Lighting cost calculator

[ccpanel]

So I couldnt make heads or tails of all the different LED options.
Head spinning.

so the nerd says.... make a table.

So I did.
Its in google sheets.
this is a sharable link-you can download and edit your own version-save as....
you cant change mine BUT.. you can input your own light options, own space sizes
I have links in there for various items... links will go bad eventually.

I focused on 4 and 8 foot linkable units for MANY reasons.
The first is lots of ~lower level light leads to less shadows and less glare.
-if you have 4 monster $400 lights and 1 fails, you lose 25% of your light and pay a ton.
if you have 100 lights, at $15/each, you have to lose 25 units to lose 25% and you have to lose 25 units to lose ~$400
Odds of 25% failure rate on the 4 and 8 foot units is lower I imagine. its also MUCH easier to quickly get a replacement OR ignore the failure and not do anything.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ghPfX0MWx4qWJwZvT-FPMXgBDzyzANYZ4qVRF7Nb4BM/edit?usp=sharing

This doc may or may not be available in the future-if anyone years down the road finds this and the link is dead-delete this thread. (thereby creating a paradox where if you find it and the link is dead, you wont be able to find it cause the thread will have been deleted...
and around we go!


also-this tool will be constantly changing as long as i need to make changes for myself, im sure this will be helpful in deciding for yourself, make the changes you want to fit your life after you "save as" to make your own edits.

 

[nadogail]

Thanks for sharing.

 

[cybrdyke]

I do lighting calculations and energy calculations all day, so I know how much work you put into this. Sorry, but I cant follow where you're going with this. First thing that throws me off is "total lumens". This is a figure that really means nothing in the lighting world. What's interesting is that there's another thread right now where the same figure was being used. Is there someplace that you researched that suggested this?
I think it would be helpful if you understood lighting just a little better. For instance, lighting levels are not determined by dividing lumens by square foot. This is surely a recipe for a bad outcome.
Also, the links provided dont give me the same prices that you have listed, which makes all of the numbers different. Do you get a discount? For instance, item 1 (line 4):
link provided gives me a price of $174 for a 4 pack, or $43.50 each. You list them at 22.19. Item 2 (line 5) gives me $519.76 for a 25 pack, or 20.79 each, which agrees with you. Item 3 (line 6) gives me $376.43 for a 25 pack, or 15.05 each. You list it at 13.92. So, these are kinda all over the place.

What's the difference between column B and N?
I guess ultimately, I'd like to know what column are you looking at that tells you what you want to know? I mean, I see alot of data, but usually it's telling some kind of story.
CD

 

[dcg9381]

As an engineer, I get it.
As a consumer, I can tell you that I'll never have any other lighting system other than these UFO "high bay" LED lights with a 18' ceiling. 5 of them on 2400 sqft are like daylight in my shop. If one fails, the PITA of going up there and unplugging one is not a big deal over the years I've spent replacing tube lights and associated ballasts.

 

[Platonic Solid]

I'd reject nearly every fixture (bulb) on your list. Need frosted lenses.

Edit: Also those angled arrays behind a clear lens makes it even worse as the LEDs are more likely to shine directly in your eyes.

 

[That Guy Scott]

As an engineer, I get it.
As a consumer, I can tell you that I'll never have any other lighting system other than these UFO "high bay" LED lights with a 18' ceiling. 5 of them on 2400 sqft are like daylight in my shop. If one fails, the PITA of going up there and unplugging one is not a big deal over the years I've spent replacing tube lights and associated ballasts.

Do you have any pics of them? Model#? I keep going back to the ufo style light for my 40x50x14 due to the ease of them.
I’ve got time to decide. We pour concrete next weekend.

 

[ccpanel]

As an engineer, I get it.
As a consumer, I can tell you that I'll never have any other lighting system other than these UFO "high bay" LED lights with a 18' ceiling. 5 of them on 2400 sqft are like daylight in my shop. If one fails, the PITA of going up there and unplugging one is not a big deal over the years I've spent replacing tube lights and associated ballasts.

