Snap On Repo Traded Tools?

[firebox40dash5]

So, the tools belong to the seller till it's paid off. Period.

Um... no.

That works OK on your buyer since they signed a contract with you stating as much. By works OK, I mean you have a legal leg to stand on, at least if the guy cooperates... but it almost certainly means nothing as far as getting the actual property back if not, since there's no lien on record (like on the deed to a house or title to a car) filed with the court. You could sue, and probably win, but you'd probably get an award of the goods "or like monetary compensation" or something like that. Same thing throws a wrench in getting anything from a 3rd party... there's no literal "title" to your goods, and the buyer paid for them in good faith. I'm sure there's some circumstance/locality where you could get a court judgement in your favor against someone besides your original buyer, but most likely you're fooked.

As for thread necromancer's question... just avoid the situation. I've bought and sold tools that had payments owed, just do it through the tool guy in question... "I'm buying X off so-and-so, take the balance off his account and put it on mine." Issue avoided, item changed hands, everyone happy.

 

[Snap_cap]

My Snap-On receipts include the following legal notification, which in part, includes this specific language:

"I agree that the Franchisee named above or its assigns shall retain a Purchase Money Security Interest in the PMSI Collateral until I have made all promised payments, at which time Franchisee's security interest shall be released. If I fail to make any of the payments specified, I agree to return the PMSI Collateral to the Franchisee or its assigns on demand. Until all payments are made, I agree to retain the PMSI Collateral in my possession in good condition and to notify the Franchisee of any changes in employment or home address. In the event that I fail to make the promised payments and the Franchisee must resort to civil litigation to obtain return of or payment for the PMSI Collateral, I shall be held responsible for the costs of such litigation including reasonable attorney's fees."


The enforce-ability of the legal clause would necessarily vary by state civil statute.

 

[Steinmetz]

"If Snap-on credit is involved, which they likely would be for a financed toolbox sale, trust me, you signed something that gives them the right to repossess. It's called a UCC agreement. Look it up, it's a secured loan.".

It took 24(?) posts before someone hit it. The rights of the creditor must be perfected by filing a UCC 1 with the state declaring a security interest in the property. Otherwise, all an unsecured creditor can do is sue on the unpaid debt.

 

[Mikeske]

Over 30 years ago when I was laid off from a airline I went and worked as automotive technician. Snap-on truck shows up every Wednesday and I buy one or two tools a week from him paying cash. One week I was short on money and needed a special tool, Snap-on dealer shows up and I explain that I needed a special tool that he has I would pay the next. He gives the tool and a IOU for the following week.

The following week he shows up and I pay up. I had a deal that I never would buy on credit and always cash and carry with NO credit. That way I earned the trust of the Snap-on dealer, the Matco dealer and Mac driver.

Once the Snap-on guy asked me why it was always cash and carry with me and I explain that it actually was a several reasons, One I hated credit and since I worked in aviation I had recall rights back to the airline and if he extended credit to me I was a poor risk as I would be moving on back into aviation. The other part is I actually preferred Bonney tools as they were more geared towards aviation.

I just avoided all the issues that the original post stated by being cash and carry, the other thing I never bought tools from co-workers as it also avoided the problems that happen if they were not paid for.

 

[toolenthusiast]

that guy now works out of a cardboard box. LOL

That's brutal LOL

 

[pfaustus]

A quick google gives an example of a case involving basically the same facts.

http://www.theindianalawyer.com/act...-fide-purchaser-defense-/PARAMS/article/24949

 

[jimindm]

I have had several SO dealers over the years. I have never bought though SO credit, but have carried some significant balances on the truck account. It seemed like for a long time, it had to be a larger purchase for them to want you to sign anything. Not so much anymore. If you are buying anything, over your weekly payment, you are signing the receipt.

The signature, pretty much is giving them the ability to get the product back. If it goes unpaid. So much of there product has serial numbers now. I would guess that on the corporate level, they have some kind of data base for unpaid goods. Either from their credit accounts, or even their franchisers.


