Seagoon
Well-known member
Easy! You use a Lieca welder and Photoshop for a nice finish
Between 485 & 705 SQ/FT Mid-Century Moto Mecca Makeover
- Thread starter sakurama
- Start date
Workspaces between 485 and 705 squarefeet.
In my travels around the intrawebz, I came across this image which can only be one of your creationslease share with us how you did it!
Ha, not mine. Just a photoshop cut and paste. I've seen a few versions of that though.
Thanks David.
I was lucky and got the Aloris with my lathe. In fact I got a lot things with the lathe that weren't even related to the lathe and after I sold them off I almost got a free lathe. I did have an Chinese import AXA tool post on my Southbend before I had this Aloris and I hate to say it but the Aloris is worlds better.
The knockoff tended to spin when you tightened it while the Aloris doesn't move. It might have something to do with wear or set up but I've never been curious because it's always been faultless. I do buy knock off holders which don't seem to have any issues.
As for parting I use an Aloris clamping style cut off.
I've never used the insert style ones although I'd like to try one. I like these because I can swap out the width pretty quickly, extend it easily and it's quick to sharpen by just touching the face off the grinder wheel.
What I'd really like to try is a reverse parting tool. They're mounted on the back of the carriage and cut upside down and supposedly much more resistant to chatter. I'd need to make a a holder but there's a few options out there.
Has anyone here used one? What do you think?
______________________
So I had to go to Home Depot the other day to pick up one of those fluorescent light grids for a project for Nadia and I and while I was there I saw lots of options for strip LED's and figured I'd get one to try under the cabinet where the lathe is to illuminate the tool holder collection.
I tried it out when I got home and it was far too dim to be useful and so I wasn't sure what to do with it. I then remembered that I'd wired the counter to have an under counter light but never installed it because of my propensity to make things more complicated than they should be.
For some reason I wired the box under the counter but not put power to it. It took me about an hour of looking at the 50 odd wires in the switch box before I figured it out. Truly this was ages ago. Nonetheless I got power to the hidden box and simply cleaned and stuck on the LED's under the counter.
And like many things I'd wished I'd done it sooner or before but it was a simple detail that's just sort of nice.
Lucas and I have gotten a little time here and there to work on his knife. He wanted a "fuller" or blood groove so we machined that into the blade before cutting the shape out. Next is to profile the blade but I need a new attachment for the grinder to get into the small spots so that's on hold again.
I finally pulled the carb off the BBR XR100 and set it up on the mill. The intake track is 26mm in the head but the stock carb was 22mm I think. I had gotten a 24mm Mikuni flat slide a long time ago and back then everyone told me a larger carb would kill the motor so I stayed with the smaller size. Now I have seen the benefits of more flow and a restricted exhaust so I'm reversing the motor - more air in but a smaller exhaust header to increase exhaust speed.
I "oval" bored it or offset bored the carb to 26mm - after centering the mills head over the carb throat I moved the head 2mm to the top of the carb so when I bored the body I would leave the bottom untouched (essentially) and the boring would be biased towards the top of the body where it will flow more air when the throttle is wide open. This should persevere low end response with an increase in top end flow. We'll see.
I am almost done with the little XR. A few details to iron out but it should go together pretty easily.
Gregor
Sure it will [emoji1787]
Horror Business
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2014
- Messages
- 505
Ha. Mission Creep, Mission Creep...
I give it 10 more Gregor posts before he says:
"So, I decided the only way to get around that problem was to get a billet and mill my own engine cases..."
Brian R
Well-known member
I’m going with, yes this new bored carb works well but to really get the most out of my little XR I’m going to mill my own flat side Lectron carbs....
Kiwi Canuck
Well-known member
Thanks David.
I was lucky and got the Aloris with my lathe. In fact I got a lot things with the lathe that weren't even related to the lathe and after I sold them off I almost got a free lathe. I did have an Chinese import AXA tool post on my Southbend before I had this Aloris and I hate to say it but the Aloris is worlds better.
The knockoff tended to spin when you tightened it while the Aloris doesn't move. It might have something to do with wear or set up but I've never been curious because it's always been faultless. I do buy knock off holders which don't seem to have any issues.
As for parting I use an Aloris clamping style cut off.
I've never used the insert style ones although I'd like to try one. I like these because I can swap out the width pretty quickly, extend it easily and it's quick to sharpen by just touching the face off the grinder wheel.
What I'd really like to try is a reverse parting tool. They're mounted on the back of the carriage and cut upside down and supposedly much more resistant to chatter. I'd need to make a a holder but there's a few options out there.
Has anyone here used one? What do you think?
Gregor, thanks for the response regarding lathe parting tools.
I agree that the Aloris QCTP is a very nice upgrade to a lathe, silky smooth and feels very solid.
I've been searching the internet and found a few more posts on Hobby Machinist and a few Youtube videos that give various methods and recommended holders to use and some to avoid.
The online threads on insert types and specs makes my head spin, so the HSS blade type parting tools looks more appealing until I read all the horror stories about chatter and breaking tools.
I'm still no wiser than before, but it has motivated me to buy something just to get started and try something to get my feet wet.
I've ordered a parting tool setup from Amazon.ca using one of these with holders with GTN3 carbide inserts, ( I think that means the insert is 3mm wide) it's similar to the Sandvik Coromant but comes with inserts so I can try it, where-as with the Sandvik holder I'm at a loss as to which inserts to order.
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07F8DNXTK/?tag=atomicindus04-20
Seems the holders are sized so you buy a different holder for each width of insert, this one can part off material up to 1.5" diameter as that's about the largest solid material I'm using right now, so hopefully it works for that.
Looks like you have an Aloris BXA-7 holder, (the type that holds the blade at an angle, rather than horizontal) funnily enough that was one of the holders recommended not to buy by a few guys who had how to videos, as the blade height changes every time you sharpen it or adjust it.
I guess if the setup works and other than the inconvenience it seems like a pretty common setup and one of the better options without going to carbide inserts.
Hopefully others can chime in, maybe Mike from Zmotosports as I see him on this thread sometimes.
David.
Last edited:
You guys way over estimate me. Although I am considering a Lectron. It turns out I just pierced the backside of the body but only by the tiniest amount. I think I'll just JB Weld over that for now and see how the bike runs.
But it is together and does run although I had a sticking float so I reset the height and it seems fine now. This carb was always finicky on idle so that's not a new thing.
