little help - new service/ shop first, then house

[Shovelhead]

I thought I had this figured out until the Co-op shot me down.

Situation:
fixin to retire and move to our property in East Texas.
Have to sell current home prior to building new home.
Plan is to build new shop - 42x54
Move furniture into shop, sell house, build new house.

I figured a 325A meter can, feeding two 200A disconnects, one to main panel in shop, the other to main panel in house.

Co-op says no you don't.
We only run one 200A service. Anything bigger will have to have metered CT's @ the xfmr.

I said I ain't building a F'n water treatment plant here. I do not get their reasoning.

Load? --- two old people, <2000 sq ft house, all electric minus propane stove and water heater.

shop-some woodworking equipment, only 240V would be maybe dust collector, table saw, compressor.
One window A/C unit(120V), one or two 240V mini split units.
Do not weld, no plan for a vehicle lift, but ain't completely ruled it out.

Way to accomplish this via a single 200A service?

I talked to local electrician at boat ramp last week and he said something about meter can with feed thru lugs and then go to house. Don't remember the #'s, 100A to house don't sound right to me.

I am about ready to make the ride to the Co-op and speak with their electrical engineer face to face. Can't get anything done via emails and telephone. But, I need to know my facts first.

I'm not an electrician, I've nearly 40 yrs with an electric utility with experience in 12kv-138kv. Substation maintenance.
I did wire my current shop and am capable of most wiring jobs.

Thanks

 

[sberry]

A 200 with feed thru can actually feed 200 thru. You can put 200 in the house. They are actually doing you a favor, all this is so much simpler under 1 main. Way easier if you ever want back up power. There is no way you need 400 here. The object is to have adequate, not to see how much you can use.
I have 400, if I was doing it again would do 200 and I have a gob of connected equipment,,, wa_yyyyyyy beyond what a typical home has especially if you are using gas water heater and cooking. Welding and hoist are so intermittent they are not even really a factor.

 

[sberry]

A house with gas hot water and cooking can easily and then some run on 100. Will run 50, easy. Other major load is dryer. 25A. Remember,,, all that stuff doesn't use any when it's not running. Hoist has a cycle of 45 seconds. Even a dryer doesn't draw full when it's not on hi.

 

[sberry]

So much is "energy effecient" anymore. Sometimes it doesn't mean much, the peak is lower. We got more stuff with lower peak and now lights that are almost moot compared to back in the day when they design all this and when the load calc formulas were developed.
I know this is electric but plumbing is similar. Same 1/2 line can feed 4x as many as it used to, same for drains, maybe more. Gallon a minute over the same time used to need 4.
Some doesn't work as well oversized or certainly doesn't make any difference. 3 inch drain works better than 4, hot water uses so much less and so much faster down smaller line etc. Lighter cheaper wire makes some better connections, cheaper makes it easier to run more switching etc.

 

[Bert_]

You can feed 200 to both of a single 200a meter/main if if you want. Probably not necessary though.

You should do a load calculation before you assume you need a 400 or 200 or whatever.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I would do a load calc first.

otherwise, everyone is just throwing numbers around.

And i have not heard of a 325a meter pan.

theres 400a/320 continuous meter pans.

but i doubt you need that much juice.

the load calc will tell you for sure....

200a should suffice for what you listed

 

[Shovelhead]

Yes, I understand I will never come close to a need for 3-400A .
I "thought" the reason to use that equipment was due to lugs/connections/wire size/ and serving the 200A main panels.
Don't know, as stated I ain't no electrician.
Just going by what I've seen installed in the field for pretty much the same application.

Load calc. >>> I ain't smart enough to know where to start to obtain that.
I kinda figure that's throwin numbers around as well.
Who's to say what, how often and at what times, any and/or all devices will be ON and adding load.

Good to know a single 200A service "should" be ok.
4/0 aluminum triplex underground <100' from xfmr pole to shop. Right?

 

[Shovelhead]

If any of y'all have time and the kindness to point me to exactly what this setup looks like I'd appreciate it.
All mounted to outside of shop.
200A feed UG from xfmr pole to the meter on shop. (Co-op has to provide this).
Then what, to what, to what.
Wire size.

Another thing that pissed me off. My current house I built the weatherhead, laid the conduit and pulled the wire to the meter. They won't allow that around here.

Pick a load calc #, I don't care. LOL!!

 

[sparky 1971]

I would just install a 200 amp meter main on the shop. Take 100 amps into the shop using a breaker, then when the house is built, come off the lugs and run a 200 amp feeder to the home. It's what I did at my own house, except the service is on a pole with the meter main provided by the Co-Op.

If the Co-Op insists on just setting a meter and not a meter main, then go into a 200 amp outdoor fused disconnect with double lugs on the load side or a 200 amp outdoor panel with feed through lugs. Take a 100 amp feeder into the shop and set a 100 amp main breaker panel, just make sure it's a run of 25 feet or less if using the disconnect. Then take a 200 amp feeder into the house.

 

[sberry]

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1048321&d=1599267370

 

[850xpeps]

Are you running gas furnace as well?

My home is 1876 sq ft. 18kw furnace and everything else is electric. I included an 8kw boiler in my load calc and think it came out to 189 amps. So I wanted a shop with possible heat. I know I could have gotten by with 200 amp. But instead went 400 with a metered ct. you can still run backup power to everything. Main thing will be cost. To me it wasn’t much extra because I wanted everything coming from side of shed. So disconnects would have been there. Only extra was the ctse as opposed to a 200 amp dual lug meter socket. No extra let kw/h used just a monthly service fee. 200 amp would have been $9 and I’m $18 because of the 400.

Get an electrician to do a load calc. But if you have gas, I’d say your probably fine with 200 amps.

