Snap On stepped up their game. Milwaukee's turn!

[VtecGSR95]

So I work in a dealership.....and everyone knows we're always out to find a better option for less than the tool truck.

Currently, my "BIG" impact gun is the Milwaukee 1/2" drive (2767-20 I believe) impact, rated at 1400 lb-ft of nut busting tq. Yesterday I ran into a truck with lug nuts seized on it. I tried multiple times on these 4 lug nuts, switched to a short socket, new battery fresh off the charger, nothing.

Buddy comes over with the new snap on CT9075 1/2" drive brush-less unit. He uses my socket, and without a struggle, it pops ALL 4 nuts off with ease! To say I was shocked and impressed was an understatement. This tool is only rated at 1200 lb-ft of breakaway tq, yet it totally crushed my Milwaukee!

In case anyone is thinking it was an issue with my gun......a fellow co-worker tried with his Milwaukee (same model as mine), and his wouldn't budge it either.

Might be time for Milwaukee to step up their game!! I wish I would have shot a video......this is the type of real-world situations we face that the specs cant tell the whole story about a tool.

Either way, the Milwaukee is a great tool.....just the first time I witnessed it being outdone by another tool!

 

[sk farmer]

it doesn't matter, drills, impacts, power tools in general. there is no industry standard so all of those numbers are made up in some lab under "perfect simulations".

like another thread here in the last couple days. you don't need bigger 1/2 drive, you need 3/4 whether it is hand or impact powered.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Might be time for Milwaukee to step up their game!! I wish I would have shot a video......this is the type of real-world situations we face that the specs cant tell the whole story about a tool.
!

Primarily because the specs are complete nonsense the manufacturers make up.


I can tell you my m12 fuel ratchet sure as hell doesn't make 40 ft/lbs. My IR2235 sure as hell doesn't make 1300 (nut busting torque - biggest ******** number ever), or 900 (working torque). IMO the numbers are really only worth while comparing within a brand.

 

[Ton ton]

it doesn't matter, drills, impacts, power tools in general. there is no industry standard so all of those numbers are made up in some lab under "perfect simulations".

like another thread here in the last couple days. you don't need bigger 1/2 drive, you need 3/4 whether it is hand or impact powered.

I agree with the 3/4" idea.

 

[CGarage]

How about some Kroil or ATF on those seized lug nuts before going to Impact?????

 

[nafterclifen]

How about some Kroil or ATF on those seized lug nuts before going to Impact?????

He works in a dealership. No offense to the OP, but I'm pretty sure dealer techs would rather break and replace parts (on customer's dime) than use Kroil or ATF and have to sit and wait.

 

[Astro_Pneumatic_Tools]

Primarily because the specs are complete nonsense the manufacturers make up.

IMO the numbers are really only worth while comparing within a brand.

Ding ding ding

 

[CGarage]

He works in a dealership. No offense to the OP, but I'm pretty sure dealer techs would rather break and replace parts (on customer's dime) than use Kroil or ATF and have to sit and wait.

It does not take that long...a few minutes would have helped immensely.

 

[ArcReactorKC]

If I was a dealership tech there is now way I'm going to do any waiting when a more powerful tool can do the job right now.

 

[InsanePyro]

He works in a dealership. No offense to the OP, but I'm pretty sure dealer techs would rather break and replace parts (on customer's dime) than use Kroil or ATF and have to sit and wait.

You can thank flat rate for that

 

[Buckgnarly]

Wow, I'm not one to bash the bashers, but how the hell is an impact going to break studs while REMOVING lugs? IF they break coming off, they are suspect anyway after being overtorqued.

He would be doing the customer a favor by replacing the studs after they have been overtorqued.

 

[rlitman]

Primarily because the specs are complete nonsense the manufacturers make up.


