Shed construction

[JackOfDiamonds]

I'm thinking about building a 10x12 or so shed. The loft will be storage, but I would like to have the option of making it a home office or hobby/craft workshop.

I wasn't planning on using sheathing, I was just going to put sheet siding directly on the studs. If I make 2x4 walls, I suppose I can finish it later by putting fiberglass insulation between the studs and putting sheetrock on the inside. However, if I do this should I put Tyvek between the studs and siding?

Instead of fiberglass, I could also put up sheets of the blue foam or foil-covered foam. However I'm not sure where that type of insulation goes... outside the studs, but inside Tyvek?

 

[nafterclifen]

No sheathing?!?!? Can you - yes. Should you - no!

f you don't use any sheathing, you're screwing yourself. Don't cheap out. Cheap never wins. You will require more maintenance, you loose structure strength and you loose some insulation without sheathing.

 

[readhead]

Sheet siding is fine as long as it has a structural rating like T1-11 or LP smart side.

 

[K'ledgeBldr]

Sheet siding is fine as long as it has a structural rating like T1-11 or LP smart side.

This^^^
The sealer and paint that you use on the exterior become your vapor barrier.

But, what does the primary structure have? I would want them to match (except for brick/stone- gotta draw the line somewhere when it comes to cost!).

 

[JackOfDiamonds]

I was going to use that siding that is basically OSB with a primed, prettier on one side. It's like $30-35 a sheet. The house is wood sided, I think. At least it looks like boards.

My mom's house in Ohio, and other houses from the same era, have no sheathing OR wood siding either. Just vinyl siding, then Tyvek, rigid foam insulation, then studs with fiberglass insulation between, then sheetrock and wallpaper. I think they use strips of metal running diagonally to stiffen the house. If they can build houses that way I don't see why I need to use $22@/sheet OSB plus siding on a shed. But if I decide to put the rigid insulation board on my shed I'm pretty sure the Tyvek is important too for some reason.

I live in Idaho which has pretty mild winters and dry the rest of the year. I've seen quite a few homeowner sheds that just have painted OSB exterior. It looks too bad for me to do it but it seems hold up for while surprisingly.

 

[engineer2]

LP Smartside is $32-$40 a sheet depending on the thickness. It looks nice too. It's been holding up great for 4 years so far. Poly caulk and good quality exterior paint are important. I insulated my shed mainly to keep it from being an oven in the summer.

 

[Chevy-SS]

No sheathing?? Build it right. It's so small, the extra cost is negligible. And since you may want to actually use the building for something other than tool storage, I'd be damn sure it was built right.... and solid.

 

[Bolson32]

I wasn't planning on using sheathing, I was just going to put sheet siding directly on the studs. If I make 2x4 walls, I suppose I can finish it later by putting fiberglass insulation between the studs and putting sheetrock on the inside. However, if I do this should I put Tyvek between the studs and siding?

Ignore everyone who says you need plywood as well. LP Sheet siding is gods plenty on a structure that small. You can build full-sized garages with that as the only sheathing. Hell they still frame houses with fiberboard.

As for wrap between the studs and the LP or T1-11, I would say it probably qualifies as overkill, but it's really not a terrible idea if you think there's a good chance you actually are going to finish it and condition it.

IMO 10x12 is a pretty small space to want to keep heated. If you are only going to heat it a few times a year I probably wouldn't even bother with insulation, you could have that baby toasty as heck with a sunflower heater.

edit* I just read you'd like to make it a home office or otherwise. I would check with your local jurisdiction to see the biggest you can build without a permit, most are 200sq ft. You could build a 12x16 to eek out a little more room. I'm still on the fence with housewrap, probably not a terrible idea since it won't cost much and you can do it before you stand the walls up.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, you should put a vapor barrier between the studs and the siding. Roofing felt at a minimum, to block the wind.

 

[strutaeng]

WTH? Sheet siding has an APA-rating, at least all of the ones I've seen locally:

http://pdf.lowes.com/installationguides/088991551152_install.pdf

There's got to be hundreds of thousands of homes across the States with this type of product.

 

[Kaizen]

What op is quoting is bare minimum for code.
Op if you are making it habitable that is one path vs what you are describing. An office space will need have and electric. Obviously that would not need an opening for a tractor. Forward thinking I’d do 2x6 walls with zip sheathing (air sealed) and insulate and seal floor. You can’t do this after easily. The better insulated/ built it will be the less hoax you need.
10x12 as a stand alone office seems cramped. I know it’s trending. See what others make work


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[eastbaysubaru]

What op is quoting is bare minimum for code.
Op if you are making it habitable that is one path vs what you are describing. An office space will need have and electric. Obviously that would not need an opening for a tractor. Forward thinking I’d do 2x6 walls with zip sheathing (air sealed) and insulate and seal floor. You can’t do this after easily. The better insulated/ built it will be the less hoax you need.
10x12 as a stand alone office seems cramped. I know it’s trending. See what others make work


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I like these suggestions and I'd also suggest 2x6 walls at the very least. It'll give you more room for insulation. Size seems a bit small, but I'm not sure if you're restricted on size due to various reasons.

