Vintage Veloce
Well-known member
Yeah, that's not going to be easy.
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Horrific new slab pour, PROPER corrective action advise needed!
- Thread starter zimmpz
- Start date
rjacobs
Well-known member
Yeah, that's not going to be easy.
As was said, with a road grinder type machine thats a few passes...
With how this saga has played out I suspect his contractor will attempt to have some schmuck that makes 7.50 an hour run a diamond grinder for 6 weeks...and only gone down 1/2"...
Lassen Forge
Well-known member
I hope not for Z's sake... Like the way you called it your "play-doh slab"...
Grinding 2" with a road grinder will be about a half day work, IF they can get the grinder to do it smoothly and evenly, which will rely on the crew running the grinder... it's a 2-3 man job - one running the equipment, one (or two) on the ground monitoring and adjusting, especially as it's edges are not on pavement... and don't forget a water source. The key will be if the slab holds up to the grinding (it may well crumble under the pummeling from the grinder)... you'll know as soon as it happens... and if it doesn't, it's that much easier to have the rest removed and repoured...
Let us know how it works out... And oh yeah, wear earplugs!!
Grinding 2" with a road grinder will be about a half day work, IF they can get the grinder to do it smoothly and evenly, which will rely on the crew running the grinder... it's a 2-3 man job - one running the equipment, one (or two) on the ground monitoring and adjusting, especially as it's edges are not on pavement... and don't forget a water source. The key will be if the slab holds up to the grinding (it may well crumble under the pummeling from the grinder)... you'll know as soon as it happens... and if it doesn't, it's that much easier to have the rest removed and repoured...
Let us know how it works out... And oh yeah, wear earplugs!!
a road mill would make short work of that, but considering the transport, set up etc, it still is not a quick or inexpensive task .
then you have the "cold joint syndrome" where the top wont bond to the base. maybe with a milled top surface it would be OK.
then you have the "cold joint syndrome" where the top wont bond to the base. maybe with a milled top surface it would be OK.
nmantas
Well-known member
.... They never lifted the pex off the bottom so a weird victory there in that they shouldn't grind through my tubes. ...
Holy **** they were terrible. Will the floor heating even be worth it at this point? Seems like half, if not most, of the heat wold be lost to the ground.
malibu101
Well-known member
OP-
Are you (does the engineer recommend) using 5500PSI for the overlay?
Assuming the existing slab will allow it.
Just following and wondering. I don't not know nothing about concrete.
Are you (does the engineer recommend) using 5500PSI for the overlay?
Assuming the existing slab will allow it.
Just following and wondering. I don't not know nothing about concrete.
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I suspect grinding 2" off the slab will require more $ in labor and equipment than ripping it out while it is still green.
jeepinerdeep
Well-known member
I suspect grinding 2" off the slab will require more $ in labor and equipment than ripping it out while it is still green.
Could of had it busted out, hauled away and be reformed by now. Money ahead and a satisfied customer. I'm detecting a pride or blame the customer element on deck.
Still rooting for you OP.
didit
Well-known member
That should have been broken and removed the next day without any consideration of a "fix". I would have turned the matter over to my lawyers immediately.
Bogie1632
Well-known member
Been following this interesting conundrum but my interest peaked with with reading the pex wasn't raised before the pour.
What did the engineer and contractor each say about that? How will that effect heat now going through 2 slabs at what...8 inches now? Will the ground absorb most of the heat? Hope I didn't miss any of those answers.
Hope it all works out.
V/R
Bogie
What did the engineer and contractor each say about that? How will that effect heat now going through 2 slabs at what...8 inches now? Will the ground absorb most of the heat? Hope I didn't miss any of those answers.
Hope it all works out.
V/R
Bogie
HMCFab9
Well-known member
Without any question....i'd be forcing them to tear it out & re-do it.
If that was my place, i'd be so pissed off every time I walked in & had to look at it that i'd want to burn the whole mess down.
If that was my place, i'd be so pissed off every time I walked in & had to look at it that i'd want to burn the whole mess down.
