Federal Pacific bow...what to do?

[Ron_J]

Federal Pacific box...what to do?

So I am running power to my garage and need to add a 90 amp breaker to my house panel. Problem is, a Federal Pacific 90 amp breaker looks like it's going to run me about $170 +/-.

I can almost replace my whole service for that.

any advantage in replacing the whole thing?

 

[sparky 1971]

There is every advantage to getting rid of a Federal Pacific panel. There is absolutely no good reason to keep it. Google Federal Pacific if you don't believe me.

 

[Bert_]

$170 isn't even close to the cost of replacing it. They have a bad rap for a reason though so replacing it is a good idea

 

[u2slow]

How about finding a cheaper used breaker? Even if its a 60-80A... and roll with that until you decide to get the panel changed?

FWIW, I was installing brand new FPE panels in buildings as recent as 2004 (not my choice). The odd thing with how Code works is that any legit install of its day, is still legit. Last time I was quizzed about a panel for house insurance, all that mattered was at least 100A and breakers (not fuses).

 

[coljar]

I would change it out. My son's last house had an FP panel and it almost caused the house to burn down when a breaker didn't do it's job.

 

[Dagny]

30 40 50 60 all equal to 100 thats the problem with them.

 

[slow]

I would replace it and not think twice. I was amazed how much an electrician paid for some large 2 pole breakers for some ancient FP panels we had at work. I could have replaced the 2 panels for less cost in materials and breakers than we spent for 6 breakers.

 

[jeepxj]

swap time.

 

[DustynBeardface]

Our house had an FPE panel in it when we bought it. Our home inspector HIGHLY encouraged us to replace it and said something to the effect of FPE panels still cause 3000+ home fires a year even though they haven't been installed in decades.

I swapped it to a 200 amp GE panel in preparation for a 100 amp sub panel install in my detached garage and found that although the same appliances were still plugged into the same receptacles we were now tripping breakers that never tripped before. Upon further inspection when remodeling the kitchen we found that our 50's era house was using way to few circuits, but even scarier was that the receptacles that were now tripping were also charred from years of overloading. All breakers were the same amperage on both panels.

 

[u2slow]

I thought I should add... the white-cased breakers (not black) are the newer ones. These are/were made by Schneider (who took over FPE in its later years) and may be more reliable. These are white panels that borrow the QOM series main breaker. And as I said earlier - was installing these new stab-lok panels as recent as 2004 (25 storey residential highrise).

The disparity of the FPE panel treatment still amazes me.

Bought my 1973-built house in 2011. Home inspection caused the 100A service to be flagged for overhead attachment point being too low. Also various mickey-mouse outlets in places without GFCI. *Those* items had to be rectified for sale completion, and insurance purposes... but not the older (grey) FPE main panel mounted recessed in a wall cavity, behind a cabinet door, nearly 7 feet high in the bedroom.

I would in the very least check the breaker stabs and bus bars for evidence of arc/heat damage, and do some routine checks with a multimeter and temperature gun.

I don't understand insurance... a woodstove, roof, or water heater gets more scrutiny than a main panel.

 

[nadogail]

Federal Pacific panels and circuit breakers, IMHO, are bad news and have a bad reputation. They are so bad that the only thing worse is a Zinsco.

 

[sberry]

They are obsolete now and always will be. Be different if you had a 5 gallon bucket of breakers but tossing 170 at one is down the drain when it should be replaced anyway.

 

[Norcal]

Federal Pacific panels and circuit breakers, IMHO, are bad news and have a bad reputation. They are so bad that the only thing worse is a Zinsco.

Zinsco may even be better then FPE. But they both should be replaced if anyone has one.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Zinsco may even be better then FPE. But they both should be replaced if anyone has one.

I think they may be equally bad (for different reasons), but agree either should be replaced before adding anything to it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

How about finding a cheaper used breaker? Even if its a 60-80A... and roll with that until you decide to get the panel changed?

FWIW, I was installing brand new FPE panels in buildings as recent as 2004 (not my choice). The odd thing with how Code works is that any legit install of its day, is still legit. Last time I was quizzed about a panel for house insurance, all that mattered was at least 100A and breakers (not fuses).

