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Quality tools are worth the money.
- Thread starter IATool
- Start date
Wakefield
Well-known member
I believe 6 point beats 12 point where the bolt/nut head has been exposed to salt. (If your are talking ordinary 6 point hex head fastener)
6 point impact sockets for persuasion unless clearance a problem
12 point wrenches for convenience
12 point impact specialty sockets for 12 point bolts in special situations (engine with crankcase that splits for disassembly)
6 point impact sockets for persuasion unless clearance a problem
12 point wrenches for convenience
12 point impact specialty sockets for 12 point bolts in special situations (engine with crankcase that splits for disassembly)
CGarage
Well-known member
That is why there is a proper order of use with tools starting with sockets first, before box wrenches and open end wrenches.
I’ve always began with 6 point sockets unless access was an issue, then I would go to a 12 point. If you buy good sockets, as long as crazy torque isn’t required, you will not round the fastener! Thank you, Facom!
I’ve always began with 6 point sockets unless access was an issue, then I would go to a 12 point. If you buy good sockets, as long as crazy torque isn’t required, you will not round the fastener! Thank you, Facom!
garfunkle24
Well-known member
That is why there is a proper order of use with tools starting with sockets first, before box wrenches and open end wrenches.
Comparing like-for-like, ie a 6pt socket or 6pt box wrench, why would a socket be preferable? The torque applied is more off-axis than it is with a wrench.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Comparing like-for-like, ie a 6pt socket or 6pt box wrench, why would a socket be preferable? The torque applied is more off-axis than it is with a wrench.
Like for like, the 6 point wrench would keep the load path more in line with fastener.
garfunkle24
Well-known member
Like for like, the 6 point wrench would keep the load path more in line with fastener.
My point exactly.
sberry
Banned
On bolts and nuts use a common 12 pt combo on everything I absolutely can. If its difficult I might resort to other things, use impact where I can and hand ratchet not so much anymore.
sberry
Banned
Most trade level guys with experience can support a ratchet to make it drive straight on. Handle on a long breaker bar helps a little. Most serious mechanic collections have some common features which is a few 6 pt tools in the sizes a guy needs them in, aint always gotta have every one they ever invented. My Brother picked up a fistful of 1/2 6 Cman at a sale, they ok and have a place on occasion but most of the time I like a 12 if its humanly possible.
Wakefield
Well-known member
Comparing like-for-like, ie a 6pt socket or 6pt box wrench, why would a socket be preferable? The torque applied is more off-axis than it is with a wrench.
There's another thing that could be done,if there is lots of room and you trust 3/4" to 1/2" drive adapters (the big impact looking ones,not the little chrome ones)
3/4" drive slider/t bar,in the middle,drive a 1/2" extension with your 6 point impact socket on the end of it,like a steering wheel and keep some push on it at the same time
otherwise,does it help to keep the extension as short as possible? (If the socket can't be put directly on the breaker bar or trusted ratchet?
garfunkle24
Well-known member
Most trade level guys with experience can support a ratchet to make it drive straight on. Handle on a long breaker bar helps a little.
Yes, it can be somewhat compensated for, but in pure mechanical terms the load applied is still further from the rotational axis.
otherwise,does it help to keep the extension as short as possible? (If the socket can't be put directly on the breaker bar or trusted ratchet?
Yes.
TuxThePenguin
Well-known member
otherwise,does it help to keep the extension as short as possible? (If the socket can't be put directly on the breaker bar or trusted ratchet?
The same force that makes extensions "bouncy" on an impact still apply to a hand ratchet. You just don't feel it bounce because you're not operating the ratchet the way an impact works.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
My point exactly.
Right, but a 6 point wrench is tough to get on a lot of fasteners. Only a completely unobscured fastener can be turned with one. Whereas a 60 tooth ratchet plus a 6 point socket can turn a lot more.
