Plumbing vs. me - and I lost today......

[jpcjguy]

Hi all,

So I attempted to hook up my 1" black poly line to the house today and got my but kicked.
First, when routing the extra length of the poly around a concrete support piling it knocked into the 3/4" line and the the fitting down on the manifold by the pressure tank must have been on its last leg because it snapped off!
Of course, I had not drained or turned the pump off yet so I am getting flooded in the crawlspace (2.5-3 feet clearance) as I scramble out to run to the other side of the garage and turn the breaker off.
Now I am covered head to toe in mud - that lovely clay kind. Fun!!!
Luckily the fitting that snapped was a pex line (which goes to CPVC which then transitions to copper!). I happen to have the fitting and the pex so I was able to fix that, after scooping out the muddy water that it was sitting in.

Ok, So I have the broken line fixed - at least I can get water to the house - whew!
Then I look at a union that I have not touched and it is now seeping a tiny bit of water - what the.....?!?!?!? Maybe from the jostling of the pipes a little?

Then I cut the CPVC line where I will tee into the line (after my water softener, soda ash, booster, etc.) That at least goes well.
Now I take my massive 1" brass assembly and attach it to the line - I use a metal band to support it.
Hook it all up and leaks in several places....sigh.....
Grab some wrenches and tighten them more - still small leaks in several spots.
Take it out and redo the teflon tape - do like 6 wraps and tighten the heck out of it.
Same thing....dammit!!!
Also the back flow preventer is leaking! This is what i have: https://www.zurn.com/products/water-safety/backflow-prevention/700xl/12ufx12f-700xl If you look at the attache pic it is leaking at the oring I am sure (#3 in the attached pic). Try doing it just snug -still leaked, cranked on it - still leaked. WTF?!?!?

I threw in the towel for the night....beaten. So I am concerned about that gray union in the pic that is now leaking. There is not much space above it to cut it out - thoughts?
And what do I do about my leaking fittings? Did I overcrank them and damage them? Do I redo them all with like 8 wraps of teflon and get them snug and the just a quarter -half turn?
Do I call a plumber at this point - but I feel like I am sooooo close...

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[jkeyser14]

Do yourself a favor and toss the teflon tape in the trash and buy the liquid thread sealant. It solves 99% of problems people have when using the tape.

 

[Rc_Guy]

I have used dope and tape for 24 years as a sprinkler fitter and never have a problem

 

[NUTTSGT]

Put a little bit of heat on the brass fitting before sliding the black poly on it and then two hose clamps. Good hose clamps, not cheap ones.

 

[nadogail]

First, please allow me to welcome you to The Club of Baptized Home Plumbers.

If your water quality is "Just Right" the minerals in the water will "Lime Up" the drips and the leak will stop.

There is a reason why my local plumber who has a grand house over looking the bay; it is because the ring tone on is phone is rumored to be "Cha Ching" just like an old cash register. He learned his trade the hard way; by working at it for years and he charges for his experience.

 

[jpcjguy]

Thanks for all the feedback. Regarding the black pipe, I did have a leak at first - over torqued one of the hose clamps. I then got my propane torch and waved it briefly over the pipe and got a new clamp (I do double them up). That part is not leaking now.
Of course, I will have to take it off when I re-do the assembly...sigh....
So should I abandon the tape and go all sealant? I have a tube of what is in the attached pic. Or is there a better one?

Also, should I pre-build the assembly or attach each section one at a time? With the black poly at the end, I can spin the assembly when I attach it to the CPVC section and the just pull the black poly on and cinch it down.
What is standard practice?

 

[samss]

My plumber friend uses tape and thread sealant together. No leaks.

"I scramble out to run to the other side of the garage and turn the breaker off."
You need a power disconnect at the pressure switch.

 

[Dagny]

Iv'e applied gallons of that stuff to pipe threads over the years it's top notch.

 

[Balvar24]

On the brass fittings: I can tell from the picture they aren't tight. Bigger wrench or more cowbell.

Unions don't get dope or tape anywhere other than where the pipe connects.