ConCretin
Well-known member
The engineer said grind 2 inches off the top and then if it passes a compressive strength test we can lay a 5 inch reinforced slab on it and all sleep better at night. I'm praying the concrete underneath is good and the engineer seemed to be confident that it would be. They never lifted the pex off the bottom so a weird victory there in that they shouldn't grind through my tubes. I'm looking forward for the nightmare to end and to put all of this nonsense in the past pending the compressive testing goes well. Lots of lessons learned and egg on everyone's face but I still hold on to some optimism as does the engineer. I will continue to update after the grind, thanks again everyone and enjoy the weekend!
I would love to know the reason for the 2" grind and even more so how you intend to accomplish it. Please share the details as it goes along. Is your contractor on board with doing the corrective work? It's great if he is.
Also curious about the compressive strength testing. Did they actually make cylinders during placement or are your going to take cores?
Overall, your plan seems workable and should provide a perfectly adequate floor. Congrats on the process!
Been reading and trying to keep up over the last few days and I see you're getting some good advice.
I have one concern for you. I poured over the old floor in my garage, 3.5" to 6.5" in thickness to make it level. I used no bonding agent or pinning as I have a concrete foundation around all of it to keep it from moving except one spot.
That spot is the over head doors. I feared I would get water intrusion between the slabs and if it froze, it would heave the slabs apart. To combat this, I have an over hang to keep most moisture. . . rain/snow off of it. I also poured the garage apron rather thick in that area. It covers both the old floor and new floor in an attempt to prevent any further intrusion of water.
So my question, granted I know you have pex to heat the floor, are there any precautions being taken to prevent water intrusion in between slabs and wreaking havoc ?
What I dealt with.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1115204&postcount=41
I have one concern for you. I poured over the old floor in my garage, 3.5" to 6.5" in thickness to make it level. I used no bonding agent or pinning as I have a concrete foundation around all of it to keep it from moving except one spot.
That spot is the over head doors. I feared I would get water intrusion between the slabs and if it froze, it would heave the slabs apart. To combat this, I have an over hang to keep most moisture. . . rain/snow off of it. I also poured the garage apron rather thick in that area. It covers both the old floor and new floor in an attempt to prevent any further intrusion of water.
So my question, granted I know you have pex to heat the floor, are there any precautions being taken to prevent water intrusion in between slabs and wreaking havoc ?
What I dealt with.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1115204&postcount=41
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Vintage Veloce
Well-known member
I suspect they are looking for voids...I would love to know the reason for the 2" grind and even more so how you intend to accomplish it.
koditten
Well-known member
Is that 1/2" pex is in the floor? What spacing of the pex? You are going to need at least 1" pex to get even close to a decent heat transfer to the slab. How long are your loops? If you have 5 loops @300' each, that water is going to be very cold when it returns to the header.
That heat will need to make it's way thru 6"-7" of concrete? You are going to have to use a bigger boiler and it's going to take a week for the system to stabilize.
Have you asked a heating company to to do a heat load calculation for this thick of concrete?
I think the pour over the existing slab may make the floor savable, but I don't think you will ever be happy with the floor heat system.
That heat will need to make it's way thru 6"-7" of concrete? You are going to have to use a bigger boiler and it's going to take a week for the system to stabilize.
Have you asked a heating company to to do a heat load calculation for this thick of concrete?
I think the pour over the existing slab may make the floor savable, but I don't think you will ever be happy with the floor heat system.
koditten
Well-known member
I see that you have insulation around the outside, is there foam board under the slab?
If no, you are wasting a lot of energy with the floor heat, heating the ground.
If no, you are wasting a lot of energy with the floor heat, heating the ground.
nh_yota
Well-known member
My buddy is a foreman for a large regional asphalt and concrete supplier that's currently repaving the runway at our local airport. They have this truck the creeps along the concrete and slams a big weight down to break up the concrete, similar to the function of a pile driver.
I bet his truck could break up that slab in 10 minutes.
I bet his truck could break up that slab in 10 minutes.
Robbie B
Well-known member
Not sure it the guys that poured that were too drunk or not drunk enough. Either way they’d be replacing it on their dime. That’s terrible work.
jmarkwolf
Well-known member
Deleted by author
At this point in my life, if I'm paying for work to be done it must be as close to 100% correct as possible. Starting over in this case seems like the best option. Sounds like the floor heat could be a huge issue if concrete is added over slab.
Farmall450
Well-known member
Looks like the company owes you a new slab, & pex etc.