A lot of things when I started seemed to be more hassle than they're worth - like grinding HHS tooling. I think inserts are certainly the way to go but I share your frustration with the nomenclature. It's just letter soup with all the variations and they're not friendly at all to "normal" people. Here's a decent reference: http://www.helmancnc.com/general-turning-insert-nomenclature-for-cnc-dummies/
That said the reason I've not gone to an insert for parting is two fold - laziness first of all and the desire to do a rear mounted parting solution. The latter is of course more complicated so it never happens.
I always keep a file and small metal ruler on top of the lathe in the tool tray spot. It's the quickest and easiest way to set all tool heights. I think I covered it in a IG video but they don't stick around.
Put the ruler between your part and tool and run your cross slide in to just pinch it. If the ruler tips back lower your tool holder and if it tips forward raise it. I never tighten the nuts on the height adjustments so it's always just a quick spin with the fingers to raise or lower the nut.
When it's vertical it's centered. It's so easy. The advantage is that I can keep the HHS blade short to reduce chatter and extend it when I need the reach. Sharpening is just running the face against the grinder wheel. I have a few different widths but tend to use the 3/32's most often. I was experimenting with a 1/16th blade and I did snap one spectacularly a while back and went back to 3/32 as the good compromise.
All that said I want to try an insert for parting. I'm curious as to others experience as well. I'm sure Sean has good tips because Ti isn't easy to machine.
One lesson I learned with stainless was constant cutting pressure. If you don't put enough pressure on the tool to get it cutting immediately it will work harden the stainless and instantly your tool get's dull and the stainless becomes uncuttable.
Gregor
fastev
Well-known member
Vertigo Cycles
Well-known member
I don't know if my tips are any good as I see parting success as being very machine dependent. You sort of have to figure out what works best for the machine you have. The stiffer it is, the easier time you'll have parting off stubborn materials.
At a minimum, I'd say the two most important things would be to make sure that your parting tool as as close to perfectly perpendicular to the spindle as you can get it...every time...the only exception would be if you're parting off a thin wall tube, in which case it's not too important. The other thing is to take the time to center your tool height. Using the ruler trick is a good start, chucking up some soft material and skimming the face a few times until you get rid of the ****** is another way to do it, but it won't work well with the HSS tools as they tend to flex significantly.
I keep to different profile inserts...90° and 4°. When the tool is set up perfectly, you're using the 4° insert, and you get your feeds/speeds just right, you can drop a part with a near perfect finish. Saves a lot of time and you can be sure that the opposite faces usually going to be more parallel than if you have to re-chuck your part and face it off. If you have a DRO or Trav-A-Dial, it makes it fairly easy to part off to within 0.001". I have some photos or a video on my IG page not too far back that shows how I do it.
Recently I stuffed a pipe cleaner into the tip of my lube bottle. I hold the bottle upside down with the pipe cleaner in the groove. A small but consistent amount of lube wicks into the groove and keeps it lubricated. For me, it's easier and neater than a brush.
Speeds and feed rate are pretty important too. Sometimes you can avoid the chatter by feeding higher than you might initially think you should. For ti and stainless I usually run the spindle between 200-250 rpm for anything 1.5-2" in diameter, and around 350 for anything under an inch. Softer materials like aluminum and brass you can run it at almost any speed you want if your machine is sufficiently rigid.
If you do go carbide, get yourself one of those little handheld lighted magnifiers. I think mine is 20x. They're good for keeping an eye on the cutting edge. You can sometimes lose a chunk so small that you can't see it with your naked eye, but it'll make a big difference in cutting performance.
I've found my fingernail is a very good way to check the edge of a carbide insert (turning, parting, grooving, whatever). Run your nail along the edge of the insert. If you feel any snags or rough spots, the corner is worn. Carbide inserts also often have a coating that makes spotting a chip easier.
E12-535iTurbo
Well-known member
This tread is slowly turning into a bible. Thanks so much everybody!
So not as much time in the shop because I've been shooting my normal Oprah job, that I'd shoot in the NYC studio, here at home as part of the "social distancing" thing. Which is really great because those shoots are a big part of my income. I was pretty worried I'd lose those but this one was a family affair with Nadia and Judiaann helping with the styling and my gear taking over the whole dining room.
But after a day of shooting or when waiting for approval on shots I get out to the garage to relax and do a bit of work. The XR is winding down with just details to address. I've taken it out on a test ride around the neighborhood and it works really well. It's a little slow off the bottom (but better than it was) but it flat out rips up top and I really think that the smaller diameter exhaust and larger carb is helping mid - top. It is certainly about 20% more powerful than before and it really revs out. It's a real motorcycle now, albeit a smaller one. I'm excited for Lara to be able to ride it.
I had welded a stainless hoop previously and while it was functional I didn't like the look of a shiny metal hoop on the back. Plus the new rear fender was a bit larger and I didn't want to cut that up. So I welded up a small metal bracket that tucked just under the fender. I am trying to put a bit more effort into this bike to step it up from where it was.
Painted black it disappears but practically it's exactly perfect. When you lift a dirt bike you grab the fender because it's the perfect height and place to lift. Generally it's just a flimsy plastic part that can break and sometimes there's a poorly thought out handle. This is right against the fender but invisible from most angles and I'm very happy with it. A real pain to fab because it was all 7 degree angles but it turned out great.
I got my rims back from powder and the color isn't exactly right but it's close enough. I've wanted to try a set of rims that are half and half so this seemed the right time. While the mini tracker is a bit more subtle I wanted this bike to be flashy.
Because this is a budget build (relatively speaking) I reused the rims and as many spokes as I could as the spokes were stainless. The old ******* were plated steel and rusted so they were all replaced with new stainless. The new spokes were super clean so in order to equalize the look I decided to polish all the spokes. Also because I don't like cleaning spokes and polished spokes resist dirt and clean up much better because of the smoother surface.
Plus, I have a bad *** buffer in the shop. Let's be real.
I used a drill to hold and spin the spoke and then this scrap of aluminum to support the other end. This works two fold as a great method to quickly polish them but also because polishing generates a huge amount of heat and the spokes got way too hot to hold.
The two wheels that came with the buffer are spiral sewn and one was used with red compound and the other green. I needed to look up the colors but red is a general coarse compound for soft metals and I started with that before realizing that green is actually exclusively for stainless so I swapped to that wheel. I should probably print out the chart and put it in that cabinet.
Also, you should keep each compound to one wheel exclusively. The more aggressive compounds like black are used on the hardest wheels like the sisal wheel. The finer polishes on soft unsewn wheels.
Caswell makes a great little PDF book (Intro to Buffing and Polishing)that is a very good guide to polishing. They're also where I got my extra wheels and compounds and they're one of the few places that have wheels for the super large axles on the Baldor.