The problem with FPE panels is that they used fraudulent U/L stickers and were never tested by an NRTL....

I thought I should add... the white-cased breakers (not black) are the newer ones. These are/were made by Schneider (who took over FPE in its later years) and may be more reliable. These are white panels that borrow the QOM series main breaker. And as I said earlier - was installing these new stab-lok panels as recent as 2004 (25 storey residential highrise).

The disparity of the FPE panel treatment still amazes me.

Bought my 1973-built house in 2011. Home inspection caused the 100A service to be flagged for overhead attachment point being too low. Also various mickey-mouse outlets in places without GFCI. *Those* items had to be rectified for sale completion, and insurance purposes... but not the older (grey) FPE main panel mounted recessed in a wall cavity, behind a cabinet door, nearly 7 feet high in the bedroom.

I would in the very least check the breaker stabs and bus bars for evidence of arc/heat damage, and do some routine checks with a multimeter and temperature gun.

I don't understand insurance... a woodstove, roof, or water heater gets more scrutiny than a main panel.

youre in canada and Ive read in several places that the canadian version of the stab-lok panels did not have the same issues as the US version...

 

[Norcal]

The Canadian version is not FPE, it's Federal Pioneer, was owned by Schneider and have not heard of problems with FP.

 

[Richard Cranium]

My rental duplex had federal Pacific breaker boxes in them. My inspector looked then over very well and then checked them with his heat gun. He advised me to replace them asap. So the next time I had both units empty, I had them changed out. Now the breakers trip often. Rich

 

[alfredeneuman]

The problem with FPE panels is that they used fraudulent U/L stickers and were never tested by an NRTL....

That's not true, but the rumors exist to this day.

When Reliance Electric (the immediate successor to FPE) did an internal audit, they found that when changes were made, (even cosmetic or switching suppliers would trigger reevaluation testing) costing lotsa$, FPE didn't report them. They basically snitched on themselves.
They lost their listing for about 8 or 9 months. The new UL labels were magenta in color as opposed to the yellow of the previous labels.
I was around for the whole fiasco.

 

[u2slow]

The Canadian version is not FPE, it's Federal Pioneer, was owned by Schneider and have not heard of problems with FP.

FPE = Federal Pioneer Electric = Federal Pacific Electric = Stab-lok

Its identical stuff. Same weak stabs. Same problems. CSA must have yielded better testing results. I have some breakers (older black, and newer white) that are molded as "Pacific" yet the rating decal says "Pioneer".

Schneider got their hands on the brand after it basically died in the USA.

Anyways... I'm not a fan, but the panels are still in use everywhere. Its difficult to sell a panel upgrade - on the basis of fire hazard - when house insurance and home inspectors don't share your view.

 

[sberry]

Some guys seem to get all excited about it and some not so much. I remove them when I can and usually leave it over by the side in a heap for an ispection. One guy says,,, we call those welders. Ha

 

[Norcal]

FPE = Federal Pioneer Electric = Federal Pacific Electric = Stab-lok

Its identical stuff. Same weak stabs. Same problems. CSA must have yielded better testing results. I have some breakers (older black, and newer white) that are molded as "Pacific" yet the rating decal says "Pioneer".

Schneider got their hands on the brand after it basically died in the USA.

Anyways... I'm not a fan, but the panels are still in use everywhere. Its difficult to sell a panel upgrade - on the basis of fire hazard - when house insurance and home inspectors don't share your view.

Not much FPE where I live but plenty of Zinsco/Sylvania & it's successor Challenger is around, now most everything is either Challengers successor Eaton BR, (Zinsco II), or SQ D.

 

[jeffmoss26]

Fire Prone Everyday

 

[Mr_fixit]

Re: Federal Pacific box...what to do?

So I am running power to my garage and need to add a 90 amp breaker to my house panel. Problem is, a Federal Pacific 90 amp breaker looks like it's going to run me about $170 +/-.