And thank goodness I havnt bought a single thing-this is just the nerds way of SLOOOOOWWWWWW processing..
(change is bad)

I will say, I have a sensitivity to 'spot' lighting so will take input but I DO want to avoid the 'burn' if im on my back on a creeper and roll out to stare at the 'sun'

 

[ccpanel]

I'd reject nearly every fixture (bulb) on your list. Need frosted lenses.

Edit: Also those angled arrays behind a clear lens makes it even worse as the LEDs are more likely to shine directly in your eyes.

My initial and only instinct to not have frosted was due to max output.

BUT I totally agree about avoiding the 'spot of burn'. These are also going to be over 16 feet in the air. walls are 16, 3:12 pitch and 42 wide. lights at leak will be 21 feet up, imagine there is some FC degradation in that distance.

Thanks for your input-I know you are busy in your off-forum life and I appreciate the time to give your input.

Thank you.

 

[ccpanel]

I do lighting calculations and energy calculations all day, so I know how much work you put into this. Sorry, but I cant follow where you're going with this. First thing that throws me off is "total lumens". This is a figure that really means nothing in the lighting world. What's interesting is that there's another thread right now where the same figure was being used. Is there someplace that you researched that suggested this?
I think it would be helpful if you understood lighting just a little better. For instance, lighting levels are not determined by dividing lumens by square foot. This is surely a recipe for a bad outcome.
Also, the links provided dont give me the same prices that you have listed, which makes all of the numbers different. Do you get a discount? For instance, item 1 (line 4):
link provided gives me a price of $174 for a 4 pack, or $43.50 each. You list them at 22.19. Item 2 (line 5) gives me $519.76 for a 25 pack, or 20.79 each, which agrees with you. Item 3 (line 6) gives me $376.43 for a 25 pack, or 15.05 each. You list it at 13.92. So, these are kinda all over the place.

What's the difference between column B and N?
I guess ultimately, I'd like to know what column are you looking at that tells you what you want to know? I mean, I see alot of data, but usually it's telling some kind of story.
CD

Difference between B and N is that B is what I need to spend.

Total lumens column A is just the total of what I need to buy to give me a reference based on a ~275-300k lumen total for the whole shop based on observation of what i see others do for their size from photos and reports other places on this forum.
Its a ballpark idea to show me im in the right range.

Its also based sorta on the FC/lumens foot from teh visualizer tool

total lumens column S is just the total for that item number, that amount of pieces in the order.


any errors you see for dollar per unit etc are based on you missing the count. the dollar per unit changes on the website based on how many you choose.
buying a case of 25 is cheaper per unit than buying 4. simple oversight
Line 6 is 50 pieces. price/piece cheaper than buying 25 units but i need 50 to make the same lumen output.

the other thing that I need to make clear again is that this is just a simple tool for me to get a handle and "apples/apples" the cost of items and lighting pieces.

choosing which pieces to install and what kind will be a combo of factors but at least If im looking at 2 identical units(4foot strip clear) i can see that this x part will be cheaper than this Y part based on how many of each i have to buy to reach my goal.

whatever that goal is based on input and feedback and final cumlative research AFTER i figure out exactly how to proceed and BEFORE i hit add to cart/check out.

Love the input and really welcome any ideas and input and corrections.
THank you

 

[Platonic Solid]

My initial and only instinct to not have frosted was due to max output.

BUT I totally agree about avoiding the 'spot of burn'. These are also going to be over 16 feet in the air. walls are 16, 3:12 pitch and 42 wide. lights at leak will be 21 feet up, imagine there is some FC degradation in that distance.

Thanks for your input-I know you are busy in your off-forum life and I appreciate the time to give your input.

Thank you.

16 to 21 feet? In that case, none of the fixtures are appropriate unless the space is for rarely accessed storage.

Edit: OK I reread your first post and see your intention is to use a ridiculous qty of lower output fixtures. Stay away from angled wide distribution at that height. Clear lens won't make much difference either at that height as these are not high output LEDs.

 

[Toomanytools?]

Looks like the Pandemic has given you too much time on your hands? This is when the old adage "paralysis by analysis" comes into play. The lighting choices are daunting and confusing especially for us research type personality's.
I think the link-able Costco type fixture is not the right choice for the size of your space.