 

[Shovelhead]

I would just install a 200 amp meter main on the shop. Take 100 amps into the shop using a breaker, then when the house is built, come off the lugs and run a 200 amp feeder to the home. It's what I did at my own house, except the service is on a pole with the meter main provided by the Co-Op.

If the Co-Op insists on just setting a meter and not a meter main, then go into a 200 amp outdoor fused disconnect with double lugs on the load side or a 200 amp outdoor panel with feed through lugs. Take a 100 amp feeder into the shop and set a 100 amp main breaker panel, just make sure it's a run of 25 feet or less if using the disconnect. Then take a 200 amp feeder into the house.

Thanks man. Well explained, I can pretty much understand it all.
The 25' for disconnect -- from fused disconnect to main panel in shop, right?
The shop panel will be located inside same wall / location as the service.
So should be good there.

 

[Shovelhead]

Are you running gas furnace as well? NO

But instead went 400 with a metered ct. Main thing will be cost.

I think the kwh rate is higher for metered CT's.
Commercial rate vs. residential.

 

[850xpeps]

I think the kwh rate is higher for metered CT's.

Commercial rate vs. residential.

That’s something to consider. It isn’t here.

 

[sparky 1971]

Thanks man. Well explained, I can pretty much understand it all.
The 25' for disconnect -- from fused disconnect to main panel in shop, right?
The shop panel will be located inside same wall / location as the service.
So should be good there.

Yes, less than 25' of wire length from the 200 amp fuses to the 100 amp main breaker. It would be more cost-effective to use an outdoor panel with feed through lugs. I imagine all the manufacturers make such a thing. I know SquareD makes one in the QO line. I can look up the part number when I get home tonight if you need.

 

[Shovelhead]

thanks Sparky. yes, if you have time, seeing the equipment yer talking to complete this job would be handy.

Co-op just finished building the line.
500' of primary to dead end pole with 25kva xfmr.
That and some additional right of way clearing was only $8500!!!

No tellin what they'll charge to run the UG service from xfmr to shop.

Co-op man suggested I run two separate services -- two meters.
That way if any of it burns up, it's theirs.

House will only be around 25' from shop. I think wiring service to shop and feed house from there like I'm asking about would be a lot less expensive. Don't know.
The guy I talked to was not the man who figures the cost of the services.

 

[kj_mustang]

My local power company had no issue with doing what you wanted. Two 200 amp disconnects, right one feeds 100 amp sub in the garage and a line to the house, the left one feeds the house.

 

[sberry]

The one I showed in that thread link was 200 feed thru HOM. They stock them regular at the box store.

It would be more cost-effective to use an outdoor panel with feed through lugs. I imagine all the manufacturers make such a thing. I know SquareD makes one in the QO line. I can look up the part number when I get home tonight if you need.

 

[sberry]

Load? --- two old people, <2000 sq ft house, all electric minus propane stove and water heater.

I can tell you right without doing a calc you wouldnt trip up a hundred.

 

[sberry]

I wired up a couple kitchen/tavern renovations. Its worth the experience to see how much **** can be put on 200. I know a couple guys ran welding business from 100 for decades and over the last 30 years have wired a couple dozen garages with 50 and 60 breakers,,,, NEVER had one call back about a trip up. A couple 3 or so of them were quite busy and had 5 hp comps.
I realize this is not a calc,, I understand it and somewhere it may have happened to someone, just never to me including a couple times I run a bunch of stuff full blast on temp 100.

 

[sparky 1971]

thanks Sparky. yes, if you have time, seeing the equipment yer talking to complete this job would be handy.

Co-op just finished building the line.
500' of primary to dead end pole with 25kva xfmr.
That and some additional right of way clearing was only $8500!!!

No tellin what they'll charge to run the UG service from xfmr to shop.

Co-op man suggested I run two separate services -- two meters.
That way if any of it burns up, it's theirs.

House will only be around 25' from shop. I think wiring service to shop and feed house from there like I'm asking about would be a lot less expensive. Don't know.
The guy I talked to was not the man who figures the cost of the services.

I read the original post too fast. When I saw Co-Op, I automatically assumed they take care of the meter setting. That may or may not be the case here.

Some PoCo's have a list of meter sockets that they will accept, so check with them before buying anything if you have to supply it.

The most common meter main used around my parts is a Milbank U5168-XTL-200-KK. It's about $275ish from Home Depot. The meter main is going to be the nicest looking option imo.

If it's just a meter socket they want or that's what they supply , a panel along the lines of a Square D QO1816M200FTRB should work. Those are around $150.00

With either of those, you can run a 100 amp circuit straight out the back of it, through the wall and into the shop panel. Then have the lugs available to run a 200 amp feeder out the bottom and to the house.

The 3R fused disconnect is another option. Square D D224NRB, but it's expensive. Approaching $300 without the fuses or double barreled lugs.

There are other manufactures that make similar equipment, maybe for more money, maybe for less. Check and see what's available in your area.

 

[sberry]

They switch QO for HOM in the part number. The one I just did get the shop panel from a breaker, a circuit for outdoor, one is going to be added for 30rv, one for a well which is going to leave 3, could go to house 100 or use feed thru. Leaves great local control and let's the outside feed the outside.

 

[Shovelhead]

I can tell you right without doing a calc you wouldnt trip up a hundred.

I bet yer probably right

 

[Shovelhead]

I really appreciate your effort to help Sparky.

Yeah the meter can is something I’m still not certain about.
My experience is the Company providing power provides their meter can.
I asked that question to the fella I talked to today at the Co-op and he said yes they provide the meter can.
I didn’t ask him if I was required to use their can.