I'm not sure what the gray fittings are on turnoff lines, but it looks like a good place for a sharkbite style fitting.

Thread compound and Teflon are more a lubricant than a sealer. Pipe threads are tapered and you have to get them right enough to seat. A long pips wrench (or two) are your friend (s).

Unions in PVC are superfluous as long as they still sell couplings and glue.

Working under a house *****. I feel for you.

 

[kaymccampbell]

Redo your leakers with the RectorSeal. Once you've used it you'll never go back to Teflon. I've used it for decades, with stunning results.

Backflow preventers are naturally ****. I've never dealt with a residential one that didn't seep. You could try silicone pool fitting grease on the o-ring. I've used it successfully.

 

[kaymccampbell]

An added thought. RectorSeal is like NevRSeez. It gets everywhere. Bring paper towels, and clean assiduously.

 

[DAVE VAN]

Most big box unions leak (China ****) Try to find some at a commercial store where the plumbers shop.

 

[matt_i]

I'm in the camp of no-teflon. If you have to redo or change a fitting its a nighmarish mess and the shards can easily clog "stuff" in systems more complicated than residential plumbing. I use Loctite "PST" 592. It also tracks everywhere and is hard to wash out of clothes. So as Kay mentioned liberal use of cleanup towels is a must on hands and tools and fittings.

My rule is when making up fittings, if I'm not sweating then its not tight enough, using 12" crescent and 18-24" pipe wrenches....with some caution for under 1/2" NPT.

If a union leaks its not tight enough...and I say this from almost always using metal fittings.
(I use a face-seal o-ring union in outdoor PVC systems)

 

[ddawg16]

No way I would have a house with CPVC plumbing. I think long term you would be better off with PEX...or good ol' copper.

Teflon tape is NOT a thread sealer. It just makes it easier to turn the threads. It's the taper of the threads that creates the seal. The Teflon tape just lets you get more turns.

 

[gorilla]

Looking at the picture it's obvious that pipe you have coming off your pressure tank is a hack repair done by a real dumb ***. The line from the pressure tank should consist of a elbow and a run of pvc pipe to a union or a glue coupling. That hunk of pex is simply their because whoever made the repair didn't have the skill to realign the existing pipe. Rector seal will fix your thread leak issues and a little silicone grease on the o ring in the backflow device will allow it to seal.
Why do you call your pipe cpvc? I've never seen white cpvc it's usually gray. I'm not sure if this is still true.

 

[twistedstang]

Teflon tape is not a sealant, it's a lubricant for the threads. Three wraps of teflon (in the direction of the threads) followed by pipe dope.

 

[jpcjguy]

Thanks for all the feedback. I am going to take out the assemble and redo it with a couple wraps of teflon and then use the pipe joint seal that I dug up from a box in the attached garage. Any preference of which to use?
And I gather I can really crank on them being that they are 1", correct?

 

[kaymccampbell]

RectorSeal is the clear winner in this race. That Oatey **** is just that.

 

[snickers muncher]

I'm not a plumber and I'm certain that I have much less experience than many of you guys, but I just don't buy the whole "teflon tape is just for lubrication" thing. I've heard that before. I'm sure its low friction property is one of the defining criteria for its suitability, but its soft, pliable nature would allow it to act as a deforming filler to stop up small gaps.

If it's sole purpose is for lubrication, then why don't people use (assuming compatable materials) petroleum jelly, mineral oil, etc. for threaded joints? A smear of Vaseline would be much easier to work with then fiddling with tape.

 

[Docbentley]

Redo your leakers with the RectorSeal. Once you've used it you'll never go back to Teflon. I've used it for decades, with stunning results.

Backflow preventers are naturally ****

. I've never dealt with a residential one that didn't seep. You could try silicone pool fitting grease on the o-ring. I've used it successfully.

This. Eliminate the backflow preventer and you have fewer possibilities for leaks.

 

[Retroman]

I have had good luck with teflon tape then pipe dope and whenever I can use them Shark bite fittings I love those things.