I am not sure what some of you think. Why would SO need to hire a collection company, when the have thousands of franchisers around the nation? I am sure some their losses do end up in a place that a dealer will never go. But for the most part I would bet many end up at a different shop in a different area, maybe in a different city.

I would think their dealer network would recover a lot more than any collection company ever could. It would also give corporate an idea of value of the repoed tools. Who better could give that value than a dealer.

Speaking of that, I think one thing that has not been mentioned, is what they can repo. It is the balance they are owed. We all know there is diminished value in everything. A guy buys a toolbox and skips, when found two years later, that box is not worth the value owed. Meaning that the dealer or who ever takes more to make up the difference, if there is one. usually by going through the drawers and taking more stuff.

Really no difference that getting a car repoed. They sell the car, and give you back any proceeds that are left after satisfying the loan, or charging you the difference if it is less. Kind of like letting them repo a car that has a blown engine or been in an accident. It more than likely will not cover what is owed.

All in all. I think a person has to be diligent about buying stuff. To the OP, you maybe just fine, if you never include that piece in a trade or any business that you do with SO. If you do, it may then give them the ability to find it is indeed somebody else's, that did not pay for it. Good Luck.

 

[[email protected]]

the toolboxes have serial #s on them so they can be verified but hand tools do not so there is no way for the dealer to prove that they are the ones they sold.

Also im sure by law a dealer cant go into your tool box and go through your things to try to repo them. I worked with a guy who a dealer opened his box to see if he had some tools (someone else owed money on them) and he told the dealer that if he ever caught him looking through his stuff again there would be issuse. The dealer was going through everyones toolboxes looking.
That stunt got that dealer kicked out of the dealership and the other 10 that the owner owned.

 

[wafrederick]

An ex Snap On dealer down the road in my area had a problem repoing a Snap On Modis once.He is no longer a dealer because Snap On forced him out and it's not over yet although it happened 2 years ago.A customer of his bought it and made one payment on it.He died from working on cars that were from Russia that were not to be here,contaminated with radation.His family would not give it up and almost went to court over it.They did hand it back finally,Snap On Credit was involved with this.

 

[wafrederick]

Sorry I didn't read every post so this may have already been covered but I believe, technically, the box can't be repossessed from new owner unless SO had a security interest in it and had filed a lien on property before it had been sold to a third party. The original owner owes money on it not the box itself. If SO didn't have a lien on it at time it was sold their only recourse is to go against original buyer for the money he owed on it.

There was a car example in earlier thread. The reason a car can be repossessed if balance isn't paid is because the lender has lien against it and title can't be passed until the loan is paid off and buyer is released from title. I would think with the price of some SO boxes, SO credit may actually have valid liens filed against boxes bought on credit. I highly doubt they do that with normal hand tools (ratchets and such).

For a $500 balance, I doubt SO would take a third party to court over a box sold by original buyer before it was paid. It would cost more in legal fees than they would stand to recover. An individual SO dealer may have other ideas though. In any case if he doesn't have a valid lien against property in question, he wouldn't stand a chance in court. If he did have a lien though, he'd probably be able to recover the box.

With all that said, I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advise, just my personal opinion. My two cents...

The car thing,they have shut off boxes installed and this is with mostly buy here pay here places.If the person even misses the first payment,they shut the vehicle off.I know where they install them,under the dash near the steering column.My dad has bought repos this way.

 

[ttpete]

The car thing,they have shut off boxes installed and this is with mostly buy here pay here places.If the person even misses the first payment,they shut the vehicle off.I know where they install them,under the dash near the steering column.My dad has bought repos this way.

That's commonly done by used car dealers who carry their own paper and sell to people who can't get a regular loan because of bad credit. We had a dealer who used them when he sold cheap used cars to folks in the ghetto. Name was Mel Farr.

 

[SnapOnAddiction]

I've always wondered that if you get a few tools off the snap on truck and you don't pay it all off but you paid some or most if the driver could repo it all or just to the amount you owe ,but I guess some gets paid off little buy little. But what I'm saying you only got tools once.

Anyways I don't think he can repo **** but I asked my driver what he does to peoplein that situation he says he repos his sit even if he has to make a phone call to a couple guys haha, I kind of laughed inside.

