Is non-DIY really so different?

[motterpaul]

I have been researching this for two weeks now. I have not yet done an install but I have fixed things around my house before (the LED strips in my big screen TV, our oven igniter, a control board for a washing machine).

Mr. Cool is DYI and costs $500 more than Pioneer for example. But the only step Mr. Cool eliminates is vacuuming the system, which only requires a vacuum pump and a manifold gauge (total cost for a cheaper set about $100) and is not a complicated process.

Otherwise, the entire process is the same; hang the indoor unit, connect electricity, connect drainage hose, and communication wires. Then you have to bend the copper and seal the flares - and that is the critical part. That is for DIY or not-DIY

For a Pioneer a typically handy guy can understand how to connect the hoses and gauges and use the vacuum pump to get the PSI down to -29" and let it rest 30 minutes to make sure you have all tight fittings. Then you just turn off the pump, seal up the lines and disconnect the vacuum, and then you take a hex wrench and open up the valves on the outdoor unit and let the coolant flow into the line set.

Here in the manual; PART 5: https://www.pdhvac.com/site/downloads/WYE_IM_3.pdf

This last paragraph is the only difference. If you call an HVAC tech to do it (and many guys do this) he might pump nitrogen into the system at 500 PSI to really test the seals before he lets the refrigerant go. This is a good thing to do, but it is not considered to be a vital part of the install.

In fact, fixing a leaky system is much more complicated than doing the initial install because you have to recover any refrigerant that is left, weigh it, test for leaks, vacuum pump, and then add a certain amount of more refrigerant after calculations made for how much to put in. And this would be the same for a Mr Cool or a Pioneer.

What am I missing? (I am trying to get to the point where I really understand the process). Now, I do understand this - a PRO would do much more testing, and would know how to torque the flare nuts, and to use nitrogen for hi-pressure testing. He would have the best soap, a scale, nitrogen, spare tanks, etc. If anything did go wrong then a pro is super valuable. But if you hire a pro, make sure you are hiring a pro.

 

[830singleshot]

I helped a friend I a 3 ton Mr cool.
Last week I installed a 1 ton Pioneer for myself. I spent about $160 for nylog, eccentric flaring tool, gauge set and vacuum pump.
It made a much nicer install than curling up the excess lineset. I found a great video on making flares and practiced so I had no trouble there. For me, it definitely was the way to go. But I'm very methodical. A pro couldn't afford to spend that much time.

 

[Kaizen]

Compare two of the same make for cost savings. I too will be attempting this and don’t think it’s too hard. But if you do screw it up you can kill the unit fast.
I do love my diy unit but it is unsightly.
I believe a unit without a charge is a little more complicated.


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[Jim greengo]

I have been researching this for two weeks now. I have not yet done an install but I have fixed things around my house before (the LED strips in my big screen TV, our oven igniter, a control board for a washing machine).

Mr. Cool is DYI and costs $500 more than Pioneer for example. But the only step Mr. Cool eliminates is vacuuming the system, which only requires a vacuum pump and a manifold gauge (total cost for a cheaper set about $100) and is not a complicated process.

Otherwise, the entire process is the same; hang the indoor unit, connect electricity, connect drainage hose, and communication wires. Then you have to bend the copper and seal the flares - and that is the critical part. That is for DIY or not-DIY

For a Pioneer a typically handy guy can understand how to connect the hoses and gauges and use the vacuum pump to get the PSI down to -30 microns and let it rest 30 minutes to make sure you have all tight fittings. Then you just turn off the pump, seal up the lines and disconnect the vacuum, and then you take a hex wrench and open up the valves on the outdoor unit and let the coolant flow into the line set.

Here in the manual; PART 5: https://www.pdhvac.com/site/downloads/WYE_IM_3.pdf

This last paragraph is the only difference. If you call an HVAC tech to do it (and many guys do this) he might pump nitrogen into the system at 500 PSI to really test the seals before he lets the coolant go. This is a good thing to do, but it is not considered to be a vital part of the install.

In fact, fixing a leaky system is much more complicated than doing the initial install because you have to recover any coolant that is left, weigh it, test for leaks, vacuum pump, and then add a certain amount of more coolant after calculations made for how much to put in. And this would be the same for a Mr Cool or a Pioneer.

What am I missing? (I am trying to get to the point where I really understand the process). Now, I do understand this - a PRO would do much more testing, and would know how to torque the flare nuts, and to use nitrogen for hi-pressure testing. He would have the best soap, a scale, nitrogen, spare tanks, etc. If anything did go wrong then a pro is super valuable. But if you hire a pro, make sure you are hiring a pro.