 

[Notgrownup]

Only place I use Teflon tape is on my garden hoses and the quick connect that I use on them...I use pipe dope for everything else.

 

[johninct]

I'm not a plumber and I'm certain that I have much less experience than many of you guys, but I just don't buy the whole "teflon tape is just for lubrication" thing. I've heard that before. I'm sure its low friction property is one of the defining criteria for its suitability, but its soft, pliable nature would allow it to act as a deforming filler to stop up small gaps.

If it's sole purpose is for lubrication, then why don't people use (assuming compatable materials) petroleum jelly, mineral oil, etc. for threaded joints? A smear of Vaseline would be much easier to work with then fiddling with tape.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Arne73]

The pipe fitters where I work use Blue Monster teflon tape and pipe sealant. The explanation was "I'm doing this once".
Neither is a substitute for loose threads.
YMMV

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[yeldogt]

The pipe fitters where I work use Blue Monster teflon tape and pipe sealant. The explanation was "I'm doing this once".
Neither is a substitute for loose threads.
YMMV

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using The Garage Journal mobile app

My favorite ...

I also agree that most of the parts from the big box stores are junk -- go to a real supply house and get the premium product.

When I do things myself -- I figure I'm saving all the labor. I buy the best quality components ... most pros don't use crappy stuff because they know it has problems and call backs. I don't have the skill to do work arounds for crappy parts ... the best parts go together w/o issue .

 

[ddawg16]

I'm not a plumber and I'm certain that I have much less experience than many of you guys, but I just don't buy the whole "teflon tape is just for lubrication" thing. I've heard that before. I'm sure its low friction property is one of the defining criteria for its suitability, but its soft, pliable nature would allow it to act as a deforming filler to stop up small gaps.

If it's sole purpose is for lubrication, then why don't people use (assuming compatable materials) petroleum jelly, mineral oil, etc. for threaded joints? A smear of Vaseline would be much easier to work with then fiddling with tape.

My thoughts exactly.

Understandable question.....

In lubrication science, one of the characteristics of lubrication is shear (I believe the technical term is boundary). This is the ability of the lubricant to resist being 'squeezed out'. Hence, one of the reasons we have different viscosity's of oil.

The oil in your motor depends on the pump to keep the oil where you want it...hydrostatic...

The oil in your diff has no pump.....the forces at play there are a combination of characteristics.

Teflon tape is a material which will stay in place under high pressures. If you put some type of oil in there, it's just going to be squeezed out.

You can do your own test. Get a piece of 3/4" pipe with one end threaded and measure the # of turns you can get until you hit a certain torque point. I'm pretty sure you will see better results with Teflon. A heavy oil might work almost as well.....

But.....another aspect is contamination. In things like water systems, you really don't want any oil in there....right?

And while you are at it....look at a typical pipe thread. You will notice it's tapered. Good pipe threaders know how far to cut the threads on a pipe. Too short and you don't have enough thread in the fitting. Too far and the pipe may go too far into the fitting and you risk a chance of the pipe wall at the end being too thin and possible cracking.

I know it says it also works as a "deformable filler"....but let me tell you from past experience, if you are depending on it for that, you have other problems.

Learned something though....I didn't realize white was only used up to 3/8" pipe...I know most of us have used it on much larger pipe.

Here is what Wiki says
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_seal_tape

Thread seal tape (also known as PTFE tape, Teflon tape, or plumber's tape) is a polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) film tape commonly used in plumbing for sealing pipe threads. The tape is sold cut to specific widths and wound on a spool, making it easy to wind around pipe threads. Thread seal tape lubricates allowing for a deeper seating of the threads, and it helps prevent the threads from seizing when being unscrewed.[1] The tape also works as a deformable filler and thread lubricant, helping to seal the joint without hardening or making it more difficult to tighten,[2] and instead making it easier to tighten.[1]

Typically the tape is wrapped around a pipe's thread three times before it is screwed into place. It is commonly used commercially in applications including pressurized water systems, central heating systems, and air compression equipment.

