Does a better welder help with tricky thin metal (auto resto) ?

[R-mm]

I've restored 1.25 cars using a pretty basic Eastwoods MIG 120v. My biggest enemy is burning thru thin metal or worse - old thin metal. I'm always debating upgrading my tools (why else would I be on this forum) and curious to hear from others whose welding work leans in this direction. Did a better welder help? Did going all the way to TIG help? If its not obvious we're talking 14-20ga metal with the majority on the thinner end. Plug and **** welds are the mainstay. I have more than enough power. I want more control. I do have 240v readily available if it helps.

 

[brownbagg]

yes, i had a miller 140, hated that machine, got a hobart 230 ironman and it like welding with butter

 

[lowrollin70gmc]

For thin material, having more adjustability in the welder settings helps: Some welders have detents on the voltage knob, on thin stuff sometimes 1 is too cold and 2 is too hot. Nicer welders have nearly infinite adjustments and can help dial in the voltage and wire speed to make smoother welds.

If you’re doing a lot of autobody, set up a welder with thinner 0.24 wire. Possibly get a nicer 240V welder for general fabrication and repairs and keep your 120V MIG setup for body work. Or swap your welder back and forth as needed, just takes a few minutes.

TIG results in a softer weld than MIG and is easier to hammer and dolly, but it can be more difficult to use and often much slower. If the seam in in a location I know I’ll need to work and move metal around post-weld, then I’ll TIG, otherwise MIG it.

 

[R-mm]

the eastwoods is maybe hard to beat, this is why I asked. its infinite adjust ability (no detents) and can be set up with .24 wire which is my mainstay. Sometimes I use sil-bronze as well. just looking for all the tricks in the book to make the hard work of rust repair easier.

 

[nadogail]

An Oldtimer told me that, With the right rod and the right heat heat, you are half way there.

 

[HMCFab9]

You definitely need a welder with a dial adjustment for voltage.

The ones with 1,2,3,4 voltage adjustment are almost Always a little off.
With the dial adjustment you can really dial it in to get a nice weld.

TIG is great if you are able to make your parts fit very well before welding & you can very closely control heat input, etc.
If you have gaps to fill, mig with .023 & C25 is better

 

[vpd66]

I'd have to agree with what everyone here is telling you. A welder with a reostat for voltage will allow you to dial your settings in better. I bought a HTP ProPulse 200 and it is very sweet on thin gauge sheet metal. It has more adjustments then the average person needs but this really helps on the thin stuff. I also like the spot and stitch feature for sheet metal has most of the time on thin gauge that is all your doing anyway.

 

[WoodsTruck]

I just got done working on a cab that had been repaired before so the metal had been ground down in spots. I took a piece of 3/4" copper coupler and smashed flat and then put a small arc in it. Held with a pair of small vice-grips I could use this as a backer under thin welds to help dissipate the heat minimizing blow outs. Not perfect, but sped up my process. A thicker piece would be nicer, so I have two collars that I will nest, narrow one up and slide it into the other to make a little thicker heat sink. If you get in a tricky spot, you can bend the copper to fit your piece as needed.

 

[Jazz1]

Better welding machine with more range. Quality 220 mig will **** weld that 28 gauge tin.

 

[R-mm]

I have not thought about the pulsed MIG before. What can one expect to pay for a hobby level machine and is that a quantum step ahead in terms of control especially at the low power end of things?

 

[welder4956]

For thin material, having more adjustability in the welder settings helps: Some welders have detents on the voltage knob, on thin stuff sometimes 1 is too cold and 2 is too hot. Nicer welders have nearly infinite adjustments and can help dial in the voltage and wire speed to make smoother welds.

If you’re doing a lot of autobody, set up a welder with thinner 0.24 wire. Possibly get a nicer 240V welder for general fabrication and repairs and keep your 120V MIG setup for body work. Or swap your welder back and forth as needed, just takes a few minutes.

TIG results in a softer weld than MIG and is easier to hammer and dolly, but it can be more difficult to use and often much slower. If the seam in in a location I know I’ll need to work and move metal around post-weld, then I’ll TIG, otherwise MIG it.

Best advice here. Once you have the adjustability and wire size right, use 100% CO2 gas to keep the penetration down and start working on your technique. Tight fits with no gap, spot tack welds about 1" apart, then spot tacks overlapping the previous tacks while skipping around. There are some good Youtube videos showing the technique. Fitzees Fabrications has some good videos.

 

[PhantomEB]

Yup a better name brand welder will always give you potential, it’s just a Learning curve after all.

My next one is to be one of Miller’s autoset units.

 

[sberry]

I like a tap machine actually. So much easier to repeat the same settings and only wire speed to fine tune. I doubt a guy will notice night and day between the Eastwood and others unless you go to pulse and I am not familiar with the options. C25 gives a little better finish and milder penetration.

 

[R-mm]

By tap do you mean pulse?