Absolutely
Farmall450
Well-known member
So, we're all doing a lot of speculating, and a lot of spending somebody's money, without a clue as to who is paying, and what their resources are. We also don't know how good the consolidation and set of the concrete is. The one thing we can at least make reasonable guesses at are the costs to repair this:
So, a 36x26 with rebar and pex costs I'd guess are:
1) Demo out and haul away the current slab. $2500 to $3500
2) Re-work base, form, rebar $2000 Not sure what kind of insulation is under slab, that oculd drive costs up a lot if full foam insulated.
3) Re-do PEX $1200 + labor
4) Floor drains and embeds $800
5) 24 CY concrete, placed $7000 to $9000
Overall, $14,000 to $17,000 to tear out and redo. More if full foam under the slab.
To rework the current mess:
1) Cut out or modify embeds and replace $1200
2) Form perimeter and place remesh $1200
3) Drill and place anchors and supports for remesh $500
4) Bonding Agents $500
5) 12 CY of fiber reinforced concrete, with WR admixtures and plasticizers. 5500 (a bit more per yard than original for working around remesh in thin section).
6) Curing Procedure and crack control $1000
Somewhere in the $10,000 range.
With care, the bonded overlay will give very similar performance to the original design. Theoretically, it may be stronger. It will have little effect on the in-floor heat, other than more thermal mass. It will take less time to complete than a complete tear out. It may affect the embeds a bit, hard to tell from the pictures exactly what will have to be done there. It will change the elevation to existing ground by a small amount. Drilling for a lift will have to be done well enough to get into the original slab, not just the overlay.
So, there's a $4,000 to $7,000 savings to salvage what is there, instead of doing new. That's quite a bit of incentive for the contractor to do it, the additional amount of a tear-out and replace might make him walk. If he walks anyway and has no recoverable assets to sue for, the OP is $5000+ ahead on reworking.
It might be quite a bit cheaper to grind and epoxy coat. That might be quite satisfactory, it really depends on what the condition of the mass of concrete is in, not just the surface finish. I'd wild *** guess $4000 to $5000 to grind and coat. Messing with the embeds might be problematic.
What this all depends on is the contractor, which is where we have almost no info. Is he owning the problem? Does he have resources? What has he suggested or agreed to do? If you can't get get him to agree, what can you recover from him, and manage to collect, without paying more for lawyers than you recover? Are you willing to invest $4000 to $7000 more for a complete tearout and replace vs a repair, or $12,000 more than a grind and epoxy if you have to pay for it all yourself?
Only the OP has the information to answer these questions, and he hasn't given us most of the information that decision would be based on. Just the ugly that we would all prefer to have go away and be replaced, if it's not our money we're spending.
Nice breakdown. I just wonder if the contractor is capable of topping it correctly.
Lassen Forge
Well-known member
This has become like watching 2 trains flying towards one another, you don't want to see it but you can't oull your eyes away...
The floor heat pex issue actually settled it for me. The tubes are on the bottom, keeping the ground nice and soft, instead of near the top, keeping your shop warm. AT that point, nothing you can do will fix that additional screw up, save maybe putting new pex loops under or in the new top, and hoping the heat expansion doesn't cause the new concrete to delam off the play-doh.
I'm going back to the "bring in the hammers". The bad concrete is bad enough; having to pay 3x in energy costs to keep that slab even close to warm is crazy, putting PEX in the new slab may cause it to delam off the monolith...
The answer is how many problems are you or "the engineers" willing to pile on top of one another to bury an initial fubar? Because remember - the engineers won't have to live with the results, nor will they be paying to keep that boiler fired up.
The floor heat pex issue actually settled it for me. The tubes are on the bottom, keeping the ground nice and soft, instead of near the top, keeping your shop warm. AT that point, nothing you can do will fix that additional screw up, save maybe putting new pex loops under or in the new top, and hoping the heat expansion doesn't cause the new concrete to delam off the play-doh.
I'm going back to the "bring in the hammers". The bad concrete is bad enough; having to pay 3x in energy costs to keep that slab even close to warm is crazy, putting PEX in the new slab may cause it to delam off the monolith...
The answer is how many problems are you or "the engineers" willing to pile on top of one another to bury an initial fubar? Because remember - the engineers won't have to live with the results, nor will they be paying to keep that boiler fired up.