I can almost replace my whole service for that.

any advantage in replacing the whole thing?

You can sell the old FPE stuff and get back some money.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Re: Federal Pacific box...what to do?

You can sell the old FPE stuff and get back some money.

Where?
Used breaker houses won't buy them. Some won't even accept them for free.

 

[slow]

I have seen some on eBay but i would not feel right selling them, I would go as far as smashing them with a hammer when I took them out so nobody could use them.

 

[u2slow]

Re: Federal Pacific box...what to do?

How's another used (or new) FPE breaker a risk to somebody with a whole panel's worth of them?

Where?

There's lots of FPE breakers (and panels) for sale on FB Marketplace.

 

[mcj115]

Check Ebay for the breaker....I see some for about $40.

There are two Federal Pac boxes in use in buildings that I use; however both buildings have very limited use. One is a detached garage and the other is a lake cabin used maybe 12 times year.

If this is your primary residence and you are putting a high load sub panel off of it,I would go with others and say replace the service, heck maybe this is a time to upgrade to a 200 amp main.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Re: Federal Pacific box...what to do?

There's lots of FPE breakers (and panels) for sale on FB Marketplace.

I'll bet they sell fast too, as an item in such high demand
FB Marketplace, Ebay, why not Craigslist?

 

[Ron_J]

Check Ebay for the breaker....I see some for about $40.

There are two Federal Pac boxes in use in buildings that I use; however both buildings have very limited use. One is a detached garage and the other is a lake cabin used maybe 12 times year.

If this is your primary residence and you are putting a high load sub panel off of it,I would go with others and say replace the service, heck maybe this is a time to upgrade to a 200 amp main.

I saw some of the smaller amp breakers fairly cheap, but the 90 amp were anything but cheap.

And, I already have a 200 amp service in the house.

Anyway, I have decided to replace the old box. Just waiting for a buddy to come look at it to make sure I have everything needed for the swap.

 

[Mr_fixit]

Re: Federal Pacific box...what to do?

Where?
Used breaker houses won't buy them. Some won't even accept them for free.

Ebay.

 

[rburke65]

I know damn well I commented on this previously but......change it out!

 

[driftpin]

I had a home w/a FPE branch circuit panel, I had the panel and the weatherhead to the branch panel replaced, the only thing which wasn't replaced was the EMT from the exterior wall penetration where the meter can was to the branch circuit panel. So, new weatherhead, meter can, main disconnect, branch circuit panel, service to a 1 car detached garage, and all-new electric in the garage, 100 amp service.

The FPE was still hanging in there, for the dwelling, cartridge and glass screw-in fuses. Glad to have it gone.

 

[Norcal]

I had a home w/a FPE branch circuit panel, I had the panel and the weatherhead to the branch panel replaced, the only thing which wasn't replaced was the EMT from the exterior wall penetration where the meter can was to the branch circuit panel. So, new weatherhead, meter can, main disconnect, branch circuit panel, service to a 1 car detached garage, and all-new electric in the garage, 100 amp service.

The FPE was still hanging in there, for the dwelling, cartridge and glass screw-in fuses. Glad to have it gone.

The only FPE product line that is a problem was the Stab-Lok panels & breakers, if a fusible panel is not overfused, there is really nothing wrong with it, other then some insurance companies not liking them because of overfusing.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I know damn well I commented on this previously but......change it out!

Read the announcement message from the admin at the top of the forum.

Days of threads and comments were lost due to server errors. Anything posted after 6/27 was ****, gone... theyre working on restoring them but may not be able to.

 

[yeldogt]

For a while there every old house I bought for a rental had them -- what a pain. The only good thing about them was ... they never tripped


I also went through a pushmatic run with my personal projects .. nothing really against them ... but not worth trying any upgrades with old panels.

 

[u2slow]

Funny enough, I still have an '80s era 100A FPE panel in my '70s house. Passed a full electrical inspection in 2011 on purchase of the home.

Because I know these are not a stellar panel (and not the first FPE I've lived with), I do my own checks regularly, including temperatures.

House has stood a long time without a fire. So have my neighbours'.