My driver was a security guard for WWE before he was a snap on salesman but he is far from intimidating lol.

From my last bill and payment I owed him $20 he sent me a bill trying to say owed 200 lol I called him and said he's crazy and I have a print out to prove it.

I have to drive 30 miles to meet my guy I'm in 0 debt with him I paid my payments up months so I wouldn't have to meet him weekly his truck blows really it's bare and he didn't even order the box I wanted kept "forgetting" I think he's going under really he never ordered anything I wanted or had anything. Maybe he was in debt to snap on.

OP He can't take your tools you own them out right and they are not stolen he paid half so your tools are paid for as you only got a couple things he bought out of all of it. The dealer has to take the guy to court that's how it really works and the original purchaser has to turn over the cash or what tools he has plus cash but they can't pursue you it does not go into collections the snap on rep has to go to court or call it loss. Look up on Google all the court cases on snap on dealers vs. Offendants even dealers getting sued by snap on it even works the same against them lol. I learned the facts

 

[MRSTAEBLER]

I don't think so! You bought/traded for them, they belong to you and the debt belongs to the kid. The truck can only go after the boy for money owed. If the kid sold them on craigslist, it's the same deal.

thats not accurate. can you but or trade someone for their car they owe money on? or why not their house as well? if the property IS NOT PAID IN FULL, it is not theirs to sell or trade.

 

[M635_Guy]

Not sure why this old thread got bumped (there was a similar one in the last few weeks), but you can't sell what you don't own. My understanding from that thread is SO does secured loans - the tools have some sort of lien on them. I imagine it would be hard to track/enforce once they leave the hands of the original buyer, but whatever.

Ethically, I wouldn't buy something I even suspected the buyer didn't own free and clear (cars/houses have a whole process to make that a step during purchase of course).

 

[seber]

If a pawn shop takes in a stolen item, it can be repossessed by the police because the item still belongs to the original owner. A car can be repossessed because it still belongs to the bank. Tools from Snap-on are sold on credit without security. It is a straight up loan. The tools belong to the buyer and Snap-on only has the note. No repossession is legal here.

 

[M635_Guy]

Snap-on uses UCC liens which is common practice. The paperwork clearly states you're signing away all your rights to all your Snap-on tools (whether they were paid off or not) as collateral against the loan.

The tools in that transaction itself, or tools you've bought from Snap On in general?

If the latter, that's pretty crazy...

 

[eyeball]

A little off topic but...

I have never understood why any shop owner, supervisor, or foreman would allow a tool dealer or anyone else for that matter to rummage through the shop and a guys box to repo a tool while he is not there.

I would just tell that tool dealer to deal with it outside the yellow line (you know the no customers beyond the yellow line for insurance reasons yellow line) or take the guy to court. What ever the resolution, keep the drama out of my shop.

 

[lugnut71]

Around here it goes the other way, the shop owner usually looks out for the snap-on guy, Say an employee flakes out and quits or gets fired. The shop owner contacts the tool guy and lets him know before the tech disappears with said tools .

 

[BDT/NWMN]

Snap-on uses UCC liens which is common practice. The paperwork clearly states you're signing away all your rights to all your Snap-on tools (whether they were paid off or not) as collateral against the loan.

Yes.. I was laid up for six weeks with a back re-injury in 1984. That Snappy Dealer threatened to legally take ALL My Snap-on tools (including decade old tools) if My account wasn't brought up to date.. Being threatened with the red carpet repo service; I paid off that contract asap when I got back to work..

 

[Bigblockyeti]

A little off topic but...

I have never understood why any shop owner, supervisor, or foreman would allow a tool dealer or anyone else for that matter to rummage through the shop and a guys box to repo a tool while he is not there.

I would just tell that tool dealer to deal with it outside the yellow line (you know the no customers beyond the yellow line for insurance reasons yellow line) or take the guy to court. What ever the resolution, keep the drama out of my shop.

Yeah, that'd be fun as a shop owner when a dealer pricks himself on a tweaker's needle rummaging through said deadbeat tech's box (where the insurance co. has specifically said no one but employees are allowed). Who's picking up the tab for the dealer's HIV treatment and/or accidental death suit?