I can tell you my m12 fuel ratchet sure as hell doesn't make 40 ft/lbs. My IR2235 sure as hell doesn't make 1300 (nut busting torque - biggest ******** number ever), or 900 (working torque). IMO the numbers are really only worth while comparing within a brand.

I'd say that the torque numbers are 75% marketing BS, but as you pointed out, they may at least be useful at comparing within a brand. They're sure as heck not reliable enough to distinguish something as close to call as the OP's comparison, but they do often have some grounding in reality.

Keep in mind that brands with reputations to protect will usually not participate as much in this number inflation. Also, older brands (generally the same ones as the ones with reputations) may already have older existing testing regimens for comparisons within their own lineup that don't give such inflated results as the testing regimens used by newer brands. If they lower the testing bar each year, then a new product that's potentially weaker than an existing one may be marketed as having higher performance, so once they've created their internal standards, they need to stick with them.

 

[InsanePyro]

Wow, I'm not one to bash the bashers, but how the hell is an impact going to break studs while REMOVING lugs?

I've done it by hand so I'm sure a impact can

 

[brandonsmash]

All of those numbers are complete fabrication. Look at vacuums for example: How do you figure you're getting 5.5 horsepower from a 15A, 120V socket?

1400 lb. ft., 1200 lb. ft., they're all marketing nonsense. Unfortunately there's really no good way to compare equivalents.

 

[CobraRed]

All of those numbers are complete fabrication. Look at vacuums for example: How do you figure you're getting 5.5 horsepower from a 15A, 120V socket?

1400 lb. ft., 1200 lb. ft., they're all marketing nonsense. Unfortunately there's really no good way to compare equivalents.

I have a friend who is working on a test rig for this exact purpose. Trying to build it on the cheap, to compare old school guns to new guns using the same test process on a machine that will show on a digital gauge in ft-lbs instead of some other gibberish everyone converts with math.

When he finishes it I'll post up if it looks interesting. I'm curious how far away from reality brands have gotten.

 

[alien]

I have a friend who is working on a test rig for this exact purpose. Trying to build it on the cheap, to compare old school guns to new guns using the same test process on a machine that will show on a digital gauge in ft-lbs instead of some other gibberish everyone converts with math.

When he finishes it I'll post up if it looks interesting. I'm curious how far away from reality brands have gotten.

That would be interesting. Would like to see the results.

 

[visionguru]

So I work in a dealership.....and everyone knows we're always out to find a better option for less than the tool truck.

Currently, my "BIG" impact gun is the Milwaukee 1/2" drive (2767-20 I believe) impact, rated at 1400 lb-ft of nut busting tq. Yesterday I ran into a truck with lug nuts seized on it. I tried multiple times on these 4 lug nuts, switched to a short socket, new battery fresh off the charger, nothing.

Buddy comes over with the new snap on CT9075 1/2" drive brush-less unit. He uses my socket, and without a struggle, it pops ALL 4 nuts off with ease! To say I was shocked and impressed was an understatement. This tool is only rated at 1200 lb-ft of breakaway tq, yet it totally crushed my Milwaukee!

In case anyone is thinking it was an issue with my gun......a fellow co-worker tried with his Milwaukee (same model as mine), and his wouldn't budge it either.

Might be time for Milwaukee to step up their game!! I wish I would have shot a video......this is the type of real-world situations we face that the specs cant tell the whole story about a tool.

Either way, the Milwaukee is a great tool.....just the first time I witnessed it being outdone by another tool!

IMHO, Ingersoll Rand makes better cordless impact than either Snap On or Milwaukee. My W7152 is specified to have 1,500 ft-lb breakaway torque. W7150 was great also, with 1,100ft-lb rate, it took out Honda crank pulley bolt like nothing.

 

[sk farmer]

IMHO, Ingersoll Rand makes better cordless impact than either Snap On or Milwaukee. My W7152 is specified to have 1,500 ft-lb breakaway torque. W7150 was great also, with 1,100ft-lb rate, it took out Honda crank pulley bolt like nothing.

are you really buying into the hype? i won't argue that you took out crank bolts, i believe you.

do you really believe that somehow the pixie dust has coaxed almost 1/3 more power out of an updated impact?