Also realize that just because you have 16' eve height and 21' peak you don't need to hang lights that high. What is the tallest object you need to clear a 12' to 13'6" RV? Hang lights at 14' or lower, less lumen power needed.

Start looking at what you don't want, give yourself a budget, stick with lights that have certifications DLC, CEE, Energy Star. Some of the less expensive Chinese lights are actually very good, but many won't be around in a few months or years if you need a replacement.
Platonic Solid has done many layouts you should be able to find a layout similar to yours and someone that has a proven light that is working. Sometimes you just have to jump.

 

[ccpanel]

Looks like the Pandemic has given you too much time on your hands? This is when the old adage "paralysis by analysis" comes into play. The lighting choices are daunting and confusing especially for us research type personality's.
I think the link-able Costco type fixture is not the right choice for the size of your space.

Also realize that just because you have 16' eve height and 21' peak you don't need to hang lights that high. What is the tallest object you need to clear a 12' to 13'6" RV? Hang lights at 14' or lower, less lumen power needed.

Start looking at what you don't want, give yourself a budget, stick with lights that have certifications DLC, CEE, Energy Star. Some of the less expensive Chinese lights are actually very good, but many won't be around in a few months or years if you need a replacement.
Platonic Solid has done many layouts you should be able to find a layout similar to yours and someone that has a proven light that is working. Sometimes you just have to jump.

Actually, my business is a critical business and ive done more work per week in the last 60 days by double than the last 15 years. But ive been waiting for this shop for hmfghh years and cant stop thinking about it. My dad always wanted this shop but he passed at age 90 3 years ago on memorial day... this is kinda "his" shop too. And I gotta get it done before my body finishes breaking and my kids grow up too much to not want to hang with me.

I only was considering mounting directly to ceiling for those items that did not have a hanging feature, simplicity of install, wiring etc...
everything will have to be at or above 14' for sure. I weld and throw sparks and all sorts of "dont try this at home"

dirts barely scraped off, ive got time to figure it out.

my two biggest factors are EVEN light(no spottiness) and overall brightness.
a secondary factor is how many units to install which is also a previously discussed factor of if i have 100 units, 25 have to fail before i lose 25%
if i have 4 units only 1 has to fail for the same effect.

cost/beni/time/longevity/budget/install PITA...

all the normal factors.

 

[Platonic Solid]

I know I've read in some other thread your building specs, but honesty I can't picture it. Do you have a drawing?

 

[ccpanel]

I know I've read in some other thread your building specs, but honesty I can't picture it. Do you have a drawing?

42x60 enclosed
42x100 under roof

inside the enclosed, 12x60 machine/wood shop under and 14x60 apartment over

The apt will cantilever over the lower portion by ~2 feet.
floor trusses are going to be 2x6 rect tubing... probably pretty strong enough... LOL

 

[Platonic Solid]

Well now I know why I couldn't picture it. That's impossible to describe with just words.

 

[ccpanel]

So a friend has 30x40.
25x30 is 9' ceiling
15x30 is 14'
25 units
4,000 each

when i take the total fixtures to get total lumens(they are the costco style 4' LED)
and divide by square feet, I get a ballpark reference to brightness per foot and i assign it lumens per foot just for reference.
his is ~100/foot.
So that gives me a SWAG min goal of 100/foot for my higher ceilings.
that gives me a starting point to know i am in this range of need for ballpark total lumens than i go towards trying to find out what kind and size and lumens of fixture.

I also corrected the layout snipit.

 

[yatg]

I think you need to add more columns to your spreadsheet. You need to factor in labor and materials for wiring. Significant difference between ufo's and tubes. Some of the tubes can be linked, some tube fixtures need receptacles, lots of receptacles!.

 

[ccpanel]

I think you need to add more columns to your spreadsheet. You need to factor in labor and materials for wiring. Significant difference between ufo's and tubes. Some of the tubes can be linked, some tube fixtures need receptacles, lots of receptacles!.

Thats currently an unwritten factor.

the tube lights can be linked generally in 4 or 6 per string depending on lumens.