I think these are my 5th and 6th wheels to build. I have to say it was much easier than before. The way that the rims and hubs are drilled makes it pretty obvious. I tried (for the third time) to put the spokes in the whole hub and that was a disaster. I've come to accept that I do one set (left side bottom for instance) and then the next layer on that side (left side top) and then flip the wheel and repeat.
I then just tighten the spokes up enough that the threads are even (say four showing) and then just work my way around. I haven't figured out a method or sequence so I jump back and forth from taking out hop to working on wobble. I'm pretty sure you're supposed to do one before the other but I couldn't find any info. I use the torque wrench when I'm close so they're all snug but then I tend to tighten them more as I go.
I have this collection of miscellaneous indicator parts/clamps and a magnetic base that had a broken arm and I machined a couple of small parts to make this truing indicator. I decided to not bother with the dial indicator because it seemed excessive and also because these are old rims and getting old rims perfect is nearly impossible.
I bought these CRF250 brake parts for the mini tracker but when I decided to skip front brakes they went into the spares box. If you have two sets of wheels it's really nice to have two sets of brakes. Supermotor and dirt have very different needs for braking and a dirt brake on pavement is woefully underpowered and a SM brake on dirt is spooky. So this set up is a homegrown combo - bigger caliper and larger full floating disk that should be about perfect. The giant brake I'd devised for it a few years ago was too much brake so this is going to be about right. I will run a second master and brake line as well so the whole set up is one clean balanced swap.
I just need tires and tubes and it should be done. Also some numbers.
I'm pretty excited to wrap this up and get the BMW on the lift.
Gregor
But after a day of shooting or when waiting for approval on shots I get out to the garage to relax and do a bit of work. The XR is winding down with just details to address. I've taken it out on a test ride around the neighborhood and it works really well. It's a little slow off the bottom (but better than it was) but it flat out rips up top and I really think that the smaller diameter exhaust and larger carb is helping mid - top. It is certainly about 20% more powerful than before and it really revs out. It's a real motorcycle now, albeit a smaller one. I'm excited for Lara to be able to ride it.
I had welded a stainless hoop previously and while it was functional I didn't like the look of a shiny metal hoop on the back. Plus the new rear fender was a bit larger and I didn't want to cut that up. So I welded up a small metal bracket that tucked just under the fender. I am trying to put a bit more effort into this bike to step it up from where it was.
Painted black it disappears but practically it's exactly perfect. When you lift a dirt bike you grab the fender because it's the perfect height and place to lift. Generally it's just a flimsy plastic part that can break and sometimes there's a poorly thought out handle. This is right against the fender but invisible from most angles and I'm very happy with it. A real pain to fab because it was all 7 degree angles but it turned out great.
I got my rims back from powder and the color isn't exactly right but it's close enough. I've wanted to try a set of rims that are half and half so this seemed the right time. While the mini tracker is a bit more subtle I wanted this bike to be flashy.
Because this is a budget build (relatively speaking) I reused the rims and as many spokes as I could as the spokes were stainless. The old ******* were plated steel and rusted so they were all replaced with new stainless. The new spokes were super clean so in order to equalize the look I decided to polish all the spokes. Also because I don't like cleaning spokes and polished spokes resist dirt and clean up much better because of the smoother surface.
Plus, I have a bad *** buffer in the shop. Let's be real.
I used a drill to hold and spin the spoke and then this scrap of aluminum to support the other end. This works two fold as a great method to quickly polish them but also because polishing generates a huge amount of heat and the spokes got way too hot to hold.
The two wheels that came with the buffer are spiral sewn and one was used with red compound and the other green. I needed to look up the colors but red is a general coarse compound for soft metals and I started with that before realizing that green is actually exclusively for stainless so I swapped to that wheel. I should probably print out the chart and put it in that cabinet.
Also, you should keep each compound to one wheel exclusively. The more aggressive compounds like black are used on the hardest wheels like the sisal wheel. The finer polishes on soft unsewn wheels.
Caswell makes a great little PDF book (Intro to Buffing and Polishing)that is a very good guide to polishing. They're also where I got my extra wheels and compounds and they're one of the few places that have wheels for the super large axles on the Baldor.
I think these are my 5th and 6th wheels to build. I have to say it was much easier than before. The way that the rims and hubs are drilled makes it pretty obvious. I tried (for the third time) to put the spokes in the whole hub and that was a disaster. I've come to accept that I do one set (left side bottom for instance) and then the next layer on that side (left side top) and then flip the wheel and repeat.
I then just tighten the spokes up enough that the threads are even (say four showing) and then just work my way around. I haven't figured out a method or sequence so I jump back and forth from taking out hop to working on wobble. I'm pretty sure you're supposed to do one before the other but I couldn't find any info. I use the torque wrench when I'm close so they're all snug but then I tend to tighten them more as I go.
I have this collection of miscellaneous indicator parts/clamps and a magnetic base that had a broken arm and I machined a couple of small parts to make this truing indicator. I decided to not bother with the dial indicator because it seemed excessive and also because these are old rims and getting old rims perfect is nearly impossible.
I bought these CRF250 brake parts for the mini tracker but when I decided to skip front brakes they went into the spares box. If you have two sets of wheels it's really nice to have two sets of brakes. Supermotor and dirt have very different needs for braking and a dirt brake on pavement is woefully underpowered and a SM brake on dirt is spooky. So this set up is a homegrown combo - bigger caliper and larger full floating disk that should be about perfect. The giant brake I'd devised for it a few years ago was too much brake so this is going to be about right. I will run a second master and brake line as well so the whole set up is one clean balanced swap.
I just need tires and tubes and it should be done. Also some numbers.
I'm pretty excited to wrap this up and get the BMW on the lift.
Gregor
Modern Jess
Well-known member
This is something I can identify with on so many levels.
wasfast
Well-known member
Menzerna also makes some really good compounds for polishing
Modern Jess
Well-known member
So while the world burns around us I made some progress that felt palpable this past week. Ironically while sneaking into the garage between shots for Oprah.
One small project that I was dying to quickly knock out I did on Friday.
At 10 Nadia has proven that she's capable of using good markers and not destroying them. I bought a lot of NOS Copic's off ebay for pretty cheap - a bit over a buck a marker. They've been in the plastic bag they were shipped in for a while now. I wanted to make a container and it seemed that fluorescent light grate was the right size. I got a square from Home Depot and cut some small sections to test.