 

[2ndGearRubber]

How it should be done - Torque bolt to specified torque, if the gun can remove said bolt torqued to, say, 500 ft/lbs, then you go up to 600 until the gun fails to remove the fastener. If these guns made the power they actually claim, they'd snap anvils and never find any automotive bolt they couldn't twist the head off of.

Guns held by human hands, no cheater downforce setups to maximize force. 5 second maximum impacting time, limits on hose size, minimum length requirements, minimum temp requirements for the guns, no pre-oiling to help seal up the vanes, etc.





Back to the topic, I've considered the electric impacts many times. But with crappy output from my non-fuel 3/8 impact (m12) I'm worried about going M18 and incurring the associated costs of a new platform. The snap on cordless is just way to expensive IMO, but I'm cheap. My air powered gun does pretty good, vs. the $1000 1/2 drive brushless snap on.

https://shop.snapon.com/product/Bru...less-Cordless-Impact-Wrench-(Hi-Viz)/CT9075HV

More often than not, if I can't move something with the 2235, more twisting force would just break the fastener, not unscrew it. Although in the above example, it's best to just snap the studs off and replace.


Also worth considering: Some products seem to have more twist, and less impacting. I find this true comparing the high output 1/2 impacts to electric models. The electrics don't seem to have properly functioning hammers, but man do they put some twist on the fastener.

 

[Astro_Pneumatic_Tools]

How it should be done - Torque bolt to specified torque, if the gun can remove said bolt torqued to, say, 500 ft/lbs, then you go up to 600 until the gun fails to remove the fastener. If these guns made the power they actually claim, they'd snap anvils and never find any automotive bolt they couldn't twist the head off of.

Guns held by human hands, no cheater downforce setups to maximize force. 5 second maximum impacting time, limits on hose size, minimum length requirements, minimum temp requirements for the guns, no pre-oiling to help seal up the vanes, etc.

This doesn't work. Loosening a bolt that's 3/4-10 thread vs loosening a bolt that's 3/4-16 thread takes different power, bolt with zinc coating or oxide coating or cadmium coating takes different power, dry threads vs wax vs grease and type takes different power, bolt flange/head size, surface DA and hardness effects friction tremendously as well and that's all before you change different thread diameters. A 1.25" thread set to the same torque takes a completely different level of power to remove.

I've had a factory send me a video of an impact we tested to be at 395ft-lbs Max remove a nut on a custom rig with a 24mm fine thread and nut, the nut had a wide flat mirror polish bottom surface against a similarly polished mating surface with oil on it. This hardware was presumably also extremely hardened. It removed the nut set to 950ft-lbs. It's LaLaLAND pie in the sky stuff.

There are accepted practices, just not very eye grabbing ones so brands have chosen to only bury them in the specs and no way to ensure they are all doing it the same way unless you have them all in a room together.

If these guns made the power they actually claim, they'd snap anvils

Correct

 

[TRWham]

My son stripped the threads right off a 1/2-20 wheel stud with a Milwaukee 2763-20 even after I told him it was a left hand thread. I'd really hate to let him loose with an even stronger tool.

 

[ducksface]

like another thread here in the last couple days. you don't need bigger 1/2 drive, you need 3/4 whether it is hand or impact powered.

Or a Torque multiplier.
I'm often, more than not, amazed about who doesn't know about a damn simple torque multiplier. It's the tool on my wall that gets the most
'whazdat?'s.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

You'd need an industry standard bolt, plating, pitch, etc as well.

Standard temp within the room, feed air, etc. It goes on and on. You'd basically need to run it like a science fair experiment, and have an industry board to work for compliance.

