill, uh, "eased" down from the last roller and onto the ramps...

2020-03-31+mill+1.jpg

2020-03-31+mill+2.jpg

2020-03-31+mill+3.jpg

We were feeling pretty smug about our machine rigging prowess when the machine reached the bottom of the ramp... and we had no idea what to do next. The aft end of the base was digging into the lumber we set down to protect the floor, and the angle of the floor relative to that of the ramp meant the steel pipe rollers under the base were now useless. Probably should have thought of that... Here's how the "team" problem-solved this scenario:

Tom: "Alright, here's what we do: I pick up the back of the ramp with the 4000 pound engine hoist, one of you pulls the truck out of the way, then I gently lower it until the ramp is flat on the ground, nearly leveling out the machine."

Dillen: "Great idea!"

Joey: "Uh... wouldn't the ramp just come down on top of the base of the hoist?..."

Tom and Dillen: "Oh. Yeah..."

Tom: "Well, maybe I can just bring the hoist around back and 'grab the machine by the scruff of its neck,' picking the back up enough to where we can get the rollers back under it."

Dillen: "Nah, the first plan will work. Just get it as low as we can, and we'll figure out what to do next once we get there."

Tom: "Sounds good to me."

So that's what we did, moving the truck and trailer clear, and--veeeeery slowly--lowering the back end of the ramp toward the floor.

Want to know how loud it is when over 3000 pounds of cast iron and steel crashes down a few inches onto a concrete slab when the 2x4s that the base of the machine is resting on slide forward on the slick floor and very suddenly bring the machine level and then right off the ramp?

Loud enough that all of the Rockwool insulation in the walls wasn't enough to prevent Mrs. GeddyT from hearing the crash all the way in the house and thinking my life insurance policy was finally going to pay off!

The machine seemed fine, but I was awfully worried about my slab. Good news: Not a single crack! The polyurea sealant definitely has some miles on it now, though...

But it was on the ground at least, so all that was left was to jack it up enough to get the rollers back under it and push it into place, which would require about a 270 degree right turn and a 90 degree left turn. Did we drop it off the rollers once or twice? I'm going to plead the fifth. Eventually, though, we got it into place, put the leveling feet on, and used those to remove the roller pipes.

And while my son Archer couldn't get enough of playing with the giant awesome machine...

2020-03-31+mill+5.jpg

...Joey carried in the vertical head:

2020-03-31+mill+6.jpg

While setting it down, he made a pretty good observation: "You might not want to mount this up until you clean it out."

He was absolutely right, and I quickly pulled all of this...

2020-03-31+mill+8.jpg

...out of here:

2020-03-31+mill+7.jpg

I think it's definitely a good idea to do a little disassembly and cleaning of this machine before I put it to use, which means yet another project that I have no time for. Which is too bad, because Archer's itching to try it:

2020-03-31+mill+9.jpg

2020-03-31+mill+10.jpg

Finishing up at well past 7:00 in the evening, I had learned yet another lesson: Just rent a forklift.
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

Coronavirus, Week 3. Things are officially going off the rails...

Swing.gif

Swing_2.gif


Swing_3.gif

In other news, out in the shop, I found that a puddle of oil has appeared beneath the mill's vertical head:

2020-04-02+puddle.jpg

This discovery has really driven home that I have no idea how this thing is put together or what I need to do to keep it running properly. Oil in the vertical head is news to me, so I should probably figure out how to check for and fill/dump said oil and figure out how often I should do so. I think I'm going to need to track down an owner's manual for this thing, but everything I can find is either in French or is somebody online ripping people off for $150 for unauthorized copies. I may have to just bit the bullet.
 

Pressingonward

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Mar 9, 2016
Messages
522
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SW WA
Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

Congratulations on the new mill! Glad you got it home safely. Looks like a good size for a home shop.

Are you planning on a rotary phase converter for it? I'm assuming it's 3 phase.