-Brian

 

[Bolson32]

Holy ****, 2x6 and zip sheathing on a 10x12. Better pour an insulated slab while you're at it.

If money and time are no object sure. But you'd have to heat that thing for about 1500 years to see that ROI.



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[Kaizen]

Holy ****, 2x6 and zip sheathing on a 10x12. Better pour an insulated slab while you're at it.

If money and time are no object sure. But you'd have to heat that thing for about 1500 years to see that ROI.



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Guess you missed the two paths thing I spoke of


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[Bolson32]

Guess you missed the two paths thing I spoke of


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Habitable is a spectrum. A space that small could be comfortably conditioned without insulation.

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[Kaizen]

Habitable is a spectrum. A space that small could be comfortably conditioned without insulation.

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Eh that would be miserable in the dead of winter sitting at a desk on conference calls. Maybe air sealed it would work but you shat on that as well
Maybe for a potting shed it would be fine.

Point is spend a little more on the basic building in case you want to make it an office. 2x6 vs 2x4 not much difference in cost and offers more flexibility in future. A few batts to insulate floor not much.
Yielding cheap often costs more in the long run.


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[Bolson32]

Eh that would be miserable in the dead of winter sitting at a desk on conference calls. Maybe air sealed it would work but you shat on that as well
Maybe for a potting shed it would be fine.

Point is spend a little more on the basic building in case you want to make it an office. 2x6 vs 2x4 not much difference in cost and offers more flexibility in future. A few batts to insulate floor not much.
Yielding cheap often costs more in the long run.


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Yea, I'm not saying don't insulate it. I'm saying that Zip sheathing is a colossal overbuild for something like that. 2x6 construction, you're right not much more expensive and the benefits can be argued both ways. I built my most recent garage with 2x6s, but I can pretty much guarantee you won't actually be able to tell the difference with good air sealing and a decent heat source between that and 2x4 construction. My last garage was 60 years old, no house wrap, and I could have it a comfortable 70 degrees in there with an electric unit heater no problem and that was 500sq ft. 120sq ft and he's going to have to crack a window to fart.

 

[readhead]

I'm in the shed building business. A building that small you can heat with a match. A couple of years ago my son and I were finishing the inside of a 10 x 16 lofted barn. It was winter and around 20 degrees outside. We were using one halogen work light to see inside. Within minutes we were down to tee shirts and had the windows open.

2x4 construction with R13 will be very comfortable. The floor is usually the biggest problem. There are two ways to control heat loss. The easiest way is to close off the edge to the ground. That will keep cold air from circulating under the floor. The second way is to insulate the floor and there are several ways to do that but you will need to seal the bottom so critters don't come remove the insulation.

For heat in a shed that small a 24" base board heater will work fine. The ROI for 2x6 and R19 just isn't there. 2x6 walls will use up almost 7 square feet of floor space which is a lot in a building that small.

 

[theoldwizard1]

LP Smartside is $32-$40 a sheet depending on the thickness. It looks nice too. It's been holding up great for 4 years so far. Poly caulk and good quality exterior paint are important. I insulated my shed mainly to keep it from being an oven in the summer.

Looks great !

Is that T1-11 "style" ? How is LP Smartside made and what makes it better that T1-11 ?

 

[Bolson32]

Looks great !

Is that T1-11 "style" ? How is LP Smartside made and what makes it better that T1-11 ?

Yea, that's pretty much it. It actually *USED* to be cheaper than T1-11 pine siding and it's an OSB product so it's supposed to not warp. However, with COVID supply chain issues, it's now more expensive. And I'm noticing a fair bit of warp in the 3/8" panels I'm currently hanging on my garage.

It's treated with some type of water-resistant glue, so it's essentially a weather-resistant siding. It's not supposed to rot at all and the priming/pre-finishing is super tough. Probably holds up to woodpeckers and hail a bit better.

T1-11 is still pretty great stuff though, and properly cared for will last forever.

 

[readhead]

T1-11 is plywood and will require more maintenance over it's life. Smartside is OSB with an MDO that is primed and ready for paint. It is pretty much the standard of the shed industry. There is also matching trim available for Smartside and it is available in smooth or textured.

 

[Bolson32]

T1-11 is plywood and will require more maintenance over it's life. Smartside is OSB with an MDO that is primed and ready for paint. It is pretty much the standard of the shed industry. There is also matching trim available for Smartside and it is available in smooth or textured.

Pretty much just some fresh coats of paint every 15-20 years on LP right?