My initial idea was to separate them like above. I realized with the test that a cap could come off removing the pen and it would be trapped. The other was that the tolerance was tight enough that when the grates were that far apart I couldn't actually remove a pen.
I was glad to have made the test part.
It turned out that one grate and the pens wobbled too much, two grates with any separation made them too tight but two stacked gave just enough that you could grab a marker but they also were held pretty tightly.
This is a 2mm deep dado to hold the grate. The bottom is a rabbet for a 6mm back. I lifted the grate just 6mm off the bottom to help keep the pens from tipping.
I find that I now approach wood with the same precision as I do metal and my results are much better. I wish I'd done that when I was building cabinets...
Nadia actually put all the pens in according to the Copic "hex" chart that groups colors more by similarity than numbers or colors. It may seem strange but it makes sense when you're drawing. The markers are held tight enough to be placed on their sides and not fall out which is nice. I'm glad I spent the last couple of years with just a blue, yellow and gray - I feel ready to add to my pallet and while the pinks/purples were more for Nadia I'm looking forward to playing with the colors.
So. One small project quickly knocked out. No fancy joinery - just scraps of baltic birch and screws. Done.
I got the tires mounted on the new rims and that was pretty much that on Lara's XR100 but the stupid squares of the graphics not lining up was bugging me. And a lot of other people as well. I'd lived with it for the last 15 years because it was just a play bike but now that I'd put some real effort into it...
I pulled the cover off and used a heat gun to help stretch it a bit tighter. Perfect? Not quite but it's good enough. I have to say that for what started out as just fixing a rusted pipe and faded rims this mission creep turned out really well and I just love the look of the little bike.
I'm still waiting on a new front plate and then I've got new numbers for it but it's pretty done. I was invited out to a secret private flat track by my friend Scott and it was the first time I have done anything since the 2nd of March. It was really nice to ride a bike and aside from stripping out the exhaust flange bolt the bike ran great. I'll helicoil that this week.
Sadly the new XR mini framer did not run. The swapped CDI didn't help and I'm out of ideas so I'm going to take it to a shop and see if fresh eyes can find something I can't.
With the BBR bike done I can finally clear the lift for the BMW and fixing the swingarm.
Gregor
One small project that I was dying to quickly knock out I did on Friday.
At 10 Nadia has proven that she's capable of using good markers and not destroying them. I bought a lot of NOS Copic's off ebay for pretty cheap - a bit over a buck a marker. They've been in the plastic bag they were shipped in for a while now. I wanted to make a container and it seemed that fluorescent light grate was the right size. I got a square from Home Depot and cut some small sections to test.
My initial idea was to separate them like above. I realized with the test that a cap could come off removing the pen and it would be trapped. The other was that the tolerance was tight enough that when the grates were that far apart I couldn't actually remove a pen.
I was glad to have made the test part.
It turned out that one grate and the pens wobbled too much, two grates with any separation made them too tight but two stacked gave just enough that you could grab a marker but they also were held pretty tightly.
This is a 2mm deep dado to hold the grate. The bottom is a rabbet for a 6mm back. I lifted the grate just 6mm off the bottom to help keep the pens from tipping.
I find that I now approach wood with the same precision as I do metal and my results are much better. I wish I'd done that when I was building cabinets...
Nadia actually put all the pens in according to the Copic "hex" chart that groups colors more by similarity than numbers or colors. It may seem strange but it makes sense when you're drawing. The markers are held tight enough to be placed on their sides and not fall out which is nice. I'm glad I spent the last couple of years with just a blue, yellow and gray - I feel ready to add to my pallet and while the pinks/purples were more for Nadia I'm looking forward to playing with the colors.
So. One small project quickly knocked out. No fancy joinery - just scraps of baltic birch and screws. Done.
I got the tires mounted on the new rims and that was pretty much that on Lara's XR100 but the stupid squares of the graphics not lining up was bugging me. And a lot of other people as well. I'd lived with it for the last 15 years because it was just a play bike but now that I'd put some real effort into it...
I pulled the cover off and used a heat gun to help stretch it a bit tighter. Perfect? Not quite but it's good enough. I have to say that for what started out as just fixing a rusted pipe and faded rims this mission creep turned out really well and I just love the look of the little bike.
I'm still waiting on a new front plate and then I've got new numbers for it but it's pretty done. I was invited out to a secret private flat track by my friend Scott and it was the first time I have done anything since the 2nd of March. It was really nice to ride a bike and aside from stripping out the exhaust flange bolt the bike ran great. I'll helicoil that this week.
Sadly the new XR mini framer did not run. The swapped CDI didn't help and I'm out of ideas so I'm going to take it to a shop and see if fresh eyes can find something I can't.
With the BBR bike done I can finally clear the lift for the BMW and fixing the swingarm.
Gregor
quadrcr87
Well-known member
Looks great Gregor! I don't think I have seen the two tone wheels before but it works well on the BBR.
Andrew
Andrew
tj675
Well-known member
You guys way over estimate me. Although I am considering a Lectron. It turns out I just pierced the backside of the body but only by the tiniest amount. I think I'll just JB Weld over that for now and see how the bike runs.
Gregor
JB Weld will definitely do the trick. There is a tuner in the UK by the name of Frank Wrathall that D shaped a set of Honda RS250 carbs for me in 1997. Frank used JB Weld on the top corners of the carb bodies to fill quite large holes. That bike made it’s way to a friend, and when I was looking at the carbs a couple years ago they still looked the same as they did in 1997.
The BBR bike looks great!
gearhead1960
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I think you need to rotate the wheels 90 degrees for affect. It would make the bike seem in motion whereas the vertical alignment of the black/red stops the motion of the bike. Perhaps try one shot with all black on bottom and another with one black on bottom and one on top (ying and yang effect).....
Modern Jess
Well-known member
Hot!
I have been working on a few small things in the last week but I think, like most of you, I've been watching the world burn. I have tried very hard to not bring politics into this thread for a lot of reasons: it's divisive, it's polarizing and most of all because for most of us this forum is an escape from what ever we're doing in our lives that we need a break from - family, work or the news.
But. But I can't not say what I feel at this moment. I think if you've followed along you know that I am not a rash person - that I tend to think things through. You also probably know that I'm not all that interested in "likes" or subscribers or the opportunity to monetize that. I'm particularly bad at that in fact.
I am not even sure what it is I want to say here because we have become so ensconced in our "camps" that there's not very much opportunity to actually listen. I have zero idea how many people subscribe to this thread - zero. It might be a thousand or maybe more. I do know that it's a thoughtful group and we share a community.