IME a 6point will always grip better on rotted stuff, but the number one thing is what fits. If you cant fit a ratchet, and you dont have a 6 point wrench clocked in the proper way, you're going 12 point, doesnt matter at that point.
garfunkle24
Well-known member
The same force that makes extensions "bouncy" on an impact still apply to a hand ratchet. You just don't feel it bounce because you're not operating the ratchet the way an impact works.
That's torsion within the extension, we're talking about off-axis torque. You are correct about that occurring though.
garfunkle24
Well-known member
Right, but a 6 point wrench is tough to get on a lot of fasteners. Only a completely unobscured fastener can be turned with one. Whereas a 60 tooth ratchet plus a 6 point socket can turn a lot more.
IME a 6point will always grip better on rotted stuff, but the number one thing is what fits. If you cant fit a ratchet, and you dont have a 6 point wrench clocked in the proper way, you're going 12 point, doesnt matter at that point.
You are quite correct. Was kind of splitting hairs and just talking in pure mechanical/physics terms.
Noworries
Banned
I think in a lot of ways tools are like politics and religion its often based on belief.. facts be damned. I watched a bideo of a guy torture testing a wobble extension. He was using a 24" 1/2 drive breaker bar with an impact rated 1/2-3/8 adapter the wobble extension and a 19mm cradtsman socket on a grade 8 bolt clamped in a large bench vise. His first attempt at trying to break it ended when he broke his vise. Ok new vise same setup, leans on it then leans on it more.. bolt shears. Care to guess who made that extension? Means nothing..grade 8 bah!! They are DESIGNED to shear under load... my point is his first attempt he busted a vise, his second the bolt. If i said that extension was snapon would anybody say, no **** would never thought that? But if I say its pittsburgh.. ******** junk. And yeah it was pittsburgh
Downwindtracker 2
Well-known member
We are living age of cheap quality sockets and wrenches. Today I was tightening some 9/16" head nuts on muffler clamps. Since these style nuts don't have a lot of bearing surface and I needed a deep, I grabbed 6pt. Thanks to GJ here I had filled out a rack of 6pts. It was a nicely made socket, guess the brand, Evercraft ?? Taiwan. Never heard of them? well, neither have I. I must have picked it out of a clearance bin. I can show you sockets from big name brands that I found at the fleamarket that much cruder.
BlakeTheCarGuy
ALLIANCE MEMBER
We are living age of cheap quality sockets and wrenches. Today I was tightening some 9/16" head nuts on muffler clamps. Since these style nuts don't have a lot of bearing surface and I needed a deep, I grabbed 6pt. Thanks to GJ here I had filled out a rack of 6pts. It was a nicely made socket, guess the brand, Evercraft ?? Taiwan. Never heard of them? well, neither have I. I must have picked it out of a clearance bin. I can show you sockets from big name brands that I found at the fleamarket that much cruder.
Evercraft I believe is Napa’s economy line I was there the other day to get some of the flammable brake cleaner and seen the Evercraft tools on sale.
Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal
redwrench60
Well-known member
Some categories it really shows up. I'd pick a worn out Ridgid pipe wrench over a brand new soft toothed fitting fucker China pipe wrench any day of the week.
Downwindtracker 2
Well-known member
Evercraft I believe is Napa’s economy line I was there the other day to get some of the flammable brake cleaner and seen the Evercraft tools on sale.
Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal
Napa, here in Canada, Napa tools are called Ultrapro . I had to buy some to fix our old tent trailer springs beside the road. That's how I know that, chuckle. I wonder how KMS here in BC got one? So it wasn't so unknown.
BlakeTheCarGuy
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Napa, here in Canada, Napa tools are called Ultrapro . I had to buy some to fix our old tent trailer springs beside the road. That's how I know that, chuckle. I wonder how KMS here in BC got one? So it wasn't so unknown.
Never heard of UltraPro so maybe it’s Evercraft here and UltraPro there it could have been they bought a surplus of their tools and sold them at a discounted price at the place you got them I have some Evercraft tools from the pawn shops so it’s ok stuff. That’s what a lot of stores in my area does is buys the stuff when places have extras and they can sell them at a discounted price.
Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal
Of course they are. That said most of my wrenching was done with what I could afford back in the 80's driving junk. I still have a lot of those cheap Taiwan and Indian tools. I pulled engines, dropped transmissions you work with what you have at the time.
As a woodworker by profession I know the value of a good tool, some of my shop equipment is older than me.
Totally agreed. Most often quality tools produce quality result and able to ensure reliability. So, definitely worth the money.
Yeah. And for a given extension bar length, the cam-off force gets lower as you use a longer wrench. For example, if you double the wrench length, you halve the force needed on the handle to produce a given torque at the fastener. By halving that force, you also halve the force acting on the lever of the extension bar to cam the socket off the fastener head.otherwise,does it help to keep the extension as short as possible? (If the socket can't be put directly on the breaker bar or trusted ratchet?
A while ago I started a thread here about these forces:
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=422686
You might find it and the replies interesting.
Dakotadadv8
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 30, 2021
- Messages
- 1,487
I believe more and more are DIYer and will appreciate quality tools. I showed someone the difference between CM and SO ratchet and socket and he realized the difference as well as the $. Even a simple screwdriver quality is different. Like others have said DIYer are willing to accept less quality = $, companies will take advantage of this.I'm not so sure most of the future's young people would be grateful for hand tools, quality or not. Consider the tons of once cherished furs and silver plate flatware that's now unwanted.
For the last couple hundred years, life has been getting easier and better. Someday, a box of tools might be seen as yet another collection of the implements of drudgery, like butter churns and wash boards.
Tools are good for what they can do now -- the future, who knows?
RickyPetite
Well-known member
My dad had a motor shop that employed about 10 mechanics, none of which were required to provide their own tools. My dad bought boatloads of cheap tools that got abused and broken. When he passed, I had the pleasure of sorting through this pile of rubble. Broken sockets, chipped screwdrivers, bent pliers...all went into the trash. I salvaged the few functional tools that remained and added them to my set. As a DIY'er, my needs are modest although I have ever since been determined to own a complete set of quality tools. Tools that perform as designed, don't complain about it and will be there to pass on to my son. Vanity project? Perhaps. It is nice, however, to add high-quality stuff a little at a time and build a set that you can be proud of.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
No one argues that quality tools are worth the price. The disagreement is in the definition of what today (not yesterday) qualifies as a quality tool. My friends and I bought $20,000 dollars worth of TOPTUL to completely outfit our three respective garages. In my opinion TOPTUL makes truly high quality tools. What I bought for $20,000 would have easily cost $150,000 from Snap-On. However, as you all know, there is a contingent that states if it's not from a tool truck it's garbage. Oddly enough our Porsches don't seem to be able to tell the difference but our wallets sure could. Most of the ICON line at Harbor Freight is pro level quality and those that deny that simply have a closed mind to reality. Today the difference between Tekton and Snap-On can be measured in tenths of a percentage point. Fifteen years ago that difference was miles apart. My cousin in Germany sells German made forges and presses all over the world. His biggest market by far is Taiwan and China. If they have the best machine tools, and for the most part they do, there is little reason that they cannot make world class products. The garbage tools of yesterday, and they were garbage there is no arguing that, are now 90% as good as the top of the line. The entire automotive world is shutting down because one Taiwanese company, TSMC, can't make them the chips they need to finish cars. TSMC has the finest semiconductor tools in the world. The most critical of which come from Holland (ASML's EUV steppers) USA (Lam Research etchers and KLA-Tencor defect tools) and Japan (Tokyo Electron tracks and diffusion furnaces). The best stuff in the world can now be made anywhere in the world. You can shout USA, USA, USA all you want that doesn't make us the best. Intel, for example, is the best American semiconductor manufacturer by far. They are at least three years and maybe longer behind TSMC. The same is true in many other industries. Making tools is likely one of them.
RickyPetite
Well-known member
"Oddly enough our Porsches don't seem to be able to tell the difference but our wallets sure could."
