Insulating the interior of a Morton Building

[danieldd]

We recently moved onto a 90 acre property with a pretty sizable Morton building. Well, its damn hot in there. I just came out from being in it at 0730 today and its already heating up in there. I have attached a picture of the east interior wall, it gets the morning sun and standing 10 feet from the wall I can already feel the heat, so I've got to do something pronto.

If this was a regular 2x4 wall, I would know what to do, but in this case, I don't know. I need recommendations on how to insulate this thing.

 

[78SC4X4]

You have several options. Spray foam insulation is a good option, you can install xps foam board between the girts, or get the white poly backed fiber insulation made specifically for pole structures.

https://www.steelbuildinginsulation.com/polebuildings.html

Of course, you can always frame it in and do it that way............

 

[RADcustom]

I would also consider installing a fan in that wall to promote air circulation.

 

[Jakemedic]

I got in touch with this company and found a local distributor. I just picked up 8’ wide rolls of R19 that covers 465 square feet per roll. https://www.ancoproducts.com/textrafine
Reach out to them on their website and see where you can purchase their product made specifically for post frame. Haven’t got mine installed yet, but did buy the scaffolding to do it, along with ceiling wiring, insulation, vapor barrier and metal.

If you google Morton building insulation, they show using rolls of 8’ wide insulation. They claim it makes for an excellent insulated wall. Best of luck with your project!

 

[930dreamer]

X2 on spray foam. How big is the shop?

 

[CombatNinja]

x 3 on closed cell spray foam. It will cost some $ but it is the best way to do it. The economical solution would be unfaced fiberglass batts similar to what jake medic posted above. I don't like any other method on those steel buildings as anything with a vapor retarder/barrier runs the risk of trapping moisture between the barrier and the metal exterior. This is of course a consideration with any structure but when you combine "Alabama" with a "Morton" you get a propensity for condensation issues.

 

[Jeepster04]

I got in touch with this company and found a local distributor. I just picked up 8’ wide rolls of R19 that covers 465 square feet per roll. https://www.ancoproducts.com/textrafine
Reach out to them on their website and see where you can purchase their product made specifically for post frame. Haven’t got mine installed yet, but did buy the scaffolding to do it, along with ceiling wiring, insulation, vapor barrier and metal.

If you google Morton building insulation, they show using rolls of 8’ wide insulation. They claim it makes for an excellent insulated wall. Best of luck with your project!

How do you install that insulation? What holds it in place?

 

[Greenlawnracing]

My father-in-law has a large Morton building that he uses every day as he is a farmer. I believe it has been in the fan 30 some years and has had many upgrades over the years. He currently has spray foam on one side, and does have multiple ceiling fans. The spray foam was a recent upgrade, and made a huge difference

 

[danieldd]

Thanks for all the helpful replies and information. I like the spray foam idea, but I betcha its going to be expensive. Its a big shop, at least for me. I believe its 36X40 and the ceiling is 15-18 foot high. Only 3 sides would need to be done as the west wall is already insulated. I think the original building was about 2200sqft and they carved out an 800 sqft area and turned it into an apartment, so that portion is well insulated.

I will check prices for both spray foam and the 8 foot rolls, although I am not quite sure how to attach the rolled insulation. Gotta do something, its only going to get hotter.

 

[skippydoo]

Call morton for a quote. My 30x40x13 height 3 inches on roof, 2 on walls , closed cell was 7800. My walls are good, my roof has issues . Had to be ripped down and resprayed, but they did a terrible job. Cost me almost 2 k to keep it 50 degrees this winter , propane radiant in floor. When it snows, I've got like 20 spots the snow melts right away. I still believe in spray foam, just not the guy who did mine.