Community is the key. When I look out at the things that are wrong in the world I follow it backwards to see where things went wrong and generally it comes back to that. I grew up in a small town - very small - 300 people. In Westcliffe, Colorado. As you might expect it was a very conservative town politically being a ranching community. My father was a hippie. Also in the army. Those weren't mutually exclusive back then. In that small town people looked after each other because the town was too small not to.
If someone got a flat tire the next person along would stop to help. Politics didn't enter into that. If a fence needed to be mended people would help - cattle weren't republicans or democrats. You'd never flip someone off or be a jerk because you'd end up seeing them at the post office the next day - that is the kind of accountability that comes in a community. It's much like a family but larger.
If you follow me on Instagram you'll have seen the following photos. This is that story but with more words - perhaps a discussion.
So that's me in 1986 in my second year of college. I was very serious about being a photojournalist.
There was a big party every year in the spring called "College Days" and it was a music concert and of course involved a lot of drinking. I was covering it because taking pictures was my way of overcoming shyness. It was easy to talk to people when I had a camera but harder without one. At one point the party moved off campus and a group of drunk frat boys made a fire in the street and then started throwing trash on it and eventually ripped some fence down to burn it. No one was hurt but it was the natural byproduct of drunken kids and a desire to "**** **** up." I climbed a balcony with my camera and got this shot of a seriously drunk kid dancing on the boards of the fire. It was a pretty dramatic shot and it ended up running on the front page of our student paper and also the front page of the Denver Post, our big state paper. It was my first major front page shot.
Cops eventually came in and broke it up. I was friendly with the cops and at one point while taking their photos they did this pose. We all thought it was amusing and they asked for a print of the shot. Wanting to be a team player and also not seeing anything nefarious with it I gave them a print.
Next year there was a buzz about the "College Daze Riots" and that it was going to happen again. I can honestly say that my photo from 86 is probably what took this from being a small nothing to becoming a "thing" that people were talking about and planning for. Both sides it turns out.
Because of the previous year the cops had stepped up their equipment and their numbers. College kids who were interested in "******* **** up" came from across the state to see if things would get out of hand. I remember after the concerts everyone went back to the off campus streets where the bonfire had happened the year before but there was a much larger crowd. Both cops and kids. It was a lot like a junior high dance - lots of people standing around knowing why they were there but too afraid to be the first ones on the dance floor. Eventually with enough alcohol the kids started breaking **** and trying to start a fire. Cops let it go for a bit then when the crowd blocked the fire trucks they came in and started arresting kids.
What I found out later that night was that much like the kids who'd traveled from afar to be part of a "riot" and were looking for trouble the cops had taken my "see no evil" photo from the year before and made t-shirts that said, "I cracked skulls at College Daze 86!" and they wore them under their vests and shirts. I saw them but they wouldn't let me take a photo - and I was not savvy enough to sneak a shot. As you can see I was using flash because there was no such thing as "fast film" back then. In a small way this was an "us vs. them" mentality. Two communities, not one, opposed not unified.
This was my first introduction to what was the "fraternity" of the police. It felt uncomfortable but it also felt established and settled. This is how it is - fall in line. I bring this up because I knew this was wrong but it was so pervasive, so all encompassing that it didn't seem like something that could change and certainly nothing I could change. There was no point being this single voice saying, "Hey, this isn't right. We should be doing something about this"
If you were that squeaky wheel you'd be shut down. Police would take your press pass (Press passes are issued by the police - let that sink in) and you'd be in the cold.
Years later after I was living in NYC I had a friend who was a "cop". He was actually an eye surgeon who had one day done an operation on a sergeant and saved his vision. The sargeant made him a cop - like a real cop. He became a full police officer and was given a badge that said "Surgeon" and in exchange he would do any eye work that the cops needed. Along with the badge they gave him a gun too. No training, no academy - here's your badge and your gun. He lost the gun twice...
We would ride motorcycles together and he would speed, ride on the sidewalk, cut traffic - whatever. The key with riding with him was that you couldn't fall behind because when we were pulled over, and we were always pulled over, we had to let Gerry be the one to talk to the furious officer. One look at the badge that said "Surgeon" and the anger turned to smiles and we got a pat on the back and off we went. Feckless.
I got PBA cards from him and that was the end of me ever getting tickets. "My friend is a surgeon, he's the guy that sews you up if you get shot..." and off I went.
This is an example of favoritism and how an insular community protects itself self.
In this thread we've seen this and there wasn't a person not upset that Jorge was pulled over, put in jail and deported. But not before taking all of his cash - almost $10,000. You can say he was illegal, you can say that what he did was wrong but there's no way you can justify that the cops stole all his money. He was doubly victimized by the fact that his situation prevented him from being able to fight back against this. Cops knew that. The history of Civil Asset Forfeiture is littered with police using this power to exploit and take advantage of people.
Now let's circle back to where I grew up. Imagine being in that town of 300 people. Let's imagine that Jorge is working with a local person on their house. People know him, they see him at church, at the grocery. He's part of the community. He could still be illegal but because he's part of the community what would happen if the local sheriff pulled him over arrested him and took all his money? People would be upset. The sheriff would be shunned at the cafe, the post office and his kids would get teased at school. He'd know this before he pulled him over and it would change his behavior. He'd weigh out the balance of these things against the crime and he'd give him a warning and tell him to stay off the streets. The stability of the community would be more important than whatever traffic infraction was committed. In Jorge's case I think a brake light?
All of use can see very plainly right now the situation. It's not a republican one or a democratic one although it tends to shape up that way. It's a moral situation. It's a lack of community situation. If you don't see black people as part of our larger community than you don't see anything wrong with them being mistreated.
History is long with injustices that are tolerated until a breaking point is reached. Things seem intractable until suddenly they aren't. Unchangable until suddenly the injustice that you know all along has been there is exposed and enough people around you are speaking that it doesn't feel uncomfortable to do so.
Now to the question of politics. While I am unquestionably the child of hippie parents and my views are liberal I am also a pretty critical thinker. I like a lot of conservatives principles and I have fair number of conservative friends. Nothing about our current president is in line with conservative values. With any values frankly.
I have always been told that in our system of government presidents don't have that much power. That has turned out to not be true. People act the way they do not so much because of some deep seated value system but based on whether or not their community is going to accept them. No one wants to be shunned. If our president says it's okay to smash some skulls or calls black people thugs and mexican's rapists - then it's okay for me to do that too. I'm part of his community and I'm going to fall in line. If I don't believe that I'll just stay quiet.
30 or more years ago our country shared a sense of community by the virtue of sharing a limited amount of media. There were three television networks, they were run by professional journalists and we could see the news and agree or disagree but we all saw the same reality.