 

[Lucid Moments]

So I did consumer collections work for 20+ years. A lot of good information in this thread and a lot of wrong information in this thread. And the devil is going to be in the details.

All of my work has been in Georgia and what I am about to say applies specifically to Georgia, but most states are similar. Except Louisiana, they have some really weird laws.

Georgia has what is called self-help repossession laws. Where if you have a lien on a piece of equipment and the loan is in default you can just go get the equipment. And here is a key point. As long as you don't breach the peace in the process of repossession. And the courts have taken a very broad view as to what consists of breaching the peace. What it boils down to is if a debtor says you can't take the equipment. You can threaten, you can cajole, you can try to reason with them you can do a lot of things, but you can't just take it. In that happens the creditor can go to court and get a court order (called a writ of possession) and then go back with law enforcement and get the equipment. Of course that takes time and by then the equipment is usually gone. If the creditor takes the equipment over the objections of the debtor then that is called a breach of peace repossession and is a civil violation. I have never actually seen this happen but what I understand is that the debtor can file a claim with the court and the creditor will have to return the equipment and will also be liable for damages which are applied to the original debt.

UCC stands for the Uniform Commercial Code, and under that code the form UCC-1 is a valid way to perfect a security interest in non real property (real property is either titles, or is land). But UCC-1s generally have to state specifically the property securing the debt. So as has been mentioned in this thread a UCC-1 that listed all Snap-On tools is questionable. I would try to enforce that if I could, but I wouldn't count on it.

All of the above is about what is legal. Creditors routinely rely on debtors not knowing the law, and what options they have. I know I certainly did, and generally it is a pretty safe bet.

If a debtor sells or otherwise disposes of property that has a valid lien against it that in itself is a crime. I have never seen that crime successfully pursued and I have tried.

 

[liliysdad]

As a mac tool dealer long ago, most all deals were on me. If you signed the reciept it clearly says the tools are mine till they are paid off. Period. So even if traded,
the tool belongs to me. Just like recieving stolen property. I had to repocess tools from one guy. I showed up and he happened to not be there. So I notified the boss about the situation and took the tools. On my way home I get a call from the wife that the cops are looking for me for theft. So I call them up and say I'm coming to the police station. I get there and explain things and show them the reciept that clearly spells out things. Cop follows me to the shop and then proceeds to chew out the guy. Came close to arresting him for filing a false report. Anyway, the guy paid, I gave back the tools and never sold to him again. Course the owner did not like this and the guy was fired a few weeks later. Was good for me because the other guys always paid on time. So, the tools belong to the seller till it's paid off. Period.

That cop way overstepped his bounds.

No way in hell I would be getting myself involved in a civil issue like that. If I had been called to the scene, you would have left with no tools, and without an order from a judge, you wouldn't have gotten them. I am not a collection agent, and I don't "chew folks out" for things that don't concern me.

Concerning the box issue.....if a truck guy repo'd a box from a third party here, I would consider that larceny. The third party is not contractually bound to the seller in any way, and that box is his. In that scenario, the box would stay in possession of the innocent buyer until a judge orders otherwise...and he won't. Selling indentured property is a misdemeanor here...but chargeable only to parties named on the contract.

 

[liliysdad]

UCC liens transfer from one entity to the next. A second party purchasing a toolbox isn't relieved of the lien. It can still be repossessed. In fact, I found a case where someone had a toolbox that wasn't paid off, and sold it to another party (no tools). Eventually the tool company found the second buyer from the original debtor and repossessed the box with all their brand of tools in it (Matco). None of the tools in the box weren't part of the original UCC lien which just stated "All Matco Tools" but because of the "dirty hands" of the second buyer, judge didn't care and allowed it since there was no way to know what tools were or weren't part of the lien.

UCC liens that specify "All Snap-on tools" is quite specific. They have a lien on all tools you own with the name Snap-on printed on it. The checking aspect of it comes in the form that the individual you purchased from does in fact have a lien on his tools.