OWWM's metalworking forum is a good resource for older machines like yours (as long as they're not Asian, but it sounds like yours is French?). There's a couple threads on there about horizontal mills that would probably be helpful in familiarizing yourself with them, although they are different brands.

http://www.owwm.org/viewforum.php?f=79

It does look like a minor cleanup/refresh is a good idea before making chips. I recommend putting up some shields or curtains to help contain the mess. Otherwise cleanup becomes a real pain...
 

mybigwarwagon

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Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
4,428
Location
Vale, Nc
Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

In other news, out in the shop, I found that a puddle of oil has appeared beneath the mill's vertical head:

2020-04-02+puddle.jpg

The first rule of knowing things is: you never know what you don't know til you learn you don't know it.
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

Here's a possible source in England for that Dufour Model 61 manual:

https://store.lathes.co.uk/print/md300c-0

Thanks! That's the exact manual I've been looking at, and cheapest by a mile, but I'm not sure how shipping from England would go these days. I'm going to save this link and treat it as a last resort if necessary.

Congratulations on the new mill! Glad you got it home safely. Looks like a good size for a home shop.

Are you planning on a rotary phase converter for it? I'm assuming it's 3 phase.

OWWM's metalworking forum is a good resource for older machines like yours (as long as they're not Asian, but it sounds like yours is French?). There's a couple threads on there about horizontal mills that would probably be helpful in familiarizing yourself with them, although they are different brands.

http://www.owwm.org/viewforum.php?f=79

It does look like a minor cleanup/refresh is a good idea before making chips. I recommend putting up some shields or curtains to help contain the mess. Otherwise cleanup becomes a real pain...

Lot of good information here! The mill currently has a single phase 3 hp GE motor on it, so it's ready to rock and was under power when I looked at it. The downside to this is that the rapid motor hasn't been changed yet, so it'll lack rapids until I pick up a single phase motor to fit there and figure out how to wire it up. It's useful enough to have that I think that'll be the third project I pursue on the machine.

First project will be taking it apart as little as necessary to get it thoroughly cleaned, clean it all up, and get it running. Second project will be to address the only other thing missing from it as it sits: One of the horizontal milling overarm support bars is missing, so I'll have to make one by getting somebody to turn down some steel to the right diameter and then putting it on the mill to cut the pinion gear teeth.

As for the curtain, that's something I hadn't planned on at all but, now that you mention it, is something I'm absolutely going to have to have. Thanks!

The first rule of knowing things is: you never know what you don't know til you learn you don't know it.

Ain't that the truth!
 

mybigwarwagon

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Nov 4, 2009
Messages
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Location
Vale, Nc
Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

Watching the dog just makes me laugh!! :bounce:

I have one that would sit there like that, one that would try to ride, and one that would be trying to pull them off.
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

Watching the dog just makes me laugh!! :bounce:

I have one that would sit there like that, one that would try to ride, and one that would be trying to pull them off.

I have two dogs that look nearly identical but are polar opposites from a personality standpoint. The old dog is 12 years old, starting to have trouble getting up onto the bed, and is as old and cranky as they come when it comes to everyone but my wife and I. She sees the kids as competition and therefore hates them. She's also the smartest dog I've ever encountered in my life. There is NO WAY should would have taken one second of what was going on in that clip without throwing a fit and maybe yanking a kid off their swing.

The puppy in that clip? Same breed, but perhaps the dumbest dog I have ever seen. Here's an exact reenactment of me trying to toss a treat at this puppy:

dumb+dog.gif


It doesn't surprise me in the least that she just lets the kids bludgeon her without hardly noticing.
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

One of the minor side effects of this pandemic is that it's turned me into a hypochondriac. Every time I have a sniffle, "Is this COVID?" Every time my throat is sore, "Do I have coronavirus?" Every time I drink six beers by myself in one night, "Am I an alcoholic?"

Nah...