We don't share reality anymore. Most people are getting their "news" from Facebook or social media and those aren't journalists - those are programs that make money based on you clicking through. Algorithms decide what you see. Algorithms that want to reinforce and feed you what you're already predisposed to believing. Don't fall into the trap of believing everything you're seeing in your feeds. Do research, search for facts and think critically. Don't get your news from FOX - in fact don't get it from a single place but from a few places that employ journalists and not algorithms. Get your news from print not TV. There's time for context in print.
If I have a point here (and maybe I don't) it's that you know, in your heart you know, that this is a system that is rigged. It is rigged against people of color and has been for a very long time. More than that it is a system rigged against people without money, power or connections and finally it is rigged against people who aren't cops. Or perhaps it's a system that actively works to protect the fraternity.
If you made it this far I'm impressed. You have an open mind and you most likely gave me the chance because of this community that we share.
My best friend when I grew up outside of Philadelphia (before moving to Colorado) was a racist. His father was a racist. Not a quiet one either but a big man with a crew cut who never used the word black and always used the n-word. I was very scared of him. My parents had a lot of black friends. Every day after school my brother sister and I would spend the afternoon with Mrs. Cook a black lady across the street until our parents came home. Our babysitter Josie the coolest person I ever knew and she had a huge afro and she is a friend to this day - 50 years later. My parents weren't racists and despite my best friend being one I knew lots of black people and I knew his hate was learned. Racism is learned behavior.
It can be unlearned.
This right now is a moment of change. It's not a time to sit back and see how things shake out. You know what has been happening to black people... forever, is wrong. You know that the person in the white house is wrong, is a hypocrite and is working, actively working to divide any sense of community that is left in this country. He had a chance to unify and he chose to divide.
All of us have seen this and done nothing. And that's what's happened. Nothing.
Right now is the time to stop doing nothing. If you're a republican and are disgusted by Trump then perhaps it's time to switch parties for a cycle - not sit out but actually vote for Biden. If you're a democrat in a blue state help get people registered to vote. If you think Trump is doing a great job... well, I just don't know quite what to say to that. You might want to think about why one party wants more people to vote and one party wants less people to vote. Maybe think about if you want to be part of the "republican" community or the larger community that is this country.
Change happens when enough people see an injustice and finally get up off their asses. I'm hoping that all of you try to make some kind of change happen. It could be going to a march to help increase the awareness, it could be donating to the ACLU or it could be just listening to and accepting the stories your hearing from black people.
Most of all I want you to do SOMETHING.
Gregor
But. But I can't not say what I feel at this moment. I think if you've followed along you know that I am not a rash person - that I tend to think things through. You also probably know that I'm not all that interested in "likes" or subscribers or the opportunity to monetize that. I'm particularly bad at that in fact.
I am not even sure what it is I want to say here because we have become so ensconced in our "camps" that there's not very much opportunity to actually listen. I have zero idea how many people subscribe to this thread - zero. It might be a thousand or maybe more. I do know that it's a thoughtful group and we share a community.
Community is the key. When I look out at the things that are wrong in the world I follow it backwards to see where things went wrong and generally it comes back to that. I grew up in a small town - very small - 300 people. In Westcliffe, Colorado. As you might expect it was a very conservative town politically being a ranching community. My father was a hippie. Also in the army. Those weren't mutually exclusive back then. In that small town people looked after each other because the town was too small not to.
If someone got a flat tire the next person along would stop to help. Politics didn't enter into that. If a fence needed to be mended people would help - cattle weren't republicans or democrats. You'd never flip someone off or be a jerk because you'd end up seeing them at the post office the next day - that is the kind of accountability that comes in a community. It's much like a family but larger.
If you follow me on Instagram you'll have seen the following photos. This is that story but with more words - perhaps a discussion.
So that's me in 1986 in my second year of college. I was very serious about being a photojournalist.
There was a big party every year in the spring called "College Days" and it was a music concert and of course involved a lot of drinking. I was covering it because taking pictures was my way of overcoming shyness. It was easy to talk to people when I had a camera but harder without one. At one point the party moved off campus and a group of drunk frat boys made a fire in the street and then started throwing trash on it and eventually ripped some fence down to burn it. No one was hurt but it was the natural byproduct of drunken kids and a desire to "**** **** up." I climbed a balcony with my camera and got this shot of a seriously drunk kid dancing on the boards of the fire. It was a pretty dramatic shot and it ended up running on the front page of our student paper and also the front page of the Denver Post, our big state paper. It was my first major front page shot.
Cops eventually came in and broke it up. I was friendly with the cops and at one point while taking their photos they did this pose. We all thought it was amusing and they asked for a print of the shot. Wanting to be a team player and also not seeing anything nefarious with it I gave them a print.
Next year there was a buzz about the "College Daze Riots" and that it was going to happen again. I can honestly say that my photo from 86 is probably what took this from being a small nothing to becoming a "thing" that people were talking about and planning for. Both sides it turns out.
Because of the previous year the cops had stepped up their equipment and their numbers. College kids who were interested in "******* **** up" came from across the state to see if things would get out of hand. I remember after the concerts everyone went back to the off campus streets where the bonfire had happened the year before but there was a much larger crowd. Both cops and kids. It was a lot like a junior high dance - lots of people standing around knowing why they were there but too afraid to be the first ones on the dance floor. Eventually with enough alcohol the kids started breaking **** and trying to start a fire. Cops let it go for a bit then when the crowd blocked the fire trucks they came in and started arresting kids.
What I found out later that night was that much like the kids who'd traveled from afar to be part of a "riot" and were looking for trouble the cops had taken my "see no evil" photo from the year before and made t-shirts that said, "I cracked skulls at College Daze 86!" and they wore them under their vests and shirts. I saw them but they wouldn't let me take a photo - and I was not savvy enough to sneak a shot. As you can see I was using flash because there was no such thing as "fast film" back then. In a small way this was an "us vs. them" mentality. Two communities, not one, opposed not unified.
This was my first introduction to what was the "fraternity" of the police. It felt uncomfortable but it also felt established and settled. This is how it is - fall in line. I bring this up because I knew this was wrong but it was so pervasive, so all encompassing that it didn't seem like something that could change and certainly nothing I could change. There was no point being this single voice saying, "Hey, this isn't right. We should be doing something about this"
If you were that squeaky wheel you'd be shut down. Police would take your press pass (Press passes are issued by the police - let that sink in) and you'd be in the cold.