What do you guys think of the Everlast pulsed MIG/TIG? https://www.everlastgenerators.com/product/mig/powermts-251si-tig-package

 

[MoonRise]

"Tap" machine means a machine with individual discrete voltage settings. A, B, C, etc or High/Low or 1, 2, 3, etc.

As opposed to a machine with full voltage adjustability. The dial may say 1-10, but you can set it to 3.5 or 4.8 or 9.2 or whatever you want.

Use C25 gas. It usually has less spatter than 100% CO2, which also typically runs 'hotter' than C25.

A higher voltage is needed to get the arc to run with 100% CO2 compared to C25. In short-circuit transfer mode GMAW (as opposed to globular transfer mode or spray transfer mode, which are usually NOT what you want to use on thin sheet metal, not counting pulsed spray), the voltage is about 1-2 volts less with C25 compared to CO2 for the same wire feed speed (amperage). More volts and same amps/WFS = more energy in the weld. More energy means deeper penetration (all else being held equal).

You can use a copper backer to help minimize or reduce blowing through a thin spot. Homemade from some copper plumbing pieces, or Harbor Freight used to have a 'welding spoon', which was a relatively thick piece of copper with a handle. Clamp or hold it FIRMLY to the back side of the weld joint.

Thin sheet metal is not the easiest thing to weld. Thin sheet metal that has random thinner spots is even harder to do.

Practice, technique (a series of small weld dots that you eventually fill in completely, as opposed to running a continuous weld bead on the seam), more practice, maybe using a copper backer or copper welding spoon, more practice.

A machine that can hold a consistent arc setting is a must. A machine with 'enough' adjustability to let you get the 'right' settings is needed. Enough could be either well thought out individual voltage tap settings or fully adjustable voltage settings.

A machine with only High/Low and Fast/Slow settings would not make it easy to weld thin sheet metal.

 

[sweetk30]

You definitely need a welder with a dial adjustment for voltage.

The ones with 1,2,3,4 voltage adjustment are almost Always a little off.
With the dial adjustment you can really dial it in to get a nice weld.

TIG is great if you are able to make your parts fit very well before welding & you can very closely control heat input, etc.
If you have gaps to fill, mig with .023 & C25 is better

x2 on this here .

 

[bigguns69]

I have a Miller 251 set up for 1/16" and above using .035 wire. I have a miller 211 using the 120v setting with .023 wire and I use the auto set feature for 1/16" and below and it works the best for tin work for me.

I tried my Miller 251 with .023 wire and I couldn't get it tuned down enough. I was always blowing holes in 18 and 20 ga. material. I tried the 211 out of spite and it worked much better for me.

I also have a Dynasty tig welder. I hardly ever use it, except for occasional aluminum or S.S. job, which is rare for me.

My Tig welder and stick welder basically sit in the corner, gathering dust.

 

[flippin]

I have a Miller 251 set up for 1/16" and above using .035 wire. I have a miller 211 using the 120v setting with .023 wire and I use the auto set feature for 1/16" and below and it works the best for tin work for me.

I tried my Miller 251 with .023 wire and I couldn't get it tuned down enough. I was always blowing holes in 18 and 20 ga. material. I tried the 211 out of spite and it worked much better for me.

I also have a Dynasty tig welder. I hardly ever use it, except for occasional aluminum or S.S. job, which is rare for me.

My Tig welder and stick welder basically sit in the corner, gathering dust.

Exactly the same experience for me!! I have a Miller 252 which I use with 035, and my 211 has a spool of 023. If you can find a good deal on a 211, you won't be disappointed. It will also weld 3/8" without issues on 220v.

Good Luck

 

[sberry]

"Tap" machine means a machine with individual discrete voltage settings. A, B, C, etc or High/Low or 1, 2, 3, etc.

As opposed to a machine with full voltage adjustability. The dial may say 1-10, but you can set it to 3.5 or 4.8 or 9.2 or whatever you want.

Use C25 gas. It usually has less spatter than 100% CO2, which also typically runs 'hotter' than C25.

A higher voltage is needed to get the arc to run with 100% CO2 compared to C25. In short-circuit transfer mode GMAW (as opposed to globular transfer mode or spray transfer mode, which are usually NOT what you want to use on thin sheet metal, not counting pulsed spray), the voltage is about 1-2 volts less with C25 compared to CO2 for the same wire feed speed (amperage). More volts and same amps/WFS = more energy in the weld. More energy means deeper penetration (all else being held equal).

You can use a copper backer to help minimize or reduce blowing through a thin spot. Homemade from some copper plumbing pieces, or Harbor Freight used to have a 'welding spoon', which was a relatively thick piece of copper with a handle. Clamp or hold it FIRMLY to the back side of the weld joint.

Thin sheet metal is not the easiest thing to weld. Thin sheet metal that has random thinner spots is even harder to do.

Practice, technique (a series of small weld dots that you eventually fill in completely, as opposed to running a continuous weld bead on the seam), more practice, maybe using a copper backer or copper welding spoon, more practice.