 

[danieldd]

Call morton for a quote. My 30x40x13 height 3 inches on roof, 2 on walls , closed cell was 7800. My walls are good, my roof has issues . Had to be ripped down and resprayed, but they did a terrible job. Cost me almost 2 k to keep it 50 degrees this winter , propane radiant in floor. When it snows, I've got like 20 spots the snow melts right away. I still believe in spray foam, just not the guy who did mine.

Yep, I plan on giving Morton a call this week as well...

 

[Jakemedic]

How do you install that insulation? What holds it in place?

It is a friction fit along with a vapor barrier. Will let you know how it works. It is reportedly “non floppy” like traditional fiberglass insulation.

Also reported that it won’t hold moisture like traditional fiberglass insulation.

 

[rsanter]

If you are talking radiant heat from the sun exposed side of the building, you could save money by insulating the roof and the exposed wall now and the rest later.

You can also use something like shade cloth or a tarp to help keep sun off the side of the building

 

[CraigStu]

Keep doing your research because from what I read metal buildings have problems w/ condensation in the cold months. Cold metal and heated inside air = water running down the inside of the metal. Which could of course ruin any insulation you install. Unfortunately I know enough to recommend being careful but not enough to say exactly how it should be done. Skippydoo's post is a good example of possible pitfalls.

 

[MetalBuildingFun]

I went down that rabbit hole and found that radiant barrier blocks the condensation from damaging your insulation. We wound up going with Prodex Total 10M Plus. It is a radiant barrier and insulation combined. It is not bubble wrap and is installed using a heat gun to seal the pieces together to make an airtight seal for no leaks. On our new build we had it put on the outside of the frame before the R panel was installed. We plan on installing a/c in our metal garage.

https://www.insulation4less.com/insulation4lessproduct-62-prodex-total-10m.aspx

 

[Marctrees]

Rough idea of open cell spray foam price is ballpark $1.50 for 6" thick / one sq ft coverage .... in and out and done in one day just write the check.

You could do 6" under roof, 4" walls for an rough avg of $1.25/ sq ft.

6" thick custom width encapsulated batts approx 50 cents/ sq ft... plus strapping or whatever to hold it up, plus labor up on scaffold in 100 degree ambient.

E tx prices.

Marc

 

[Greenlawnracing]

I’m at the farm this weekend, and talked to my father in lawn about his recent insulation. Was $6300 to do half of it, and an incredible discount.

 

[Jbullfrog]

Add perlins between the rafters and install a vapor barrier and ceiling. Then spray foam the walls. You are insulating to keep heat out, so the ceiling will do more then insulating the walls.

 

[My Old Tools]

I got in touch with this company and found a local distributor. I just picked up 8’ wide rolls of R19 that covers 465 square feet per roll. https://www.ancoproducts.com/textrafine
Reach out to them on their website and see where you can purchase their product made specifically for post frame. Haven’t got mine installed yet, but did buy the scaffolding to do it, along with ceiling wiring, insulation, vapor barrier and metal.

If you google Morton building insulation, they show using rolls of 8’ wide insulation. They claim it makes for an excellent insulated wall. Best of luck with your project!

This stuff works great. I doubled it on the roof. After build I would probably use thin metal strapping to hold it up, like they used on my ceiling.

 

[Marctrees]

Another source - for custom wide batts -

Marc

http://www.bayinsulation.com/

 

[nadogail]

Looks like people in the deep South are partial to Spray On Foam. I am not personally familiar with conditions in your location.

 

[danieldd]

I know its been awhile, but I just got a quote for spray foam. $5K to spray 4 inches thick of open cell foam. This includes 3 exterior walls, 2 large sliding doors, and the ceiling. This is a 36X36 shop. For 2 inches thick of closed cell foam, the prices increases and additional $1.2K to $6.2K. Not cheap.

I am waiting on the folks from Morton Buildings to give me a quote, which won't be available until next week.

I like the closed cell foam simply because its structural and also acts as a vapor barrier. However, the stuff is heavy and I worry about opening/closing the 2 large sliding doors of the shop. On the other hand, the open cell foam is much lighter, but is not structural and doesn't act like a vapor barrier.