Playing devil's advocate: How would you feel if Porsche used suppliers that cranked out thousands of parts/day. I'm sure that quality control at Porsche mandates that parts be made deliberately and to tight standards. This increases cost but the overall product is of a higher quality. Just because overseas manufacturers have German tooling doesn't mean that they don't crank out tools as fast as they can make them for as little cost as possible. I agree that the gap between "Pro" and "cheap" tools has narrowed considerably. However, to believe that they are made to the same standards (and by extension that the "Pro" tools cost more for no good reason) is untrue IMO.
Playing devil's advocate: How would you feel if Porsche used suppliers that cranked out thousands of parts/day. I'm sure that quality control at Porsche mandates that parts be made deliberately and to tight standards. This increases cost but the overall product is of a higher quality. Just because overseas manufacturers have German tooling doesn't mean that they don't crank out tools as fast as they can make them for as little cost as possible. I agree that the gap between "Pro" and "cheap" tools has narrowed considerably. However, to believe that they are made to the same standards (and by extension that the "Pro" tools cost more for no good reason) is untrue IMO.
When I started out I had all Craftsman SAE and as I found out what ones I used the most once a month I would treat myself to a Snap-on wrench 1/2, 9/16, 7/16, 3/8, 5/8 and so on until I had a set. Did I really need to get them, not really the Cmans worked fine but the Snap-on just seem to fit better. Same thing with metric I bought a VW Bug bought a Craftsman set then found I used 10mm and 13mm a lot so I bought them first and then as I worked on it I picked up the ones I found myself picking up more It was a long slow way to get really nice tools but I never had the money to buy full sets off the truck.
merkyworks
Well-known member
”crank out tools as fast as they can make them for as little cost as possible. “
playing devil‘s advocate as well……Why would any manufacturer (US/European/Asian) not want to produce a product as fast as possible for as little as possible?
dnschmidt
Well-known member
Simple, quality is obvious. Pick up any TOPTUL wrench or socket and tell me that there are any better. Many on this forum bought TOPTUL wrenches and sockets from me when I was selling them and ask them what they think. It's a damn wrench not a complex computer controlled machine. If you think Porsches are build by little elves in a hollow tree you're mistaken. They, like most manufacturers use CNC machines to crank out their parts just like everybody else does. Now is the level of quality control that Porsche uses greater than others, like Volkswagen, it's parent company routinely uses - probably. With quality machine tools, none of which make defects on purpose, it's easier today to make a high performance hand tool. All it takes is quality materials and the will to do so. You are no longer depending upon the skill of an operator.
RickyPetite
Well-known member
It has been said that Williams USA tools are made with Snap On's "old dies". I assume that this means that over time, the tooling gets dull and starts to make a less precise product. SO retires these older dies etc to Williams USA. This is an expensive practice, it would be much more profitable to keep using the old machines until they could be used no more. I'm sure that many companies take the latter approach. Given the precision and overall stellar quality Porsche is known for, I assume that SO's philosophy would be more in line with Porsche.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
And that is the key question. How much are you paying for the Snap-On name and how much are you paying for a TRULY superior tool. Do I like my 911 - Yes. Is it as reliable as my Hyundai was and my current Toyota is? NO.I had a Porschewagen 914. I know it wasn't in the same class as a 911, but I don't know if it was really anymore or less reliable then the VW Bug I had. I do know the parts for it cost a lot more.
I went from a TR-4A to the 914 so the reliability went up by tenfold on that move. Also something to think about in Europe the 914 was sold as a VW in the USA it was sold as a Porsche . Same car just different badges on it. So was I getting Porsche quality or VW quality ?
KnurledNut
Well-known member
How much is tool truck service worth?How much are you paying for the Snap-On name and how much are you paying for a TRULY superior tool.
If the buyer isnt serviced by a driver, then the value of those brands is lost.