Lucky for me, local breweries and bottle shops are coming to the rescue in this time of need. I figure I'm stocked up for at least another week of not leaving the house:

2020-04-04+beer+cavalry.jpg


Having taken care of the important stuff, I turned my attention to getting this mill cleaned up and running. First step was hoisting the universal head (no way this thing is less than 200 pounds) into the kiddie pool for some deep cleaning:

2020-04-04+vertical+head+1.jpg


With all of the grease/metal-chip paste cleaned out, I re-greased the gear train, exhausted myself putting everything back together, and slung it up to hoist up on the machine:

2020-04-04+vertical+head+2.jpg


The problem with engine hoists is that the feet are too close together to wrap around just about anything, so I was expecting to come up short. And did. I'm not the "selfie" type, so what's going to be missing from this post is a picture of me absolutely destroying my lower back by standing on the mill table and lifting the universal head the rest of the way onto the dovetails. Only after doing so did necessity become the mother of invention and suggest to me that I just use the mill's table to do the lifting:

2020-04-04+vertical+head+3.jpg


REALLY wish I would have remembered this trick before wrecking my back...

But the mill is back together now:

2020-04-04+vertical+head+4.jpg


All that's left is getting it wired up, but I hit a bit snag there, too. The cord coming out of the machine has a black, white, and green wire, but that's a bit weird for single phase 240. I need to verify how the motor is wired up, but it looks like that'll take unbolting it and sliding it over to make room to get at the screws over the wiring compartment, so we'll see if my back allows me to make it out there and do that tomorrow.

In other news, I owe another member here, Sakurama, a big thanks for tipping me off to Google Translate in one of his new YouTube videos! I had no idea how amazing this is, but it really came in handy today, as the only manuals I can find for this machine are in French. My phone did a good enough job of translating it to tell me what oils and greases I need to buy to get the thing up and running and replace that puddle of melted grease that poured out of the vertical spindle when it was laying on the floor upside down.

What's going a little bit slower is getting the machine tooled up to actually start cutting. I've never owned a mill before, and the last time I operated one was two decades ago in college, so "shaky" is a gentle way of describing by familiarity with CAT40 holders and tooling. I have an email in to MariTool that begs them to just tell me everything I need. We'll see how that goes.
 

larry_g

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Apr 28, 2007
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16,858
Location
oregon
Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

View media item 88948
I to am the proud owner of a Dufour, which has been translated to me as "the Flower". If memory is correct mine is a model 51 and it is a bit different that yours. Check your spindle taper, it might be an NMTB 40 which is a bit different than CAT 40. I've read that CAT 40 may work but cannot confirm it. You can see some other pictures of it in my build thread below.

ON edit, Looking a bit closer at your machine it is quite a bit different than mine. Especially in the vertical head drive and mount. I can see where your mount is better in that if gives a lot more room between the spindle and the table. I've run into height issues with mine. I would also have you pay close attention to changing out the rapids motor. There are some control issues you will have to overcome to make it work correctly.

Me personally I went with a rotary converter and have not looked back. The rotary has allowed me to have 1/2 a dozen 3 phase machines without modifying or VFD'ing them all. Of course when I started this many years ago VFD's were not as available as they are now. So if you are thinking more industrial machines consider the choices.

lg
no neat sig line
 
Last edited:

BORING HOP YARD

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Jan 13, 2007
Messages
1,098
Location
Boring Oregon
Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

Very nice beer selection!
I converted a 3 phase 1945 Cincinnati toolmaster using a VFD. Have you looked at your draw bar to see how your mill will secure the cutter, Both the CAT 40 and the NMTB 40 have the same taper but are not the same at the top. Here is a site I use that helps me.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...anuals-also-englisch-231022/?highlight=Dufour

You may have seen it, lots of good machinist on the site.
"Thinking out of the box"


I prefer a VFD since it bypasses all of the 1945 wiring and components on my mill. I use the stock off and on switch to give input to the VFD.
Good luck, cant wait to see the chips fly.
 