 

[ducksface]

Since we're talking about testing, and since compressors are tested with no intake or exhaust pipe at ambient on the INTAKE side(so they can make the biggest lie possible without lawsuit)
Do we
Think maybe impacts are tested at full spin, Half inch hose, and then brake stalled?
They don't care if they lose a hammer at testing.

I'm thinking without verifying, that testing is by immediate braking at max rpm.

No one doubts why they're doubted.
It just might be interesting to see what the test is
Epa style
Compressor style
HP style

 

[Lucid Moments]

Or a Torque multiplier.
I'm often, more than not, amazed about who doesn't know about a damn simple torque multiplier. It's the tool on my wall that gets the most
'whazdat?'s.

I am aware that they exist, but have never seen one in person and certainly never used one.

 

[Mr_B]

In a shop, pick up the damn airline ....
I ain't got time or money waste on battery tools on big stuff, when it proper tight air impact is right

 

[ducksface]

I am aware that they exist, but have never seen one in person and certainly never used one.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00G3NA6C0/ref=ppx_yo_mob_b_inactive_ship_o0_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Really Stout. Needs a grease zerk if you're going to use more than 1,000 times in 100 years.

I ordered a one inch to half inch adapter for it so regular car/truck lug sockets can be used(I have to consider I won't be the only person using it. I'm pretty helpful) and built a one inch to half inch female/female so a 18v ryobi can be used instead of the crank handle(no reason for female/female and ryobi. Just did it because I could).

 

[Astro_Pneumatic_Tools]

You'd need an industry standard bolt, plating, pitch, etc as well.

Standard temp within the room, feed air, etc. It goes on and on. You'd basically need to run it like a science fair experiment, and have an industry board to work for compliance.

The thing is, this process already exists in the form of working (FWD) and max torque - you're slowly recreating it with each standardization. Modern companies have just skipped feeling like they need to perform it or show it, while many brands that have been around forever drop one of these off the specs list and bury the other in favor of putting what is flashy in the title and on the box to keep up with the rest of the crowd.

 

[Formula]

It does not take that long...a few minutes would have helped immensely.

More than likely it had some sort of chrome acorn style lugnut with none of the threads exposed. You can spray all you want but it’s not going to penetrate where it’s all frozen up. Plus, now you’re going to make a mess all over the customers wheel spraying that stuff. Nobody’s got time for that.

 

[VtecGSR95]

Good morning all!

Didn't mean for this to turn into an argument about specs or which steps I should've taken to remove the bolt, simply sharing a real-world observations, as we don't normally get to see this in many you tube videos.

While I enjoy researching tools and find out the best bang for the buck, best deals, etc., I certainly appreciate seeing the tool do its job first hand, and this gives me an opportunity to make an informed decision about which tool fits my needs and budget. BTW, I have an old Cornwell box at work.....and Masterforce at home. I have both boxes full of all brands of tools from harbor freight, craftsman, snap on, matco, mac, cornwell, random amazon no name tools, etc. I am all about trying tools out and finding out what works best. I have also scored MANY Snap On tools on ebay for less than half of new, which is likely what I'd do if I wanted this new CT9075!

 

[VtecGSR95]

More than likely it had some sort of chrome acorn style lugnut with none of the threads exposed. You can spray all you want but it’s not going to penetrate where it’s all frozen up. Plus, now you’re going to make a mess all over the customers wheel spraying that stuff. Nobody’s got time for that.

Agreed......but you know us "dealer tech's" are all idiots who don't know how to use our tools! LOL!

 

[American Locomotive]

The problem with impact wrenches is the torque they generate is proportional to how rigid the assembly is. They deliver an "impulse" of energy. The shorter the impulse, the higher the peak power, and more torque that is generated.

Basically what it means is the more springy something is, the less torque will be developed. Every item made out of steel has a spring constant, even if it doesn't "seem" to have any spring at all. If you hook an impact up to a coil spring, it will not generate any torque at all - it might even spin backwards compared to the direction you have it driving as the energy gets returned to the anvil. This also means that the smaller your bolt/nut is, the less peak torque will be developed because smaller bolts/nuts will inherently be less rigid.