Currently its looking like tubes will require 1 outlet per purlin per cross beam.
so 8 on 1 side and 6 on the other.
not too many to set up.
Plus it will be nice to be able to micro control output if i go with multi-tubes since i will be wiring in a split grouped pattern to allow for varied brightness without a dimmer but reasonably spread out light.

TBD

 

[Platonic Solid]

So a friend has 30x40.
25x30 is 9' ceiling
15x30 is 14'
25 units
4,000 each

when i take the total fixtures to get total lumens(they are the costco style 4' LED)
and divide by square feet, I get a ballpark reference to brightness per foot and i assign it lumens per foot just for reference.
his is ~100/foot.
So that gives me a SWAG min goal of 100/foot for my higher ceilings.
that gives me a starting point to know i am in this range of need for ballpark total lumens than i go towards trying to find out what kind and size and lumens of fixture.

I also corrected the layout snipit.

STOP THE INSANITY!

If you're going to go off the deep end, at least do it right and use a lighting layout program. Try the Visual tool (link)

 

[cybrdyke]

STOP THE INSANITY!

I tried to tell him, but he just blew it off.
CD

 

[ccpanel]

I tried to tell him, but he just blew it off.
CD

NO.
I actually referenced where I did use it.
HOWEVER, I have limited experience and am still unsure as to how many FC i really need in the main shop(the other areas of no real need of intense study.)

WHat I couldnt figure out is how to modify the tool to use relevant fixtures from the available library.
someone mentioned being able to manually insert data, but either my Win7 is too old or i cant figure it out, either way, ive used it many times with using a light that i thought was sorta similar with sorta similar lumen output.

this is not my business by trade so hence the research.

"assumtions"

 

[ccpanel]

STOP THE INSANITY!

If you're going to go off the deep end, at least do it right and use a lighting layout program. Try the Visual tool (link)

Thanks-ive been using the tool but cant figure out how to manually input the specs from lights I want to consider

The snipit sketch in previous post is my actual layout now.

the apartment is 14 wide and will hang over teh machine/wood area by ~2 feet with tool boxes and workbench along that space.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Thanks-ive been using the tool but cant figure out how to manually input the specs from lights I want to consider.

You can't. You have to find IES files. You can use external IES files downloaded to your PC = you don't have to limit yourself to Acuity brand fixtures. Any manufacturer or distributor that can't provide an IES file for their product shouldn't be trusted.

 

[cybrdyke]

NO.
I actually referenced where I did use it.
HOWEVER, I have limited experience and am still unsure as to how many FC i really need in the main shop(the other areas of no real need of intense study.)

Fair enough. I'll try again.
Where you are going wrong is in using total lumens and lumens per square foot in your thought process and your calculations. Neither of these figures has any relevance in determining how bright your space will be. They are also no good for comparisons between your space or your friends. It will lead you down the path to a poor result.
To get to the end result you need, the process is fairly simple. Determine the amount of foot-candles that you need in the space. If you dont already know, a common auto shop should be lit to between 80 to 100 fc. A common residential garage should be lit to around 30 fc. Next, select a fixture style that will provide the appropriate amount of light, meet your budget and give you the aesthetics that you want. This is the part where your research comes in to play. Once you have a fixture style selected, find that fixture's .ies files and plug them into the computer program to get the quantity and pattern that best meets your needs. Again, your research has some bearing here that will allow you to change fixture types, raise or lower the mounting heights, etc.
CD

 

[ccpanel]

Fair enough. I'll try again.
Where you are going wrong is in using total lumens and lumens per square foot in your thought process and your calculations. Neither of these figures has any relevance in determining how bright your space will be. They are also no good for comparisons between your space or your friends. It will lead you down the path to a poor result.
To get to the end result you need, the process is fairly simple. Determine the amount of foot-candles that you need in the space. If you dont already know, a common auto shop should be lit to between 80 to 100 fc. A common residential garage should be lit to around 30 fc. Next, select a fixture style that will provide the appropriate amount of light, meet your budget and give you the aesthetics that you want. This is the part where your research comes in to play. Once you have a fixture style selected, find that fixture's .ies files and plug them into the computer program to get the quantity and pattern that best meets your needs. Again, your research has some bearing here that will allow you to change fixture types, raise or lower the mounting heights, etc.
CD