A machine that can hold a consistent arc setting is a must. A machine with 'enough' adjustability to let you get the 'right' settings is needed. Enough could be either well thought out individual voltage tap settings or fully adjustable voltage settings.

A machine with only High/Low and Fast/Slow settings would not make it easy to weld thin sheet metal.

That is a good write up, worth repeating.

 

[sberry]

My SPT is old enough that it was a 130 when it came out. It is the same as the 180 found in the box stores and they made it a lonnnnnnnngggg time. I havnt ran it much with 023, a bit to test but the guys that set it up on 030 were real welders. Its about perfect and use 3 settings, thin, medium and thick and really only turn it down for specialized work, usually blast toasty and fast.
I have used the same one in continuous but its been so long I cant recall the details. When a guy has a C make sure and mark the dials once its learned.

 

[Jwallace1]

i have used several different 120 and 240 welders with good success for auto body work, the fine adjustment definitely helps and using gas with .024 wire is the key, far to often people try to use flux .030 wire and destroy what they are trying to work on. you can also get an easy grind wire so if your welding in something like a quarter panel you can introduce a lot of heat while grinding which can cause the panel to warp just as bad and t o much heat while welding.

 

[JeepJohn62]

Agree with info above.

Patience and "stitch welds" are the trick. Short spot welds at an angle help to avoid burning a hole.

Eastwood sells a combo punch and lap seam forming tool. I have used this to join panels with success. It provides a stronger seam than a **** weld and gives some wiggle room to fill and grind flush.

Thin sheet metal is a challenge.

John

Sent from my SM-A102U using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[R-mm]

Thanks guys. I've restored an entire car with my Eastwoods 135 and was curious about the upgrade because I like learning new things and I want the process to go more smoothly on the next resto. I'm especially interested in what I read about pulsed mig's strengths with thin material and out of position work. Plug welds upside down... ****. Curious to hear from any who have tried pulsed MIG or even TIG for auto body work, which in my case consists overwhelmingly of 20-12ga stock.

This Everlast is my front runner: https://www.everlastgenerators.com/product/mig/powermts-251si-tig-package

 

[4 FN 27]

As a few others have mentioned .023 Wire and yes a better machine with infinite adjustability down low.

Another thing I use is small hunks of copper as a heatsink backing the area being welded. The weld does not stick to the copper.

 

[R-mm]

As a few others have mentioned .023 Wire and yes a better machine with infinite adjustability down low.

Another thing I use is small hunks of copper as a heatsink backing the area being welded. The weld does not stick to the copper.

Yes thanks I have used all these tricks extensively on my first resto. Slow stitch welds. Copper backer. Infinite adjustability on the MIG. Even Sil-Bronze wire.

 

[PugetDude]

Miller 211 Mig on 220V improved my welding 3X overnight; huge step up from my old Lincoln 135 Flux on 110V.

 

[Jazz1]

By tap do you mean pulse?

What do you guys think of the Everlast pulsed MIG/TIG? https://www.everlastgenerators.com/product/mig/powermts-251si-tig-package

I saw Everest mig/tig up close. Boilermaker/welder had one in his shop. Showed me some fine welds on bottom of beer can. He really liked it.. Id seen them advertised on kijiji from vendor in Burlington On

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

I have a Miller 250x , the second worst welder Miller made, the 250 was worse they tell me. It starts so hot it blows holes, so I would say certainly. By 252 they had sorted it out. There is a fix, but it's electronic.

 

[sberry]

Hobart 140 is good down low with little wire. dr clyde has a pulse job, not sure how much he has used it on light sheet. Shade showed me some of it quite a while ago, it looked really good and could pass for tig.

 

[sberry]

Miller 211 Mig on 220V improved my welding 3X overnight; huge step up from my old Lincoln 135 Flux on 110V.

Your old machine on gas would have worked well.

 

[472scout]

Find a welding supply shop that will let you try out a few welders.

 

[PugetDude]

Your old machine on gas would have worked well.

I still have it. Night and day difference with the autoset.

 

[BORING HOP YARD]

I use a old Miller cricket 110 with .023 for my body work welding 99% of the time, It has 4 settings.
My question to you is how well of a fit and prepared is the area being welded. Do you have gaps that are larger that the thickness of the Mig wire? Are you trying to weld a panel that was thinned by rust, trying to reduce the are that needed replaced?

The best advice I can give you is to read this entire thread below and understand what can be done to help your welding. Robert over at MP&C shows how to do it. I started using his process years ago and it has fixed almost all of my blow throughs, I understand what going on with the metal rather that just trying to fix after the welding.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53534

 

[sberry]

The price of a basic mig is not much more than it was 30 years ago. They are more compete than they ever were and the only way they could raise prices was to start adding features. More marketed to non welders also, new welders so to speak with less formal training.
I am not sure of the exact math but some of the bells and whistles are cheap to make and it's obvious they sell well. The set isn't any different other than the machine does it.