They might say something like:
- "peak torque", which may be tested with the anvil directly clamped in an extremely heavy, rigid piece of steel attached to some kind of load cell. Not realistic at all.
- "Nut busting" torque is supposed mean that it can theoretically loosen a bolt/nut torqued to that particular value. But once again, rigidity matters here. A 3/4" bolt tightened to 400 ft-lbs is going to have a much different rigidity than a 1.5" bolt torqued to 400 ft-lbs.
- "Working Torque" generally means that the impact is able to continuously drive a fastener that is turning, but turning "tightly" at that particular torque level. Same thing though: what size fastener, what is it "stuck" in, what is the fastener made out of?

But none of these labels have any real formal definition, and no real unified test method associated with each one. Until the SAE or some other 3rd party testing company releases a standard "impact testing method", the numbers on impact wrenches are basically meaningless. They *MIGHT* be useful for comparing tools within a specific brand, but that's assuming a brand tests all their tools the same way.

 

[FSrepair&fabrication]

My personal unscientific method for judging the power of an impact is the size of the hammers. The milwaukee claims more torque than most pneumatic 3/4 drive guns yet the hammers in some of those guns weigh more than the entire milwaukee gun. Bigger hammers hit slower but harder. Its like comparing the big nasty air hammer to your standard IR from tractor supplly, theres no spec measuring the output but everyone knows it hits harder because the guts are significantly larger.

 

[Lassen Forge]

When I went to get a battery impact (because my air supply is ****), I spent a Sunday morning on youtube watching people USE the things... and comparing them. Ended up with the Dewalt 1/2", and it does everything I've asked of it.

Or a Torque multiplier.
I'm often, more than not, amazed about who doesn't know about a damn simple torque multiplier. It's the tool on my wall that gets the most 'whazdat?'s.

And probably a fair amount of use. I know I use the heck out of mine.

I am aware that they exist, but have never seen one in person and certainly never used one.

Seriously worth their weight in 30 wt. Had a rear axle nut stuck, a friend loaned me his, and I was a convert.

 

[matt_i]

The problem with impact wrenches is the torque they generate is proportional to how rigid the assembly is. They deliver an "impulse" of energy. The shorter the impulse, the higher the peak power, and more torque that is generated.

Basically what it means is the more springy something is, the less torque will be developed. Every item made out of steel has a spring constant, even if it doesn't "seem" to have any spring at all. If you hook an impact up to a coil spring, it will not generate any torque at all - it might even spin backwards compared to the direction you have it driving as the energy gets returned to the anvil. This also means that the smaller your bolt/nut is, the less peak torque will be developed because smaller bolts/nuts will inherently be less rigid.

They might say something like:
- "peak torque", which may be tested with the anvil directly clamped in an extremely heavy, rigid piece of steel attached to some kind of load cell. Not realistic at all.
- "Nut busting" torque is supposed mean that it can theoretically loosen a bolt/nut torqued to that particular value. But once again, rigidity matters here. A 3/4" bolt tightened to 400 ft-lbs is going to have a much different rigidity than a 1.5" bolt torqued to 400 ft-lbs.
- "Working Torque" generally means that the impact is able to continuously drive a fastener that is turning, but turning "tightly" at that particular torque level. Same thing though: what size fastener, what is it "stuck" in, what is the fastener made out of?

But none of these labels have any real formal definition, and no real unified test method associated with each one. Until the SAE or some other 3rd party testing company releases a standard "impact testing method", the numbers on impact wrenches are basically meaningless. They *MIGHT* be useful for comparing tools within a specific brand, but that's assuming a brand tests all their tools the same way.

Agree: "how sharp is the needle?" meaning the height of the torque impulse spike which shows up on some form of instrumentation.