Temperature Range: -450°F to +500°F (-268°C to +260°C). PTFE is completely stable up to +500˚F or +260˚C. Decomposition is slow up to 750°F or 400°C. Decomposition will occur on contact with open flames.

......

Thread seal tape used in plumbing applications is most commonly white, but it is also available in various colors. It is often used to correspond to color coded pipelines (US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand: yellow for natural gas, green for oxygen, etc.). These color-codes for thread sealing tape were introduced by Bill Bentley of Unasco Pty Ltd in the 1970s. In the UK, tape is used from coloured reels, e.g. yellow reels for gas, green for oxygen.

White: used on NPT threads up to 3/8 inch
Yellow: used on NPT threads 1/2 inch to 2 inch, often labeled "gas tape"
Pink: used on NPT threads 1/2 inch to 2 inch, safe for potable water
Green: oil-free PTFE used on oxygen lines and some specific medical gasses
Gray: contains nickel, anti-seizing, anti-galling and anti-corrosion, used for stainless pipes
Copper: contains copper granules and is certified as a thread lubricant but not a sealer

 

[ddawg16]

The pipe fitters where I work use Blue Monster teflon tape and pipe sealant. The explanation was "I'm doing this once".
Neither is a substitute for loose threads.
YMMV

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That is some really good ****.

I have some....but I save it for connections I never want to worry about again.....like the ones that take more time to get to than to work on.

 

[BD1]

Teflon tape and dope are lubricants.
Many users of tape, tighten too tight because of its a lubricant. The fitting stretches and leaks. The cheapest tape is the worst.
As mentioned Blue monster is what we use and gasolia pipe dope.
Check where your leaks are carefully. You may have a hairline crack.


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[jd_1138]

My usual loss against plumbing is a lack of experience, knowledge, proper tool(s) for the job, proper materials/fittings. lol.

Whereas the plumber I use has a truck of tools and the proper materials.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, Rector Seal is the standard of the industry, also IMHO the products sold at the big box stores are lower priced "Knock Offs".

If a product is said to be "just as good as ***" , do yourself a favor and if you can get the ***.

 

[twistedstang]

I'm not a plumber and I'm certain that I have much less experience than many of you guys, but I just don't buy the whole "teflon tape is just for lubrication" thing. I've heard that before. I'm sure its low friction property is one of the defining criteria for its suitability, but its soft, pliable nature would allow it to act as a deforming filler to stop up small gaps.

If it's sole purpose is for lubrication, then why don't people use (assuming compatable materials) petroleum jelly, mineral oil, etc. for threaded joints? A smear of Vaseline would be much easier to work with then fiddling with tape.

Well, I'm a union pipefitter of 20 some years. I've done screwed joints that see over 3000 psi of pressure as well as screwed joints up to 6". Sure, it's possible to seal a 3/4" screwed joint with just teflon. Or just dope. Try doing one or the other on a 3" joint that's going to see some real pressure and it's a different story. Heres my take. I'm going to assemble the joint like it's going to see some real pressure and know that it will be fine with 50 psi.

 

[Tim Kennedy]

Get rid of as much of the CPVC as possible -- for starters.

 

[pgray007]

I have nothing valuable to contribute other than a vote of solidarity. Plumbing is a dark art and doing my shop was a similar exercise in frustration that gave me a deep and undying respect for the true professionals in that trade.

Good luck and Godspeed! Sounds like you’re getting some good advice and major respect to those that help us plumbing punters!


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[brewchief]

The pipe fitters where I work use Blue Monster teflon tape and pipe sealant. The explanation was "I'm doing this once".
Neither is a substitute for loose threads.
YMMV

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using The Garage Journal mobile app

I'm also a fan of blue monster tape and pipe dope, for the past 5 or so years it's been rectorseal true blue dope.

Going to a supply house won't necessarily get any better quality fittings, I can't remember the last time I got USA made fittings from the supply house, I did get some of the nicest 1 1/2" and 1 1/4" black pipe that I have seen last week and it was made in the USA so that was a nice surprise.