Leaflessshadetree
Well-known member
I see a lot of installs where they staple the PEX to the insulation and pour concrete over it. Other guys say you want the PEX in the center or near the top of the slab. Then you also find people that recommend using the ground to store heat and only insulate a few feet around the edges or even around the outside of the slab.
I'd compare the cost of milling off the 2 inches (as the engineer suggests) with the cost of breaking it up and completely redoing it.
One advantage of pouring 5" over the existing is if you ever want to bolt something down you know you can drill 5" deep anyplace.
I'd compare the cost of milling off the 2 inches (as the engineer suggests) with the cost of breaking it up and completely redoing it.
One advantage of pouring 5" over the existing is if you ever want to bolt something down you know you can drill 5" deep anyplace.
Hope it works out but grinding to 2 inches off the top. ? Does the concrete contractor have a grinder that will do that? Ill bet he his zero experience in grinding concrete in that manner. If that all happens how do you fix floor drains? Better air test your pex.
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SweetD
Well-known member
The pex location alone would have me demanding a whole new slab. Rip it out!
Bigblockyeti
Banned
Hope it works out but grinding to 2 inches off the top. ? Does the concrete contractor have a grinder that will do that? Ill bet he his zero experience in grinding concrete in that manner. If that all happens how do you fix floor drains? Better air test your pex.
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Grinding does sound expensive (especially for someone learning), messy and time consuming, then you still have to haul it off. I'd charge the pex with 40-60psi then wait for the inevitable hiss when (not if) it gets ripped up.
Vintage Veloce
Well-known member
They grind the city streets here in San Diego before resurfacing them... they are supposed to take off about 2"... but they never do. Thus the resurfacing is always higher than it is supposed to be and in some places the 6" curbs are now down to zero, or even lower than the street!
My point is, it's not necessarily easy to grind the surface. I'll be very curious to hear the OP's next report!
My point is, it's not necessarily easy to grind the surface. I'll be very curious to hear the OP's next report!
Kilroy
Well-known member
The reality is, that's never going to be like a good solid pour would have been... It wouldn't pass inspection in a commercial setting and it won't be as strong or as long lived...
That said, having gone through even a worse slab pour experience... One that did in fact involve lawyers and 2 years worth of lawyer fees... Ultimately ending in bankruptcy court, where our scumbag contractor had our case thrown out because he hid his assets well...
I can tell you that if you can find a way to get it fixed to the point where you're satisfied, it may be in your best interest, in the long term.
A combination of grinding and microtopping might get you where you can live with it.
And some sort of refund... You shouldn't have to pay to fix it and they should be paying for your time/inconvenience.
That said, having gone through even a worse slab pour experience... One that did in fact involve lawyers and 2 years worth of lawyer fees... Ultimately ending in bankruptcy court, where our scumbag contractor had our case thrown out because he hid his assets well...
I can tell you that if you can find a way to get it fixed to the point where you're satisfied, it may be in your best interest, in the long term.
A combination of grinding and microtopping might get you where you can live with it.
And some sort of refund... You shouldn't have to pay to fix it and they should be paying for your time/inconvenience.
koditten
Well-known member
The insulation the floor is not there just for insulation, its to prevent any water from contacting the floor. Any water will wick the heat away from the concrete faster than it can radiate upwards.
If you can guarantee that the fill sand is and will stay dry, then the insulation doesn't gain you a whole lot. But it's so cheap compared to the rest of the system, why wouldn't you use it?
If you can guarantee that the fill sand is and will stay dry, then the insulation doesn't gain you a whole lot. But it's so cheap compared to the rest of the system, why wouldn't you use it?
Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
More good input and constructive criticism! For those asking why 5500 I feel the need to explain myself and I now realize I know more about concrete now than I did before. I am not an expert on concrete which is why I hired someone. I work in the airline industry and after rolling around on beautiful old slabs that have been beat to hell by large aircraft and AGE equipment I asked a guy who worked at the facility what it would take to have that as my floor and he ran me through what he did to repair a concrete pad in the hanger and he laid 5500 and did some surface work but I don't know what it was. In my ignorance wanting the same slab I have beat the piss out of for 14 years I was unaware that working with it was playing with the devil. I figured the guy with all the references knew and he obviously was terribly inexperienced with this material. I guess my want of a little cool factor and feeling of familiarity was a bad idea especially combined with a bad contractor so I'll take the heat for that I guess.