 

[Skin]

Thing is the Snap-on impact is about $1000 for the kit. I think you can get the Milwaukee for around $300-$350 these days. The Milwaukee also has 3 more years on the warranty. Not to mention far more tools in the line and a much better battery selection. I dont think its worth it. Especially given the track record of Snap-on 18V line reliability which is generally garbage. My 1/2" developed a dead spot in the trigger as did my 3/8" and a second 3/8" the light lasted about half a dozen uses before it went out completely. Its pretty laughable given the price tag.

Personally all the 1/2" guns are so cumbersome that if i'm working next to a hose I'll stick with pneumatic for that particular tool.

 

[kudakev615]

Personally all the 1/2" guns are so cumbersome that if i'm working next to a hose I'll stick with pneumatic for that particular tool.

i agree with this. i do own the SO 1/2 electric impact but i rarely ever use it and honestly regret buying it. 90% of the time i am using my astro nano 1/2 for everything from tire removal to suspension work. if its too weak then i grab my mg725

 

[bushmechanic]

Wow, I'm not one to bash the bashers, but how the hell is an impact going to break studs while REMOVING lugs? IF they break coming off, they are suspect anyway after being overtorqued.

He would be doing the customer a favor by replacing the studs after they have been overtorqued.

I've snapped many by hand like another poster mentioned; but that doesn't always mean they were toast.

It can very well mean I just should have hit it with penetrating oil and heat first; but if that's required it's probably a good idea to replace them anyway.

The actual physical strength required to break a new stud/bolt/screw of that size is minimal on the end of even a long ratchet; let alone a breaker bar. If the head's in good shape... You can wring something off easily.

It doesn't take much of a twist before it hardens up and becomes prone to snapping; but it can actually be easier to break one by hand than it is with an impact wrench.

 

[American Locomotive]

It has to do with the nature of how impacts work that makes it very difficult for them to snap wheel studs when removing nuts. When you snap a stud trying to remove a lug nut, it's because you're winding the steel up straight through it's elastic zone (where it behaves like a spring), through it's plastic deformation zone (where the steel permanently changes shape or "bends") and into the rupture zone where it all tears apart.

It's easy to do with a ratchet because you can just keep applying force and winding the steel up. It's far harder to do that with an impact, because you don't get any "wind up". After every hammer blow, the stud will reset back to the position it was in before and unwind. Your impact needs to be grunty enough to send the stud into the plastic deformation zone in a single hammer blow, which is extremely difficult on a large, high-strength piece of steel like a wheel stud.

Breaking a stud while TIGHTENING a lug on an impact is pretty easy, because you're just breaking the stud with pure tension - stretching it until it pops. You're getting the "wind up" when you tighten.

 

[M6erfan]

It has to do with the nature of how impacts work that makes it very difficult for them to snap wheel studs when removing nuts. When you snap a stud trying to remove a lug nut, it's because you're winding the steel up straight through it's elastic zone (where it behaves like a spring), through it's plastic deformation zone (where the steel permanently changes shape or "bends") and into the rupture zone where it all tears apart.

It's easy to do with a ratchet because you can just keep applying force and winding the steel up. It's far harder to do that with an impact, because you don't get any "wind up". After every hammer blow, the stud will reset back to the position it was in before and unwind. Your impact needs to be grunty enough to send the stud into the plastic deformation zone in a single hammer blow, which is extremely difficult on a large, high-strength piece of steel like a wheel stud.

Breaking a stud while TIGHTENING a lug on an impact is pretty easy, because you're just breaking the stud with pure tension - stretching it until it pops. You're getting the "wind up" when you tighten.

I learned this fact the hard way some years ago. When I disassemble a bike I often use an impact. For reassembly the impact stays on the shelf and it's done by hand.

For auto/truck wheels, I may cheat and use an impact to zip the nuts on, but just until they kiss the wheel. Then finish by hand.