You keep your judges out there....here, that would get laughed out of the courtroom...as it should be.

Ridiculous contract verbage like that is exactly why I place tool truck mongers about one half step above Payday and Title Loan operations.

 

[Lucid Moments]

UCC liens transfer from one entity to the next. A second party purchasing a toolbox isn't relieved of the lien. It can still be repossessed. In fact, I found a case where someone had a toolbox that wasn't paid off, and sold it to another party (no tools). Eventually the tool company found the second buyer from the original debtor and repossessed the box with all their brand of tools in it (Matco). None of the tools in the box weren't part of the original UCC lien which just stated "All Matco Tools" but because of the "dirty hands" of the second buyer, judge didn't care and allowed it since there was no way to know what tools were or weren't part of the lien.

UCC liens that specify "All Snap-on tools" is quite specific. They have a lien on all tools you own with the name Snap-on printed on it. The checking aspect of it comes in the form that the individual you purchased from does in fact have a lien on his tools.

I believe you heard that, but I bet if you dig into the details there is more to it that you are recounting here. If you have the case specifics post them up. Court records are public and depending on how old it is I might be able to find them.

 

[Lucid Moments]

The whole premise of UCC lien declarations is that it gives a buyer a way to check if the item has a lien, so that they have valid information to rely on in deciding on whether or not to buy the object. If, as in the case of Snap-on, they don't specifically identify the item, that doesn't accomplish the intent of the code; i.e. the buyer can't identify whether or not the item has a lien on it. So, my uneducated, non-legal opinion is that the agreement would have pretty good enforceability against the debtor, as a signatory to the contract. A third party, not so much so, as they weren't a signatory to the contract, and the lien holder didn't give adequate information to document and perfect the lien.

Where your argument falls apart is if the person refuses to voluntarily surrender the tools and the creditor tries to get a writ of possession. A judge might do it on a UCC-1 with an individual inventory of tools on it, but I don't believe a judge would do it on anything that just says all Snap-On tools in persons possession.

 

[The Fall]

I couldn't care less about the trucks.

I paid for all of my tools in full, up front. Work can get precarious -- see the present situation. I didn't want ANYONE trying to come after me on money owed. Some of the drivers do it to themselves. They'll try to load up young guys with whatever they can -- it can get like NINJA home loans in tool form -- to make that extra buck, repayment be damned. A new Cornwell guy started and tried to get me to make payments on a radiator hose removal hook set. I had to nearly fight him, saying, "No, I'm not doing payments. Just take the full amount."

A shop next door was going out of business. The Snap-on guy -- a real schmuck -- went there when an employee wasn't and just rifled through his box. Took whatever. When things die, people don't care. They other guy working there just let it go on.

My experiences with the trucks were fine cuz I paid in full. But I didn't buy much and I found that unless you were under their thumb, running up a pawnshop tab, they rarely came by. Great tools and I preferred their ratchets to anything else "commercially available" except SK's. But, again, pick and choose. Look elsewhere if an acceptable alternative exists. Avoid debt. Their tools' prices outpace wage growth.

 

[Lassen Forge]

He hasn't out right told me he was going to take them but he asked me if I was going to start paying my bill. I don't have an account because I always pay with cash. So he was insinuating it was now my debt because the kid flaked out. Some posters seem to have misread and thought I traded a box I owned snappy for but I owned it and to the best of my knowledge the kid had paid snappy what he owed for the tools.

Dude you don't have a good relationship with this guy if he's treating you like this. He's taking you for a fool because he thinks you're just a mechanic I guess.

Id tell this guy to **** off it the next time he "insinuates" that the debt somehow transferred to you.

Yep, there is no way I would consider this guy "on good terms" with me after that. Yikes

Here's a scenario - I jave a lot of tools I bought with cashola via the SEP. Paid off in full before they ship as per their policy. Tech A tells me he has a screaming deal on a box that his brother, Tech B, has... So I buy the box from Tech B via Tech A, only to find out that Tech B still owed on the box. Tooltruck Driver C shows up at the shop, recognizes the box, ever so casually checks the numbers, and asks me when I am going to pay on my account (of which I never had one).