It's a lot easier to find a leak with nitrogen than with a vacuam pump in my experiance.
I think you mean 29" of vacuam,not microns.

 

[jjrbus]

One big thing that kept me from Mr Cool was that coil of tubing on the ground. Out behind the barn ok, but not next too my house! Since then I learned about serpentine install of lines and Mr Cool has shorter linesets. But they still do not have a 9000 btu unit which I needed.

Life has taught me if I do not want to do the research, buy the right tools for the job. Then I should not be attempting to do it. I have quite a few tools which I have used once and quite a few I have sold or gave away.

 

[yeldogt]

The new Mr. Cools have separate line sets -- you don't have to get the unit with the line attached to the head .....although they are cheaper. This allows for a bit better fit as many simple installs need 16'


Lots of people screw up the flares ... many of the non-DIY will not have a warranty (if that matters)

There are pros and cons to going each way -- for a simple install in a warmer climate where the cold weather operation is not critical --- there is a strong case for the Gen 3 Mr. Cool.

$160 seems cheap --- having a good flare tool is critical. From your other posts -- you know the pitfalls

 

[vavet]

I used the Mr Cool Advantage. It is not a DIY install, but there's really no reason it couldn't be if you install it as it comes out of the box. I have a coworker and friend who has a hobby interest in HVAC work, so he has tools to do and he came over to help me. It would've been nearly impossible for one person to do the work as you're feeding linesets through the wall and trying the bend the lineset evenly. That would be the same regardless if DIY or not.
One perk of the Advantage unit was the significantly lower cost, although also shorter warranty. I made a decision that was willing to self-warranty for the price difference. My coworker has a license to work with refrigerant, but he's not a contractor. I'm not sure if Mr. Cool would honor any warranty on my unit. I haven't tried to use it, but I did register it.
Another perk of the Advantage unit and having a pro install is being able to shorten the lines. I'm really glad I don't have a coil or serpentine of lineset somewhere. Mine is cut to the right length and my coworker re-flared the lines and put the vacuum on it to verify integrity before releasing the refrigerant. It looks much better because the lineset is the right length. We installed it October 2019 and it's been wonderful!!!

 

[motterpaul]

Fixed the 29", thanks. Like I said in other posts, I have two units which were installed and worked fine the first year, then the next year they were both blowing hot. I have had two different pro companies look at them using nitrogen and soap, and also expensize detectors, and neither could find leaks in either unit. Very frustrating. They reloaded them and they both only lasted two months. I think the problem was the lower flares, there seems to be some oil there, but it also could be the service valve.

I never heard of the Mr. Cool advantage, nor did I know the head comes connected (if I read that right). I am pretty sure the Pioneer line sets are already flared when delivered, but if you cut to length you have to reflare. I don't think it is too horrible to have a little extra line set coiled up. I have that on my mancave because you are supposed to have at least 10-feet of line (IIRC)

Anyway - HighSeer now has a new product, "Kwik-e-vac" in a can, that eliminates the need for a vacuum pump. It isn't cheap and if you screw up the process you will need to buy a new can (or a vacuum pump). I am not sure I would use this but it is there.

https://www.pioneerminisplit.com/co...r-conditioning-systems?variant=31863667195946

 

[Kaizen]

Fixed the 29", thanks. Like I said in other posts, I have two units which were installed and worked fine the first year, then the next year they were both blowing hot. I have had two different pro companies look at them using nitrogen and soap, and also expensize detectors, and neither could find leaks in either unit. Very frustrating. They reloaded them and they both only lasted two months. I think the problem was the lower flares, there seems to be some oil there, but it also could be the service valve.

I never heard of the Mr. Cool advantage, nor did I know the head comes connected (if I read that right). I am pretty sure the Pioneer line sets are already flared when delivered, but if you cut to length you have to reflare. I don't think it is too horrible to have a little extra line set coiled up. I have that on my mancave because you are supposed to have at least 10-feet of line (IIRC)

Anyway - HighSeer now has a new product, "Kwik-e-vac" in a can, that eliminates the need for a vacuum pump. It isn't cheap and if you screw up the process you will need to buy a new can (or a vacuum pump). I am not sure I would use this but it is there.

https://www.pioneerminisplit.com/co...r-conditioning-systems?variant=31863667195946

Yea my mr cool diy had head connected. I just put it on a desk chair and unrolled the line. Fed through solo as the chair rolled as I fed. Stressful though as you never want to kink the line.