One this is clear, foam insulation is not cheap...

I will include some pictures of the shop interior/exterior as soon as I get my **** off the couch (it may take a while).

 

[danieldd]

Pictures:

 

[Marctrees]

At TX/LA border 90 miles south of Shreveport - yesterday I finally got my foam sprayed - - 38x35x10 4/12 all Open cell - 7" +under roof, 5" + walls and gable ends.

Sprayed directly on typical new polebarn interior, straight to the steel and girts/ purlins.

That ends up approx 2900 sq ft total area roughly math @ 6" thick average.

So, roughly $1.45 per sq ft @ 6" thick.... so approx 24 cents per "Board ft"

They were not stingy w the foam, and VERY skilled sprayer and pro crew of 3 guys total.

Mature family biz been doing this for years, the Son comes in morning w the 3 guy crew to review everything and get them going.

2 overhead doors, one man door, 6 2x2' openings for fans, wall AC units, and intake vents.

Started spraying at 9 am, all cleaned up and down the road at 4 pm.

Amazing beautiful job... I did make clear I want it to look good, NEVER EVER seen OC sprayed as uniformly as this.

Very professional poly masking of everything.

NO ONE could have cleaned up any better.

Could not be any happier w the company.

Very communicative and organized Co.

O, they were the lowest bid of 5 competitors...I'm not gonna quote exactly what they charged out of respect for them cause it should have been more ( I think being a fussy observing on site customer I got a steal what with all the extra fill hence some scraping trimming needed by them)

But, to give you guys an idea of price I will say clearly under $4,500 out the door.

Glad to refer them to GJ members, they work roughly ballpark 100 miles radius of
Lufkin, TX.


Marc

 

[Marctrees]

I did start a new thread w the above post - Do not want to hijack this thread.

Marc

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=457764

 

[Earp69]

i just had 2 inches of close cell sprayed on my walls with r30 batts and vapor barrier over that. and the ceiling blown in with a r50 for 4000 dollars. 1800 of it was spray foam. the barn is 36x40x14

 

[nzjkb5]

Pictures:

Umm. pretty sure the first photo is not of the 36x36 shop you mentioned in the previous post. That shop looks much bigger...

Now that I look a little closer, maybe you are only adding insulation to half of it (because one half is already finished space)?

 

[danieldd]

Umm. pretty sure the first photo is not of the 36x36 shop you mentioned in the previous post. That shop looks much bigger...

Now that I look a little closer, maybe you are only adding insulation to half of it (because one half is already finished space)?

You are correct.

 

[danieldd]

An interim update:

Been really difficult to get a Morton representative out to the house. I called on 3 separate occasions until I just got pissed and called another Morton company in another state for help. They couldn't help me due to territory issues, but contacted the office in the state I am in and that must have lit a fire under somebody because they finally contacted me and came out the following day (today).

Hopefully I'll have a quote early next week. There are some constraints that will most likely add cost that will affect the quote. The walls are on 12 foot centers instead of the normal 6-7 foot centers. 12 foot centers will require additional studs to be inserted between the 12 foot centers to allow for the insulation to be properly applied. Additionally, since the ceiling trusses are also 12 foot on center, there would have to be additional bracing between the trusses before they attach the sheet metal tin to the ceiling. Once that is done - they would blow cellulose insulation above the tin ceiling. I like the idea of a white tin ceiling as it will help to brighten up the shop area.

Apparently when the shop was originally built, it must have been designed by the original owner for storage only and never intended to be insulated. So now that I am the new owner, I'm stuck with what I've got to work with.

The sliding doors are an issue as well. I've got two large doors that are 12 feet high that slide along a track. They don't normally insulate these type of doors, but it seems foolish to me to insulate the shop and not these doors, so I asked the salesman to come up with an alternative insulation idea for the doors, whether that is foam boards or something comparable.