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[readhead]

I have had it on my house for twelve years and I turn the hose on it now and then to blow the dust off. It might need a repaint in ten years?

 

[theoldwizard1]

2x4 construction with R13 will be very comfortable. The floor is usually the biggest problem. There are two ways to control heat loss. The easiest way is to close off the edge to the ground. That will keep cold air from circulating under the floor. The second way is to insulate the floor and there are several ways to do that but you will need to seal the bottom so critters don't come remove the insulation.

If you don't pour a slab there are MANY different ways that you can "screw up" a floor ! (I wish readhead had given more recommendations !)

In my book, if you are NOT going to pour a slab, you need to start with removing the sod down about 6" deep and it should go out at least 1' beyond the walls of the shed. Lay down geotextile, back fill with gravel (NOT smooth/river rock) and compact. Use pre-cast concrete piers. Build your frame out of pressure treated wood. This is an area wher you want OVERKILL ! 2x8 or even 2x10 beams and joists 16" O.C. !

In cold climates insulating the floor is important, but you have to do something to prevent critter from ripping it up (1/2" galvanized wire mesh ?) and to minimize moisture (heavy plastic sheeting ?) before you lay in the insulation.

If it is for outdoor equipment storage I would use PT plywood for the floor. Better yet, 5/4 PT deck board (then you could probably go to 24" O.C. for the floor framing).

If you are going for a gambrel (barn style) roof your gussets are extremely important. Any roof, without ceiling joists, tries to push the tops of the wall outward. A storage shelf, properly attached at the top plate, will prevent this. In the area where there is no storage shelf I recommend a collar tie or better yet a rafter tie.

 

[Bolson32]

I have had it on my house for twelve years and I turn the hose on it now and then to blow the dust off. It might need a repaint in ten years?

Good to know, we have white board and batten on part of our house and that's what I'm doing my garage in. I can tell it could use a wash but doesn't seem to be fading at all.

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[readhead]

TOW1, we build complete sheds on skids for delivery so I don't deal with concrete. If you are going to build an above ground shed why would you go through all that work? Remember, you are building a roof over all that new gravel. I agree with the PT framing. 8"or 10" joists are way overkill unless there is very little support. The longest span for any of our floor joists is less that 5'.

 

[Bolson32]

Agreed, I built an 8x12 about 5 years ago and I'm pretty sure I used 8" joists, but I spanned the entire 8ft and hung them on deck blocks. I removed the sod under the blocks and put them on gravel, but there's no way I'd waste my time removing all of the soil. Unless you have machinery and it takes all of 5 minutes. Even then, not sure what I'd put back under there.

 

[theoldwizard1]

TOW1, we build complete sheds on skids for delivery so I don't deal with concrete. [/quote}
SMART !

If you are going to build an above ground shed why would you go through all that work?

I was not being clear. If building on concrete no floor or joist are required.

I agree with the PT framing. 8"or 10" joists are way overkill unless there is very little support. The longest span for any of our floor joists is less that 5'.

But you are connect that joist to a skid, which is good. A DIYer might try to span the 10' with no middle beam, not good.

 

[rburke65]

It’s like anything....you always wish later you would have spent the extra money and did it right.

 

[readhead]

Right is rather subjective. Which version should he use?

 

[engineer2]

Better yet, 5/4 PT deck board

That's how I did mine and I'm glad I did. I had a bunch from my old deck and flipped them over for flooring. I put it down after the walls were up. I used torx drive screws and can remove the any part of floor if needed, which I did when putting in electrical ground rods. The small gaps in the boards also prevent puddling when the snow melts off the snowblower. If a board goes bad, simply replace it. IMHO it's better and stronger than a plywood floor.

 

[JackOfDiamonds]

At this point I know what to do with my walls, but now I'm not sure at all about the foundation. I was thinking about taking out the sod, putting down an array of 4-inch cement blocks, and then building my floor on top of that. There wouldn't be any need for any large spans because the blocks would be every couple of feet. But I don't know what to do about keeping critters out or insulating. House crawl spaces are built differently and usually have piers and thick plastic moisture / vapor barrier covering the whole ground.

 

[bpjr]

I drafted a 10x20 shed plan and had it built in 1980. Concrete foundation with standard 2x4 construction and 2x6 rafters, ply deck with shingles. Used the box store composite siding that looks like wood grain on the outside and had a hard finish already. Siding only on the outside and no vapor barrier. I did some hurricane clips for additional strength but otherwise a basic no frills shed for my rider mower and other junk. It got its second caulk and paint job last yr with a few extra nails here and there to seal and tighten it up. I did metal over the original shingle roof back in 2006, otherwise have done no special maintenance on the structure. This is in Florida and that construction has worked fine for the last 40 yrs so I wouldn't get discouraged if you go this route.