We are always looking for the "Excalibur" of tools. My quest has taken on the form of the 10mm wrench. I would hate to count the number of different brands of them I have . Right now my Excalibur is the Snap--on FD+ , but I'm still pulling wrenches out of stones just in case there is a better Excalibur out there ;-)
this is a tired debate.... by saying ONLY the US made stuff is quality is saying no other country on this planet can produce a quality tool??? For all the "only made in the USA" folks...where are your tv's, phones, computers, dvd players, bla bla bla made??? I grew up in the 60's/70's where the ONLY chinese tools were from taiwan and that was pure junk. It has only been in the past 5 years I even considered buying tools from Harbor Freight and that was because a lot of the stuff NAPA sells at 4x the price is exactly the same stuff... so please...like I am a 5 year old member of this "new Generation", explain why I need to pay 60 bucks for a break piston tool at NAPA rather than get the exact same thing for 15 bucks at HF????There are many obvious benefits to well made, well designed tools. But, their is a new generation that is used to buying cheap China product, most new products they grew up owning were from China. This crowd will defend the HF China tool to the bitter end.
Downwindtracker 2
Well-known member
The talk of quality tools has been on the hard line tools, socket and wrenches, at the level of quality now a days, even Indian made tools may make the grade. But specialty tools are different story. There a tiny detail will make a huge difference on the effectiveness of the very tool. Making it useful or simply a waste of steel. Here is where buying from Princess Auto or if American, HF,can lead to a very frustrating experience. I've had such experiences with pullers and snap ring pliers. Even the Taiwanese don't always get it right.
If you're lucky! Last time I pawned tools I got hardly anything. Henceforth I only buy tools from pawnshops, never sell.Good plan, pay 300 for something g today you can pawn for 75 10 years from now.
My philosophy is to pay for a tool what I feel I'll get out of it. I don't buy to collect, I don't buy to pass on, I don't buy to invest - I buy to use. Typically that is not the cheapest tool but not the most expensive either. My home tools are a hodge-podge of quality: Sockets are Craftsman, ratchets are S-K, wrenches are Bonney.
Quality tools are worth the money. Question is what are the money worth?
The proper way of thinking about it would be the following definition: Cost is an amount of life/time equivalent one has to spend to obtain a tool.
I have the following approach:
-If needed now and for a job which you are NOT going to do frequently and where you are NOT risking spending too much time fixing consequences if malfunction/break of the tool occurs causing problem with work - buy an average tool with work - buy an average tool
-If needed now and for a job which you are NOT going to do frequently and where you ARE risking spending too much time fixing consequences if malfunction/break of the tool occurs causing problem with work - buy a very good quality tool
-If needed now and for a job which you ARE going to do frequently and where you are NOT risking spending too much time fixing consequences if malfunction/break of the tool occurs causing problem with work - buy an average quality tool and wait till you get a deal if price difference between very good and average quality is large or a very good quality tool if price difference is small
-If needed now and for a job which you ARE going to do frequently and where you ARE risking spending too much time fixing consequences if malfunction/break of the tool occurs causing problem with work - buy the best tool you can afford
-buy top quality tools if possible when you find exceptional deals and you have a good probability of using a tool
This is for DIY people like me. Would probably work for a professional guy.
The proper way of thinking about it would be the following definition: Cost is an amount of life/time equivalent one has to spend to obtain a tool.
I have the following approach:
-If needed now and for a job which you are NOT going to do frequently and where you are NOT risking spending too much time fixing consequences if malfunction/break of the tool occurs causing problem with work - buy an average tool with work - buy an average tool
-If needed now and for a job which you are NOT going to do frequently and where you ARE risking spending too much time fixing consequences if malfunction/break of the tool occurs causing problem with work - buy a very good quality tool
-If needed now and for a job which you ARE going to do frequently and where you are NOT risking spending too much time fixing consequences if malfunction/break of the tool occurs causing problem with work - buy an average quality tool and wait till you get a deal if price difference between very good and average quality is large or a very good quality tool if price difference is small
-If needed now and for a job which you ARE going to do frequently and where you ARE risking spending too much time fixing consequences if malfunction/break of the tool occurs causing problem with work - buy the best tool you can afford
-buy top quality tools if possible when you find exceptional deals and you have a good probability of using a tool
This is for DIY people like me. Would probably work for a professional guy.