Years later after I was living in NYC I had a friend who was a "cop". He was actually an eye surgeon who had one day done an operation on a sergeant and saved his vision. The sargeant made him a cop - like a real cop. He became a full police officer and was given a badge that said "Surgeon" and in exchange he would do any eye work that the cops needed. Along with the badge they gave him a gun too. No training, no academy - here's your badge and your gun. He lost the gun twice...
We would ride motorcycles together and he would speed, ride on the sidewalk, cut traffic - whatever. The key with riding with him was that you couldn't fall behind because when we were pulled over, and we were always pulled over, we had to let Gerry be the one to talk to the furious officer. One look at the badge that said "Surgeon" and the anger turned to smiles and we got a pat on the back and off we went. Feckless.
I got PBA cards from him and that was the end of me ever getting tickets. "My friend is a surgeon, he's the guy that sews you up if you get shot..." and off I went.
This is an example of favoritism and how an insular community protects itself self.
In this thread we've seen this and there wasn't a person not upset that Jorge was pulled over, put in jail and deported. But not before taking all of his cash - almost $10,000. You can say he was illegal, you can say that what he did was wrong but there's no way you can justify that the cops stole all his money. He was doubly victimized by the fact that his situation prevented him from being able to fight back against this. Cops knew that. The history of Civil Asset Forfeiture is littered with police using this power to exploit and take advantage of people.
Now let's circle back to where I grew up. Imagine being in that town of 300 people. Let's imagine that Jorge is working with a local person on their house. People know him, they see him at church, at the grocery. He's part of the community. He could still be illegal but because he's part of the community what would happen if the local sheriff pulled him over arrested him and took all his money? People would be upset. The sheriff would be shunned at the cafe, the post office and his kids would get teased at school. He'd know this before he pulled him over and it would change his behavior. He'd weigh out the balance of these things against the crime and he'd give him a warning and tell him to stay off the streets. The stability of the community would be more important than whatever traffic infraction was committed. In Jorge's case I think a brake light?
All of use can see very plainly right now the situation. It's not a republican one or a democratic one although it tends to shape up that way. It's a moral situation. It's a lack of community situation. If you don't see black people as part of our larger community than you don't see anything wrong with them being mistreated.
History is long with injustices that are tolerated until a breaking point is reached. Things seem intractable until suddenly they aren't. Unchangable until suddenly the injustice that you know all along has been there is exposed and enough people around you are speaking that it doesn't feel uncomfortable to do so.
Now to the question of politics. While I am unquestionably the child of hippie parents and my views are liberal I am also a pretty critical thinker. I like a lot of conservatives principles and I have fair number of conservative friends. Nothing about our current president is in line with conservative values. With any values frankly.
I have always been told that in our system of government presidents don't have that much power. That has turned out to not be true. People act the way they do not so much because of some deep seated value system but based on whether or not their community is going to accept them. No one wants to be shunned. If our president says it's okay to smash some skulls or calls black people thugs and mexican's rapists - then it's okay for me to do that too. I'm part of his community and I'm going to fall in line. If I don't believe that I'll just stay quiet.
30 or more years ago our country shared a sense of community by the virtue of sharing a limited amount of media. There were three television networks, they were run by professional journalists and we could see the news and agree or disagree but we all saw the same reality.
We don't share reality anymore. Most people are getting their "news" from Facebook or social media and those aren't journalists - those are programs that make money based on you clicking through. Algorithms decide what you see. Algorithms that want to reinforce and feed you what you're already predisposed to believing. Don't fall into the trap of believing everything you're seeing in your feeds. Do research, search for facts and think critically. Don't get your news from FOX - in fact don't get it from a single place but from a few places that employ journalists and not algorithms. Get your news from print not TV. There's time for context in print.
If I have a point here (and maybe I don't) it's that you know, in your heart you know, that this is a system that is rigged. It is rigged against people of color and has been for a very long time. More than that it is a system rigged against people without money, power or connections and finally it is rigged against people who aren't cops. Or perhaps it's a system that actively works to protect the fraternity.
If you made it this far I'm impressed. You have an open mind and you most likely gave me the chance because of this community that we share.
My best friend when I grew up outside of Philadelphia (before moving to Colorado) was a racist. His father was a racist. Not a quiet one either but a big man with a crew cut who never used the word black and always used the n-word. I was very scared of him. My parents had a lot of black friends. Every day after school my brother sister and I would spend the afternoon with Mrs. Cook a black lady across the street until our parents came home. Our babysitter Josie the coolest person I ever knew and she had a huge afro and she is a friend to this day - 50 years later. My parents weren't racists and despite my best friend being one I knew lots of black people and I knew his hate was learned. Racism is learned behavior.
It can be unlearned.
This right now is a moment of change. It's not a time to sit back and see how things shake out. You know what has been happening to black people... forever, is wrong. You know that the person in the white house is wrong, is a hypocrite and is working, actively working to divide any sense of community that is left in this country. He had a chance to unify and he chose to divide.
All of us have seen this and done nothing. And that's what's happened. Nothing.
Right now is the time to stop doing nothing. If you're a republican and are disgusted by Trump then perhaps it's time to switch parties for a cycle - not sit out but actually vote for Biden. If you're a democrat in a blue state help get people registered to vote. If you think Trump is doing a great job... well, I just don't know quite what to say to that. You might want to think about why one party wants more people to vote and one party wants less people to vote. Maybe think about if you want to be part of the "republican" community or the larger community that is this country.
Change happens when enough people see an injustice and finally get up off their asses. I'm hoping that all of you try to make some kind of change happen. It could be going to a march to help increase the awareness, it could be donating to the ACLU or it could be just listening to and accepting the stories your hearing from black people.
Most of all I want you to do SOMETHING.
Gregor
Brian R
Well-known member
"do Something"
Plus One
Plus One
Gregor,
Thanks for sharing this. It is something that I also believe, but just don't say loud enough or often enough. It takes a certain amount of bravery to make these statements, and I appreciate and look up to you for this.
I do share commonalities here. Westcliffe, in deep rural Colorado, is a great place. We kept a summer place there, just east of town and I served on the Sheriff's reserve. The officers and the balance of the reserve were great folks. We never talked politics. Their hearts were in the right place.
I am not sure how we, as a country have gotten so far away from our founders. True, a lot weren't great people but, they believed and acted.
Think about it.
M
Thanks for sharing this. It is something that I also believe, but just don't say loud enough or often enough. It takes a certain amount of bravery to make these statements, and I appreciate and look up to you for this.