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GeddyT

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Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

View media item 88948
I to am the proud owner of a Dufour, which has been translated to me as "the Flower". If memory is correct mine is a model 62 and it is a bit different that yours. Check your spindle taper, it might be an NMTB 40 which is a bit different than CAT 40. I've read that CAT 40 may work but cannot confirm it. You can see some other pictures of it in my build thread below.

Hi, new best friend! I'll be sending you a PM with some questions as soon as I'm done with this response.

As for NMTB40 vs. CAT40, the previous owner (or possibly even before that) has the machine setup with CAT40 holders and draw bar. The taper is the same, CAT and NMTB just have different threads, and NMTB has a little stub above the taper that contains most of the threads. Because of this stub, NMTB might not fit in a CAT socket, but a CAT holder will always fit in an NMTB socket, provided the proper drawbar is used. Usually, CAT40 has a pull stud that screws in, then the drawbar grabs the pull stud, but the way he was doing it was with a long drawbar that threads right into the top of the CAT40 holder.

The mill came with a pair of CAT40 collet holders that he was using, so I'm going to have to assume it all works. I like the idea of CAT40 tooling on this mill, as if I ever upgrade to a VMC down the road, I won't have to invest in all new tool holders. So I'm going to stick with CAT40 instead of going back to the native NMTB.

Very nice beer selection!
I converted a 3 phase 1945 Cincinnati toolmaster using a VFD. Have you looked at your draw bar to see how your mill will secure the cutter, Both the CAT 40 and the NMTB 40 have the same taper but are not the same at the top. Here is a site I use that helps me.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ghlight=Dufour

You may have seen it, lots of good machinist on the site.
"Thinking out of the box"

I prefer a VFD since it bypasses all of the 1945 wiring and components on my mill. I use the stock off and on switch to give input to the VFD.
Good luck, cant wait to see the chips fly.

Thanks for all the info! I've spent quite a lot of time on Practical Machinist--especially lately. That thread was a bit of a jackpot. Found a couple new French manuals that fill in a few gaps, but I still feel like an English manual is a must.

As for CAT/NMTB, adressed that above in my response to Larry. It came with a drawbar to secure CAT40 tooling, so I'll just stick with that.

And no need for a VFD, as at least two owners ago it was converted to a single phase drive motor. I need to verify the wiring, as the wire colors don't make sense, but that'll be quick, then I can get it wired up. The downside to the drive motor being single phase is that the rapids motor was not swapped over at the same time, so it's unwired and dead weight down there. Having raised the table all the way up and lowered it all the way down in the course of moving the mill and installing the universal head, I WANT that rapid motor, so I'll be seeking out a single phase solution and figuring out how to wire it up. Wiring diagram won't be of much help, as it's already been converted and therefore non-standard.

Now that the universal head has been cleaned and installed, the mill has the following things that need addressed if I want it to be perfect and fully functional:

1.) Need to find (impossible) or make a replacement for the missing overarm bar.
2.) Need to find a suitable single phase motor for the rapids and figure out how to wire it up.
3.) Coolant motor (and possibly pump; I haven't pulled the cover and looked) does not exist.
4.) Two of the oil/grease ports on the right side of the saddle are plugged. Need to get them unplugged, hopefully without having to remove the table, as a half hour of staring at it got me no closer at all to figuring out how the hell I'd go about doing such a thing.
5.) There are about 30 oil/grease fittings and two oil reservoirs on this machine, and I have no idea what goes in any of them and how often. I'm not going to so much as fire up the spindle until I get to the bottom of this. Translating French manuals has gotten me about a fourth of the way there on this front, but I'm not even remotely confident.
 

DeeDubz

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Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
1,427
Location
Socal
Re: From losing everything to being cash-poor and shop-rich in "only" five years!

Dang that was a long thread of high and low emotions! Good read though. Looks like everything worked out.
 
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