Telling him he should go insert Driver C into Truck D and get the L off the property. He says I have to surrender the box and all my tools.

Not just the "hot box" but all my fully paid for tools that happen to have that Snappy imprint.

My question is this... who is at fault, and who repays me for the tools that Driver C just, in essence, stole from me? Never mind about the box... I never signed ANY paper with SO, not for the tools, not for the box. So that loan... is not MY loan. I have not so much as a handshake with this guy, and he's saying I owe him?

The other question is this... if it went to court (as it likely would), how much business, good will, and honestly, time making money is the driver willing to sacrifice going back and forth to court to try to repo my paid-for tools?

 

[liliysdad]

You're really talking about a situation similar to repossession of a car. Car isn't paid for, it's repossessed and sold at auction to cover remaining loan, costs, and fees. You can keep the car garaged, hide it, but eventually if it's not repossessed the bank gets an order to take it from you.

Box is repo'd with tools in it. Everything is sold to pay off remaining balance of tool bill on truck ("the loan"). Tools branded with X brand in the box are also part of the collateral for the loan, and if they're in the box when repossessed they can be sold. Other tool brands are returned. Balance of the loan is paid off, plus costs and fees.

Dirty Hands doctrine applies. You're the buyer who knows there's a lien, but purchases it anyway. Is it criminal? Could be depending. High dollar values here. Does the UCC lien disappear because the original debtor sells it to someone else? No chance. If the lien persists, which UCC liens do, then the lien transfers to the next person in possession of it. IF the company wants to get a writ they can. If the person who sold them to you knows who you are, they can tell X company where the tools went.

Pretending you do a UCC search and it coming up empty doesn't preclude the possible repercussions of the transaction.

I have the case number. I'll pull the filing and post it.

I am sure this varies by state...as do most civil matters.

You, however, are awfully invested in perpetuating the slimeball truck guy stereotype. Keep on keeping on...

 

[yardiron]

I think around here the dollar amount has a lot to do with how a debt is considered.
If its got a serial number, can be identified, and there's a signed contract, then its deemed as collateral. Small items, regardless of the compiled total aren't tracked that way.

I have seen dealers come into a shop and haul away complete tool boxes over an outstanding tool truck debt, but I think if anyone really took it to court, the dealer would lose. Most shop owners would hand over your stuff in a heartbeat to the tool guy if your not there. I've never had to worry about that because I've always paid cash.

I did have some idiot dealer come in one day who took over for a guy who retired, who insisted that my one tool box was his. The box was 30 years old, from the early 70's. I had bought it from a SO dealer 10 years prior who took it in trade. He swore up and down that in his 'first' stint as a SO dealer years ago he had sold that box and the guy skipped town. He told me I owed him $1200. I told the guy to pound sand, take a hike.
No one in the shop would deal with him. I had a SO receipt for cash from another dealer. I had bought the box cheap to use as a shop cart, an old KR-396. I knew the box's history, it belonged to a former boss of mine, he traded it in, a guy at the tire shop down the road had bought it and used it for a few years, and traded it in to the same dealer. I bought it for cheap and repainted it. The stamp on the back of the box was vague, mostly filled with paint. This new dealer thought he was going to take a scraper to it so he could read the numbers. I'm not even sure the thing had a 'serial number' there.
The box wasn't likely his, it came from a different area, he couldn't give me the name of the guy who he sold it too and didn't know the dealer I bought it from or the two owners I knew before me. He didn't last but a few months, he just stopped showing up. We were without a SO dealer for several years after that.
What got me was that there was another dealer who's territory stopped not a half mile down the street who couldn't stop at that shop and really didn't want us meeting him at any of his stops down the road.
At the next place I worked, a large car dealer, we had a Cornwall guy come in one day, he sold a half dozen new boxes and a ton of stuff to a bunch of the younger guys. Then he never showed back up. Guys didn't know what to do or how to pay because the guy had put it all on a truck account. 6 years later a different CW guy shows up looking to collect on those debts. Most of those guys were long gone, the one or two that weren't had all but forgotten about it. The owner threw the dealer out and no one ever heard anything about it again.
For some reason this area must be bad for dealers, there's one reliable Matco guy, and a Snap On guy in the next town who will sell from his house on the weekends. The local SO guy won't stop unless he knows hes going to sell a few hundred bucks a week or more.
I even had an SO rep tell me that they won't warranty anything I bought from a different dealer unless I have a receipt for it proving I bought it new. He refused to replace a dried out and cracked orange dead blow hammer. A dealer I passed along the highway one day out of state did replace it with no questions though. I now have 11 others that have fallen apart the same way. I bought them all new in the mid 90's or so.
None of the local dealers will order or replace them, one did try to make me a bargain saying that if I bought something 'big' off him he'd see about getting my hammers replaced. (I likely have more Snap On tools here than most dealers, some of it I bought new, some I inherited or bought used but I've spend tens of thousands of dollars with SO over the years).