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[tonyciambrone]

Another terminology nitpick- Refrigerant not Coolant...

 

[motterpaul]

Another terminology nitpick- Refrigerant not Coolant...

I don't mind being corrected, it's all part of my learning process. Thanks for the input.

BY THE WAY -- I just ordered two new units from HighSeer (which is also
pd-hvac.com for Parker Davis) and they gave me a 15% loyal customer discount because of my travails (I was working with the warranty department). That discount came to $222 for two units, which is more than the shipping from FL to CA.

I'm pretty happy about that.

 

[SALIV8]

I don't mind being corrected, it's all part of my learning process. Thanks for the input.

BY THE WAY -- I just ordered two new units from HighSeer (which is also
pd-hvac.com for Parker Davis) and they gave me a 15% loyal customer discount because of my travails (I was working with the warranty department). That discount came to $222 for two units, which is more than the shipping from FL to CA.

I'm pretty happy about that.

Very important tip: do NOT use the flare fittings that come with On the pre flared linesets. You need to remove the flare fittings off the factory equipment, and use these on both sides of the lineset.

Very well may be your current issue also.

This is not me just saying this. The manufacturer’s lead tech for Gree (the units I have) personally warned me of this when I spoke with him regarding my units.

 

[motterpaul]

Very important tip: do NOT use the flare fittings that come with On the pre flared line sets. You need to remove the flare fittings off the factory equipment and use these on both sides of the lineset.

Very well maybe your current issue also.

This is not me just saying this. The manufacturer’s lead tech for Gree (the units I have) personally warned me of this when I spoke with him regarding my units.

That is interesting, I have not heard that anywhere else. I will have to call the tech support from the company and see what they say. It seems misleading to put flares on the lines that don't work, they would be better off not putting them on there. I also looked at the instructions and I don't recall them saying you need to flare again.

Maybe it is just common knowledge. If it is I am sure other people will ring in here.

I have seen people saying those plastic FlareSeal inserts work really well.

 

[SALIV8]

From what i was told the pre flared linesets are not factory pieces. They are a 3rd party and the threads/connections are typically slightly off just enough to cause problems in the future.

 

[gagecalman]

You will also need a vacuum gage that reads in microns. I believe you want to evacuate the system below 500 microns to remove all of the moisture. The gage on a manifold set will not read that. It's too crude.

 

[yeldogt]

Don't use the pre-made flares ... you want to match them to the head and condenser.

 

[motterpaul]

Here is a good video showing a bad factory flare: (at 8:28).

Do you recommend getting an eccentric flaring tool?

 

[motterpaul]

I helped a friend I a 3 ton Mr cool.
Last week I installed a 1 ton Pioneer for myself. I spent about $160 for nylog, eccentric flaring tool, gauge set and vacuum pump.
It made a much nicer install than curling up the excess lineset. I found a great video on making flares and practiced so I had no trouble there. For me, it definitely was the way to go. But I'm very methodical. A pro couldn't afford to spend that much time.

This sounds like my situation. I have the same things all in my shopping cart for Amazon.

People have been asking me how my "tech" recharged my units. Well, I found it on YouTube on a video called "hacking your Pioneer mini split - Don't Try This At Home"

Basically he has the system running and he uses the manifold gauge to slowly get the pressure to about 129 PSI (I think I am saying this correctly). He adds it in slowly so as not to overcharge. The guy in the video says the danger is that you can get liquid into the compressor.

I think it is the same technique as those self-contained rechange kits you can buy for about $100 made by Frosty Freeze.

 

[nadogail]

Sometimes I use a professional so that I can have somebody else to blame for the inevitable time that a job doesn't end perfectly.

 

[jjrbus]

I read about not using the flairs on pre made linesets, also the nuts are too light duty.

I bought a Daikin install kit which included a flair gauge. I checked and IIRC 3 of the 4 premade flairs failed the gauge test.

https://www.trutechtools.com/Pro-Set-FTXSGFlaring-and-Swaging-Tools-R410a-Flare-Sizing-Gauge?gclid=CjwKCAjwnK36BRBVEiwAsMT8WJ_8UYAMlXMNhvauoWNjtmB29SnX_P-U0sxdFDQ7BoHAQM5ex46m1xoCDcAQAvD_BwE