Wishing the Morton quote will be less than the spray foam quote I received last week, but I'm not holding out much hope at this point.

Gotta do something. Its just too blasted hot to work in there during the day and this winter it will be just the opposite.

What price am I willing to pay for comfort?

 

[benjy]

I lucked out with my 30x50 Morton, the roof insulation that was shipped was the wrong bundle, it was damaged and packaged up to go back or somewhere and somehow it ended up getting loaded up & shipped with my bldg. Ended up with ~40 sheets of 4'x20' 1/2 radiant barrier insulation.

Insulated 90% of the walls so far, my 20' ladder doesn't quite reach the peaks without me standing on the last rung. Trimmed each piece to fit as best I could, using the scrap pieces to make ~6" x 1/2" spacers that I caulk to the siding, giving me 1/2" air gap between the radiant barrier side of and the metal. Hit 99 today (feels like temp was 109) and only 90 inside which still *****, shopping for a big fan this evening!

 

[danieldd]

I lucked out with my 30x50 Morton, the roof insulation that was shipped was the wrong bundle, it was damaged and packaged up to go back or somewhere and somehow it ended up getting loaded up & shipped with my bldg. Ended up with ~40 sheets of 4'x20' 1/2 radiant barrier insulation.

Insulated 90% of the walls so far, my 20' ladder doesn't quite reach the peaks without me standing on the last rung. Trimmed each piece to fit as best I could, using the scrap pieces to make ~6" x 1/2" spacers that I caulk to the siding, giving me 1/2" air gap between the radiant barrier side of and the metal. Hit 99 today (feels like temp was 109) and only 90 inside which still *****, shopping for a big fan this evening!

Gotta love that Texas heat!

 

[Marctrees]

Just remember for comparison you should be able to get 6" of Open cell for just under $1.50 per sq ft coverage, so pre figure that to have to compare.

Marc

 

[930dreamer]

Adding a ceiling and closed foam is what I'd go for. I have 80' of open ceiling so I'm in the some boat. Just look for a handful of local spray foam businesses and gets quotes.

 

[danieldd]

FINALLY got a quote from Morton. I think they're smoking crack because when they told me the quote, I immediately scoffed at their price...

So, to recap.... shop area is 36X36 with an open ceiling. Walls are 12 feet high. Only need 3 walls insulated as the 4th wall has already been done (which leads to a fully enclosed apartment within the building).

The area beneath the roof tin already has Thermax insulated boards that I think is good for R4 at a minimum. Walls and ceiling trusses are on 12 foot centers so they would have to add support to get walls on 6 foot centers and add support for the ceiling joists. Morton would attach an acoustical tin to the ceiling, add R30 insulation batts, add 6 inches of insulation to the walls and cover them with a vapor barrier. As for the 2 big *** sliding entry doors, not much there they can do other than to add the Thermax boards and call it a day.

$20,500 is the price quoted.


Ridiculous!

Here is what I know... Job would take two complete days with a crew of 3. They are renting a lift for the ceiling: $500, Porta Potty rental $150, Dumpster rental: $500. Their hourly labor rate is $51/hour.

So, labor is approximately $2,500. You subtract out the rental stuff and you are left with somewhere around $16,850 for materials.

Yeah, not gonna happen. Closed cell foam is looking a whole lot better for me at this point.

 

[dcg9381]

Spray foam has lots of advantages. I used open cell. Nothing wrong with closed cell, but I can tell you that you'll be happy with both.
For buildings like yours the "budget" option that I'd choose is to spray foam the roof deck (as it's a pain in the *** to deal with traditional insulation) - then frame the walls and do the rest in traditional insulation.

I'd add a fan way up to be able to pull the heat out as a first step... I've got a 40x60 with 3-4 inches of open cell spray foam. I use 2 ductless units. I'm in Texas and we keep the building cool when it's 108 outside.