I think most of he problem these days is that dealers are short on cash themselves and they can't order things for guys. I've often tried to get local guys to order me something only to be told to go online and buy it. If that's the deal these days, what's the sense in dealing with them in the first place. The whole benefit of buying SO is that you have a weekly dealer to service your tools. If that's gone, I see no benefit in buying their tools. It seems its either too old, we don't make it anymore, or you need a receipt, or "SO don't warranty those anymore".

 

[liliysdad]

This is pretty common civil law that extends across the board. Even a bank with a loan to a bakery gets a UCC lien against a bakery's (for example) equipment, and other assets.

I am quite familiar with the concept, but your example is more than a bit different.

You have a lien on the box, and (quite shadily) the contents of that box as collateral. The third party's contents are not collateral, they are in no way tied to that box, and you have no claim to those contents unless you can prove that the innocent buyer purchased those tools from the party listed on the contract.

Your scenario would be akin to me buying an indentured service bed for my truck. As that bed has no title, and no mechanism to transfer ownership, a reasonable person would have no qualms about such transfer. Two years down the road, you show up at my house, and take my service bed, the truck its attached to, and the tools inside to satisfy a lien on the bed.

 

[Lucid Moments]

You're really talking about a situation similar to repossession of a car. Car isn't paid for, it's repossessed and sold at auction to cover remaining loan, costs, and fees. You can keep the car garaged, hide it, but eventually if it's not repossessed the bank gets an order to take it from you.

Box is repo'd with tools in it. Everything is sold to pay off remaining balance of tool bill on truck ("the loan"). Tools branded with X brand in the box are also part of the collateral for the loan, and if they're in the box when repossessed they can be sold. Other tool brands are returned. Balance of the loan is paid off, plus costs and fees.

Dirty Hands doctrine applies. You're the buyer who knows there's a lien, but purchases it anyway. Is it criminal? Could be depending. High dollar values here. Does the UCC lien disappear because the original debtor sells it to someone else? No chance. If the lien persists, which UCC liens do, then the lien transfers to the next person in possession of it. IF the company wants to get a writ they can. If the person who sold them to you knows who you are, they can tell X company where the tools went. Asking for relief with unclean hands in any legal matter is not solid legal ground to operate from.

Pretending you do a UCC search and it coming up empty doesn't preclude the possible repercussions of the transaction.

I have the case number. I'll pull the filing and post it.

No, I am not talking about something similar to a car. A car is a very specific titled piece of real property. That is very different from a toolbox full of tools. I believe you may be able to get the toolbox, but I do not believe that you have a right to all the X branded tools in that toolbox. That is a load of garbage.

Now it is remotely possible that something like that made its way through the legal system. I hope not, but maybe it did because bad stuff works it way through the legal system sometimes. If so I suspect poor legal representation.

Also I realize you did not say the case you mention involved you, but if you were to take advantage of such a miscarriage of justice then you are a bad person and I am glad I don't do business with you.

 

[liliysdad]

Also I realize you did not say the case you mention involved you, but if you were to take advantage of such a miscarriage of justice then you are a bad person and I am glad I don't do business with you.