I will not be perusing anything legal unless he doesn't do the honorable thing and make the repair approved by an engineer. That road isn't a guarantee to get me what I want and will cost me another year and continue to make my life hell throughout that time. Plus the risk of an actual financial setback in these times REALLY does not interest me.
2 engineers, the contractor, another concrete contractor and myself will be having a meeting of the minds at 130 tomorrow afternoon to set up the final plan. If the engineers feel comfortable moving forward with a repair and lay out a plan I can be a little happier with I will move forward.
I am not very familiar with tiled garage floors or other coatings so if anyone has any opinions on what to finish it with I'm all ears. It will be used as a personal shop with some decent sized equipment in it. Carbide skis on my sleds might be the biggest threat but I can just use good practice and dollies to roll them around. easy oil clean up will be a big selling point. appreciate your thoughts! I'll update after tomorrows meeting.
Check with Jack Olsen on Garage Journal and look at his tiled floor in his garage. He has done tons of work in his garage on the tiles. Dropped stuff, rolling jacks across the floor, and the list goes on.
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
The Mods should change the title of this thread...
"As the Slab Cures"
Starring the OP, the GC, and a supporting cast supplied by the GJ.
Each episode will feature high-stakes drama, financial intrigue, incompetent and unsupervised tradesmen, The Professor and Mary Ann, and a chance for viewers to vote for their favored outcomes.
"As the Slab Cures"
Starring the OP, the GC, and a supporting cast supplied by the GJ.
Each episode will feature high-stakes drama, financial intrigue, incompetent and unsupervised tradesmen, The Professor and Mary Ann, and a chance for viewers to vote for their favored outcomes.
The reality is, that's never going to be like a good solid pour would have been... It wouldn't pass inspection in a commercial setting and it won't be as strong or as long lived...
That said, having gone through even a worse slab pour experience... One that did in fact involve lawyers and 2 years worth of lawyer fees... Ultimately ending in bankruptcy court, where our scumbag contractor had our case thrown out because he hid his assets well...
I can tell you that if you can find a way to get it fixed to the point where you're satisfied, it may be in your best interest, in the long term.
A combination of grinding and microtopping might get you where you can live with it.
And some sort of refund... You shouldn't have to pay to fix it and they should be paying for your time/inconvenience.
Wow, 2 years. Sorry to hear about that. I bet you wish you had not hired the attorney and thus saved those attorney fees, but hindsight's 20/20.
Maybe they should sell construction insurance to protect homeowner's from scumbag contractors. I was out in California helping my mom with her new house. I hired a local contractor to build a rear deck, replace roof, new flooring, etc.. They did a good job and we were happy.
But then my sister hired them to do work at her house 3 miles away. The contractor failed to tell the neanderthals that this new client's house was owned by the daughter of the owner of the last house. My sister overheard them making rude comments about my mom and me -- just typical neanderthal caveman banter. She fired them.
Then she hired another contractor, and they took my sister's money and did **** work and then stopped working on it entirely. So they're having to sue that contractor. It's amazing how many bad contractors are out there.
Vintage Veloce
Well-known member
In California, by law, the down payment to the contractor cannot exceed 10% of the project price or $1000, whichever is less. And after that you should never let the payments get ahead of the work. All payments after the down payment should be for work already performed or materials delivered to the job site. For instance, you don't even pay for windows and doors until they are delivered, all that risk is on the contractor.I was out in California helping my mom with her new house.
(This is straight from the California Contractors State License Board.)
Anyone letting payments get ahead in California is making a mistake. On my last project, I also held back 15% of every payment until the entire job was completed to my satisfaction. The contractor didn't even blink at the request and did a great job. I started to feel guilty about it near the end (as it was a substantial sum), but I still held it back. He didn't seem to care. Of course, he was reputable, and not a bargain. ;-)
Frankly, I'd be terrified in states that allow the contractor to take a significant
payment up front, it places all the risk on the client.
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Good Lord, rip that **** out now!
A few years ago I was involved (not in charge of project, but responsible for overall facility) in a commercial entry poor, probably about the size of your garage.
1st poor was pitched towards building, could see it by eye next day. Told contractor to rip it out and try again. By end of week 2nd pour was complete, it rained overnight. You could see the low spots and how it would puddle/ice over. Contractor offered to skim coat with some polymer product, but wouldn't guarantee it long enough to make it through a full winter.