I do share commonalities here. Westcliffe, in deep rural Colorado, is a great place. We kept a summer place there, just east of town and I served on the Sheriff's reserve. The officers and the balance of the reserve were great folks. We never talked politics. Their hearts were in the right place.
I am not sure how we, as a country have gotten so far away from our founders. True, a lot weren't great people but, they believed and acted.
Think about it.
M
tap1970
New member
Gregor,
As usual, a brilliant post!
Tom
As usual, a brilliant post!
Tom
gearhead1960
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Well said Gregor....
ronjon1190
Well-known member
My biggest takeaway from that well spoken post, WE ARE A COMMUNITY. We need to start acting like it!
When was this? My best friend growing up, Jerry Jobe, his father was the sheriff for almost forever. There was not a nicer, fairer or better role model than Fred. When I lived in Westcliffe it was after my family’s divorce and I felt like I no longer had a family but instead two parents. Delores and Fred became my “family” and I am forever grateful for that. It meant everything to me at that time. That was the personification of community.
Gregor
zmotorsports
ALLIANCE MEMBER
While I can appreciate your post and it is well thought out and communicated, I have a difference of opinions on some and maybe it is because I have a lot of friends who are in or have been in law enforcement and have had a different experience than you.
I too grew up in a small farming community that was a suburb of a mid-sized city but still a LOT of farming and definitely that sense of community that you speak of.
I had a few run-ins with the law when I was in high school and nowhere did I ever experience any sort of discrimination or corruption that seems to have sparked all of this nonsense lately, even when I was with my friends of various races. We all knew where the line was drawn on what was right and wrong in the way WE acted and cared less about the way others acted.
One thing we all pretty much had engrained into us from a very young age was that under NO circumstances was it ok to use the type of violence and destruction that is taking place now to express ourselves. Even though I had (and sometimes still have) a rather large temper, I found that was no way to get my point across and found it was easier to get results talking and working vs. throwing a tantrum.
Like many I'm sure, I have been saddened, disgusted, embarrassed and even enraged by what has taken place over the past week and unfortunately have less empathy than I did two weeks ago based on this **** that has taken place all in the name of social injustice.
Do I think people can get out of their situations with hard work and discipline? Yes. Do I think there are some that will never get out of their situation? Yes. Do I believe there is social injustice? Yes, but I also strongly believe there are those who use that as a means to be pissed off all of the time and create hate moreso than to resolve anything.
I agree with we are a community but I also feel there are those who will do everything within their power to destroy that at every turn and want nothing of the sort to happen.
I too grew up in a small farming community that was a suburb of a mid-sized city but still a LOT of farming and definitely that sense of community that you speak of.
I had a few run-ins with the law when I was in high school and nowhere did I ever experience any sort of discrimination or corruption that seems to have sparked all of this nonsense lately, even when I was with my friends of various races. We all knew where the line was drawn on what was right and wrong in the way WE acted and cared less about the way others acted.
One thing we all pretty much had engrained into us from a very young age was that under NO circumstances was it ok to use the type of violence and destruction that is taking place now to express ourselves. Even though I had (and sometimes still have) a rather large temper, I found that was no way to get my point across and found it was easier to get results talking and working vs. throwing a tantrum.
Like many I'm sure, I have been saddened, disgusted, embarrassed and even enraged by what has taken place over the past week and unfortunately have less empathy than I did two weeks ago based on this **** that has taken place all in the name of social injustice.
Do I think people can get out of their situations with hard work and discipline? Yes. Do I think there are some that will never get out of their situation? Yes. Do I believe there is social injustice? Yes, but I also strongly believe there are those who use that as a means to be pissed off all of the time and create hate moreso than to resolve anything.
I agree with we are a community but I also feel there are those who will do everything within their power to destroy that at every turn and want nothing of the sort to happen.
Finallygotit
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Last edited:
Like Greger mentioned above, I have always liked this site because of the general lack of politics. Now that the genie is out of the bottle, I truly hope we can keep it civil and respectful. This is a solid group - I’ve got faith in you!
Mike, I have big respect for you but, I believe you’re a (Very) white guy in Utah, I don’t think you can have the same perspective as a person of color in a big city
I’m confused by the statement, what are you saying?
Are you insinuating that there are people that only want to cause trouble for the sake of causing trouble?
Mike, I have big respect for you but, I believe you’re a (Very) white guy in Utah, I don’t think you can have the same perspective as a person of color in a big city
I’m confused by the statement, what are you saying?
Are you insinuating that there are people that only want to cause trouble for the sake of causing trouble?
So first of all Mike I appreciate you taking the time to disagree - that shows a mutual respect and it is appreciated greatly.
I agree with you that protesters should not be looting or destroying property but at the same time I think it's tricky to say to a group of people who've been peacefully trying to effect change to no effect that you aren't protesting correctly. Putting a condition on how someone can disagree before you'll listen is tricky. Colin Kaepernick kneeled in protest and was told that wasn't the right way to disagree and lost his career. Disagreeing on how we are allowed to disagree is a way of not listening.
If I'm not mistaken our country was founded by a group of angry people throwing tea into a harbor as a way of showing their disgust.
But I agree that it makes it harder for some people to listen. We both live in lily white states so our interactions with people of color and our direct experiences are limited. At the same time I think it's important to not lose sight of what originally transpired to create this situation. We need to stay focused on that and just like we wouldn't say all cops are bad because some of them killed an innocent person we can't dismiss all the protests because some people broke some windows. One of that group has a right to be angry. One is getting paid to uphold the law and set an example. We can't afford to have any bad cops.
So, again, I really appreciate your response. I want to make sure all of us are treated fairly and that we consider the longstanding reasons behind the current situation. I know my black friends are really upset right now - everyone should be. If everyone can stay focused on that we can accept that we need to change some things. No one loses is everyone is treated fairly.
Gregor
zmotorsports
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I will agree that I have a different perspective and I admitted that I have had a different experience and perspective which is where most all of our beliefs come from. That being said, we also have a quite diverse population here in Northern Utah and even my friends of other races have similar feelings to my own, but again that is based on their experiences. I am not comparing myself to the same experiences as a black American in a large city but my point of being destructive still stands.
As for the second part, yes, I believe there are a percentage of people out there that want to cause problems and spread hate for no other reason as to further their cause or push their narrative and will never allow peace to enter into the equation.
zmotorsports
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Thanks Gregor and yes, mutual respect is paramount in these discussions.
Maybe we won't see eye to eye but we can be civil about it.
douglawrence42
Active member
Really like this. It’s a big enough moment that saying nothing is saying something, so you might as well say what you have to say. And I really enjoyed what you had to say.