Getting that accurate base knowledge of 100FC for a shop is key, i have seen various charts but nothing was consistent.

im gonna be aiming for 100+ as i have some sight issues and bright helps.

not entirely sure how to go about finding the IES files for some of the cheaper options(reworked budget-ouch) That tool is pretty cool and i tried to use it, just didnt know about IES files.
Also-link to that tool has always been right in the file to go straight to the tool.

what kinda screwed me up i think is that google told me that lumens and FC are the same thing. Im sure the shop i used to work in was nowhere near that.
The only thing that i thought between my buddys shop and mine is i was going to use the same type of fixture(so far) and just did a base calc to get some sort of reference.... x units gave a light i was okay with and divided by square foot.... use that factor number, apply it to my foot and then double for height. sorta...


I still think im leaning towards a bunch of fixtures due to glare and percent fail and cost/item. It may be a bit more labor up front for outlets but it will also give me the chance to have more lighting control.
not interested in wireless or remote or dimmers or computer interface, just simple circuits and switchs...

 

[ccpanel]

Also-ignoring all factors of how many and where-inputting the cost, lumens, and number units gives an idea of best value per lumen assuming lumen output is reasonably similar to each other in FC on the ground at the same height. (assume)

what its also showing adding in the number of connections column is that the number of outlets or connections is similar enough between UFO or linked linear to be negligible at worst.

 

[cybrdyke]

I still think im leaning towards a bunch of fixtures due to glare and percent fail and cost/item. It may be a bit more labor up front for outlets but it will also give me the chance to have more lighting control.
not interested in wireless or remote or dimmers or computer interface, just simple circuits and switchs...

Why are you using outlets? What's the ceiling material going to be? Open? Metal? Drywall?
You'll be hanging these, correct? Not surface mounting?
The conundrum of using more low powered or fewer higher powered fixtures is common. It's practical sometimes to use both...the high powered fixtures for overall illumination of the space and lower powered fixtures for more specific needs. But if you're lighting plane is 16', you can use a lower powered highbay...like 11,000 to 15,000 lumens and use more of them to get an evenly lit area. The small linear strips aren't ideal at this height. Also, we dont consider light losses from fixture failures in our process. It's not common and most of these fixtures are easily replaced.
CD

 

[ccpanel]

Why are you using outlets? What's the ceiling material going to be? Open? Metal? Drywall?
You'll be hanging these, correct? Not surface mounting?
The conundrum of using more low powered or fewer higher powered fixtures is common. It's practical sometimes to use both...the high powered fixtures for overall illumination of the space and lower powered fixtures for more specific needs. But if you're lighting plane is 16', you can use a lower powered highbay...like 11,000 to 15,000 lumens and use more of them to get an evenly lit area. The small linear strips aren't ideal at this height. Also, we dont consider light losses from fixture failures in our process. It's not common and most of these fixtures are easily replaced.
CD

I prefer to create outlets simply for flexibility and it allows me to use a live outlet for always available power and a switched outlet in the quad for a switched accessory.
My dad was the master at over pre-planning and future proofing and i have the disease pretty bad.

My expectation of failure rate was based a little on some internet reviews of various products including name brand stuff and the expectation that due to budget i would probably end up using china lights of questionable quality.
Ive had good luck in the past and most of the china has a good warranty but... pre-planning disease.

I just bit the bullet and got 2 of the 18,000 highbay 2 foot from amazon-they are luminaire brand i think on a GOOD deal so if they arent what i want-i can use them in the awning area and its not a loss.

i expected to direct attach the linear tubes to the purlins in ceiling as i REALLY want to keep airspace clear and everything is going to at no less than 14' off the floor for clearance.

shop is red iron metal building.

the linear lights i was planning are the 9,000 and 10,000 units.
my only hesitation is that they really output that much and while i have a lux app on my hone, i dont know how true it is.

 

[Platonic Solid]

I just bit the bullet and got 2 of the 18,000 highbay 2 foot from amazon-they are luminaire brand i think on a GOOD deal so if they arent what i want-i can use them in the awning area and its not a loss.

Link to product?