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[manwithtools]

Only place I use Teflon tape is on my garden hoses and the quick connect that I use on them...I use pipe dope for everything else.

Why would you use Teflon tape (or any sealant) on a garden hose fitting that utilizes a washer for sealing?

Thread sealants should only be used on tapered pipe fitting threads - nothing else in the plumbing world get's any sealant - tape or otherwise.

 

[Mr. T]

RectorSeal is the clear winner in this race. That Oatey **** is just that.

I’ll respectfully disagree. I’m not saying the RectorSeal is bad, it’s good.

I’ve made a whole lot of connections with the Oatey “Great White.” It’s good stuff if used properly. What I particularly like is the it is non-hardening, which makes it easy to clean up and means that there is no cure time. It is also good for use on hydraulics and potable water, so I only have to carry one pipe dope. I’ve used it on hydraulic fitting that see 3000 plus psi and never had a problem with it.

Also, to the OP, 6 wraps of tape is three too many. More tape is not better. It’s actually worse. Pipes do not get “torqued” to a spec. For a 3/4” NPT connection you should go hand tight plus 2-2 1/2 turns. If you do that with 3 wraps of tape and it still leaks you have bad threads.

 

[Mr. T]

Also, if you’re stacking fittings like that you should tighten them one at a time as you build it. Don’t put two fitting on either side of a ****** and tighten from the ends. You’ll probably end up with one loose fitting and one overly tight fitting.

 

[rayra]

Looking at the picture it's obvious that pipe you have coming off your pressure tank is a hack repair done by a real dumb ***. The line from the pressure tank should consist of a elbow and a run of pvc pipe to a union or a glue coupling. That hunk of pex is simply their because whoever made the repair didn't have the skill to realign the existing pipe. Rector seal will fix your thread leak issues and a little silicone grease on the o ring in the backflow device will allow it to seal.
Why do you call your pipe cpvc? I've never seen white cpvc it's usually gray. I'm not sure if this is still true.

Not only all that but all the 'extra' 90deg turns slow down the max flow rate.

 

[BD1]

I'm also a fan of blue monster tape and pipe dope, for the past 5 or so years it's been rectorseal true blue dope.

Going to a supply house won't necessarily get any better quality fittings, I can't remember the last time I got USA made fittings from the supply house, I did get some of the nicest 1 1/2" and 1 1/4" black pipe that I have seen last week and it was made in the USA so that was a nice surprise.

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Supply house won't get better fittings ??
I suggest you find new suppliers. Screwed fittings and pipe are all USA from our suppliers. Weld fittings are another story.
WELDBEND is USA and available IF you have the $$$ OR if it is specified.
Most are made in India .
Pipe is all USA.


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[jpcjguy]

Thanks for all the great feedback! So I crawled under the house again and started cutting out most of the nearby CPVC and those awful gray compression fittings that started leaking.
I took out my brass pipe "assembly and cleaned up and removed all the tape and used the rector seal - probably went a little overboard -but whatever.
See the pics below of what I cut out and how much sealant I used.
I also ended up with 3 sharkbite fittings - one to the CPVC (that was used to the other end of the house for the water conditioning stuff), one to the copper that goes to the rest of the house and one for the 1/2" line to a nearby outside spigot.
I used pex for everything in between because I had all the supplies.
Glad to report that the entire assembly is leak free and all the other fittings!
EXCEPT ONE - the 1" black poly on the brass barb has a tiny little leak. I figured as much since I did not touch that. At least I can leave the assembly alone!!
So I tried tightening the two hose clamps and could feel them at their breaking point. So I need to find some super heavy duty ones, obviously the "pro" ones at Lowes are clearly not! Anyone with suggestions?
I also figure when I cut redo that fitting I will cut it back about 4-5" inches so I have a new part of the poly to clamp down.
It did slide on without much effort, so should I heat the pipe up some or the brass fitting and then slide it down and crank it with 2 hose clamps or something else?
Thanks everybody!