To be honest, the fact he's arguing in favor of the principle tells me all I need to know.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

Here's a scenario - I jave a lot of tools I bought with cashola via the SEP. Paid off in full before they ship as per their policy. Tech A tells me he has a screaming deal on a box that his brother, Tech B, has... So I buy the box from Tech B via Tech A, only to find out that Tech B still owed on the box. Tooltruck Driver C shows up at the shop, recognizes the box, ever so casually checks the numbers, and asks me when I am going to pay on my account (of which I never had one).

Telling him he should go insert Driver C into Truck D and get the L off the property. He says I have to surrender the box and all my tools.

Not just the "hot box" but all my fully paid for tools that happen to have that Snappy imprint.

My scenario would be to allow the driver to get in his truck and leave or be hauled away in one that looked similar with flashing lights and a siren. If they failed to comply I would state loudly "I feel threatened" three times and make good on my promise.

 

[liliysdad]

My scenario would be to allow the driver to get in his truck and leave or be hauled away in one that looked similar with flashing lights and a siren. If they failed to comply I would state loudly "I feel threatened" three times and make good on my promise.

I hope I am the guy who shows up when the cops are called! I have never impounded a tool truck, but I sure ain't afraid to try!

 

[Skin]

You're really talking about a situation similar to repossession of a car. Car isn't paid for, it's repossessed and sold at auction to cover remaining loan, costs, and fees. You can keep the car garaged, hide it, but eventually if it's not repossessed the bank gets an order to take it from you.

Actually it's apples to oranges. Vehicles are mostly sold though secured loans. Until the loan is paid the bank quite literally owns your vehicle as they possess the title.

There is a lot of strong language in the terms of sale of items off the tool truck but at the end of the day it's generally an agreement in good faith.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

I hope I am the guy who shows up when the cops are called! I have never impounded a tool truck, but I sure ain't afraid to try!

I wouldn't think it would be any different than a tow for such a truck, the tow would just be far more expensive.

 

[M635_Guy]

I'm now confused if y'all are disagreeing or not - lol.

I'm a simple guy. If you take a loan out and fail to pay, they're going to come after you for the balance. If the terms of the loan state that part of your collateral for the loan is other Snap On-branded tools, then you agreed to the terms. Unless you're doing it to hand them some of the balance, selling them before the guy can arrive at your door to claim them is shady.

(I have to think the reason SO specifies other tools of their brand is they have one or more relatively easy ways to capitalize those tools. Not nearly so easy with non-SO for them...)

I can 100% understand why someone wouldn't want to be subject to that. The remedy is to buy the tools outright or use a different kind of loan that has less-onerous terms.

I say all that knowing the F80 ratchet I bought from ssdave arrived today. Of course I bought it without any idea of it being part of this general scenario. To be clear, I'm not accusing him of anything at all, but I'm going to look at it a bit funny - lol. Of course, I'm also going to use the **** out of it.

 

[Wrench97]

To be honest, the fact he's arguing in favor of the principle tells me all I need to know.

The box is his(you basically purchased stolen property so have no rights to it), your tools are your tools you have no loan agreement with him.

 

[Lucid Moments]

Actually it's apples to oranges. Vehicles are mostly sold though secured loans. Until the loan is paid the bank quite literally owns your vehicle as they possess the title.

There is a lot of strong language in the terms of sale of items off the tool truck but at the end of the day it's generally an agreement in good faith.

Okay, no the bank does not ever own your car. They have a security interest in it and can take it under certain narrowly defined circumstances.

The bank does not get to drive your car, the bank is not responsible for maintaining your car, the bank doesn't (usually) insure your car. The bank does not own your car.

 

[Lucid Moments]

Go watch this.

And your point is? He says he has paperwork documenting what the debtor owed money on. If that is the case then he is doing it right as far as I know.

My only point is that the paperwork has to be specific. It can't just be any x-branded tool in the tool box. Heck there is no reason that he couldn't have pledged his Mac, Matco, etc. tools to his Snap-On account except that they were probably already pledged to Mac, and Matco or whoever.

Also in the case in that video the guy wasn't there to dispute it. If he doesn't care then whoever takes his tools can get away with pretty much whatever they want.