Told him to rip it out then GTFO. Never paid him a dime, next contractor nailed a dead smooth slab with perfect drainage
Don't accept ****, and certainly don't pay for it.
A few years ago I was involved (not in charge of project, but responsible for overall facility) in a commercial entry poor, probably about the size of your garage.
1st poor was pitched towards building, could see it by eye next day. Told contractor to rip it out and try again. By end of week 2nd pour was complete, it rained overnight. You could see the low spots and how it would puddle/ice over. Contractor offered to skim coat with some polymer product, but wouldn't guarantee it long enough to make it through a full winter.
Told him to rip it out then GTFO. Never paid him a dime, next contractor nailed a dead smooth slab with perfect drainage
Don't accept ****, and certainly don't pay for it.
JJ13
Well-known member
Here's an odd corrolary to my post and LLWillysfan's post on overkill:
The most demanding clients are the ones that usually end up with the biggest disasters, and the most trouble recovering from them. This comes from unrealistic expectations.
When the client has unrealistic expectations, there are only three avenues to satisfy them:
1) Pay an outrageous amount of money to get perfection.
2) Have a contractor that just plain lies to you promise to meet your expectations, and then do what he would anyway.
3) Have a contractor that doesn't know better try to meet those expectations, and fail.
The desire of the same demanding clients to have a "reasonable" price, or to take the lowest bidder compounds the problem, because it selects for alternative 2 or 3 above.
Man did this post ring true with me. For 15-20 years I was a professional violinist and the one in our quartet that usually scheduled the jobs and worked directly with the bride/groom or whomever was hiring us for an hour or two. The absolute worst were the ones that tried to control everything aiming for the perfect day. Those that said "I don't know, you're the experts...asking what we would recommend and communicating well instead of demanding exactly what/where/when were the happiest.
OP, sorry I have nothing of value to add but agree with one post asking how long you plan on living there. If you're not planning on drilling to install a lift and can install new PEX in the overlay slab that might be the route I'd go. If it were my retirement home I'd push for a totally new slab and maybe think about accepting an overlay.
Kilroy
Well-known member
Wow, 2 years. Sorry to hear about that. I bet you wish you had not hired the attorney and thus saved those attorney fees, but hindsight's 20/20.
Maybe they should sell construction insurance to protect homeowner's from scumbag contractors. I was out in California helping my mom with her new house. I hired a local contractor to build a rear deck, replace roof, new flooring, etc.. They did a good job and we were happy.
But then my sister hired them to do work at her house 3 miles away. The contractor failed to tell the neanderthals that this new client's house was owned by the daughter of the owner of the last house. My sister overheard them making rude comments about my mom and me -- just typical neanderthal caveman banter. She fired them.
Then she hired another contractor, and they took my sister's money and did **** work and then stopped working on it entirely. So they're having to sue that contractor. It's amazing how many bad contractors are out there.
Yeah, I've actually had relatively good luck with contractors in Ca... It's heavily permitted and regulated here, so there isn't that much room for error.
My experience happened in Austin... No permits required... The forming failed and I told them I wanted it torn out while it was still wet, but they refused, and said it would be fine when it dried... It was visibly f**ked though... No miracle was going to happen when it dried... Then the Contractor wouldn't come back...
We had to hire a lawyer just to get him to answer our calls...
It was one of those things... Once you're so far under with the attorney, you just keep convincing yourself to keep going rather than kissing all that money goodby with nothing to show for it... But we never counted on the US Bankruptcy Court screwing us at the end of it all... We discovered this guy had like 7 bankruptcies under various names in the past, but they still tossed our claim...
Just figured I'd give an update and a shout out to you all on whats going on. The grinding crew couldn't show up because of "covid" so add that to the list of roadblocks. I have them here today and they are making a bunch of noise and a mess but my slab is slowly thinning. I have a testing lab coming out when they are done grinding. That test will determine the direction I move in. I will update with photos later. I apologies I haven't been more active but It's been a sun up to sun down kinda week and free time has been hard to find. Ill try and read through and answer individual questions soon. Thanks!
Bigblockyeti
Banned
How are they testing what's below, are they coring samples or using some other method? How many areas are they testing?