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Porch Footer sanity check

HoosierBuddy

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May 9, 2006
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Southern Indiana
Hey guys,

25 years ago I built a little back porch off our kitchen with 3 stairs down to the drive way. Just a 4 X 4 landing with three steps built out of treated lumber.

To anchor it, I just dug 5 post holes and set treated 4X4's in a bags of sack-crete.

OK. It was showing it's age and looking bad and I had an idea for an upgrade, so I clipped it off at the posts, strapped the whole thing to the loader on my tractor, hauled it to the backyard, and had a ball using the loader to crunch it into a zillion bits.

So...the big plan is to replace this with a steel and precast concrete structure. The landing is still 4' X 4'. The treads are precast 12" X 48". All in it's going to weigh right at 1 ton with no load on it, including steel and concrete.

It needs a footer to hold it up and tie it down to.

My plan was to cut out a 4' X 7' section of the asphalt that was under the old porch and replace it with a concrete footer and slab (monolithic pour) right up to the same level as the driveway. The project started well enough....I used a concrete saw with an asphalt blade and neatly cut out the section, then I got in there and removed all the asphalt.

What I've run into though is my old sack-creted post holes, are still in my dig zone along with some pre-me sandstone and limestone blocks from the historic stairs I replaced 25 years ago (the house is 102 years old).

I can get all of that out of there, but what I pictured as a neat excavation with 24" deep footers along the sides and a 5" deep section in the middle is just going to turn into a great big messy hole by the time I get all of the old junk out of there.

So...now I'm thinking about just digging the whole thing down 24" and pour it full to the brim. Honestly, it only increases my pour by 1/2 yard, and I'm already going to be paying a penalty for a small load.

The sanity check is this....am I nuts for pouring 4 tons of concrete to put in 3 steps and a 4 X 4 landing? Honestly...I feel like maybe I am.

Phil
 
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csp

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Franktown, CO
Dig out the mess and form up the size you need it to be. Strip forms and backfill the remainder of the hole.
 

Bert_

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NW Iowa
Dig out the mess and form up the size you need it to be. Strip forms and backfill the remainder of the hole.

That sounds nice and all but the cost of that is more than the extra concrete.

That said I have precast steps at the front of my house, 4 steps no landing. The front edge sits on a sidewalk and the back is simply a couple concrete blocks buried in the dirt
 
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HoosierBuddy

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Well...I appreciate the feedback.

Bert...I'm not using one of those precast, set in place deals. I bought a precast landing and precast treads with weld plates in them. I'll be building the frame out of 4" square steel tubing so the landing and treads will kind of "float". The 4" steel frame's vertical supports will have foot plates on the ends that will be drilled and tied into the footer with wedge anchors.

So...it has to have a footer.

I realize I made my job 50 times harder by not just buying a precast concrete unit and setting it in.

csp....I like what you're saying and that is definitely an option. A quick calc shows that would cut the amount of concrete by 50%...but it really won't save me any money at all because of the penalty set up they charge kind of means anything up to about 3 yards costs $400. Your method would get me down to 1 yard which in theory I could mix up myself with sack-crete....but that's $405 in sack-crete (60 bags at $6.74 per bag with tax).

I'll get the hole dug this weekend and cleaned out and take another look.

If it's all the same cost...is there any reason NOT to pour the whole thing like I mentioned in my earlier post?

Money doesn't grow on trees, but I'm not super concerned about the cost here. I have tried for 2 years to get a contractor to do this job for me...by building formed on site concrete set of stairs. (4 different ones agreed to do it and then never showed up)....which would have cost much more than what I'm going to end up with in a DIY project. BTW....I switched the design to precast treads and landing with welded steel frame once I decided to DIY....because with zero concrete experience I thought forming, pouring, and finishing the set I originally planned was outside of my skill set.

If you want to take a look at my idea, the drawing I put together is attached.

Phil
 

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Bert_

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NW Iowa
Yeah, the additional cost would probably bust most peoples budgets on that one. :rolleyes:

Why spend more money for forms and compacting backfill when it's not better? You could throw some dollar bills in the hole if it makes you feel better...

The only downside i can see is if you ever want to remove that big chunk of concrete
 
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coldh2o

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If it's all the same cost...is there any reason NOT to pour the whole thing like I mentioned in my earlier post?
Phil

Classic GJ. Lots of opinions and alternate solutions, nobody can just RTFQ.

No problem pouring the whole thing, as long as you have a competent undisturbed subgrade that isn't going to settle. I wouldn't be concerned about "what if it ever has to be removed in the future?" Why would it?
 

csp

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Why spend more money for forms and compacting backfill when it's not better? You could throw some dollar bills in the hole if it makes you feel better...

Maybe in your world there is a cost associated with forms and compacting. In mine those things are free, other than my time and I don't bill myself time for my own projects. Not sure why you feel the need to keep commenting on the cost with very little detail to actually know what the costs might be, what materials the OP has on hand for forms, and the fact that you have zero skin in the game. This job isn't yours or mine, and the OP took my suggestion into consideration and weighed out his own pros and cons with his intimate knowledge of the details.

Classic GJ. Lots of opinions and alternate solutions, nobody can just RTFQ.

Except the question you chose to quote wasn't what was originally asked.
 
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HoosierBuddy

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Again...I appreciate everyone's input.

I dug the hole out completely over the weekend. I was able to pretty much follow my original plan digging the perimeter of the excavation 26 to 28 inches deep, roughly 8 to 10 inches wide and leave the center of the excavation only 6 to 8 inches below the level of the driveway.

I took several measurements, averaged them and estimate it will take 2.01 cubic yards to fill the hole to the brim with fiber reinforced concrete. The local concrete plant is less than a mile from my house. They are going to work me in tomorrow.

I have several 2X2 stakes in the hole to show me level.

Tonight I'm going to put polyethylene expansion joint around the perimeter of the hole, against the house foundation and the existing blacktop. I'm planning on just working the concrete flat with a 2X4. I totally don't know what I'm doing here....but all of this will end up having a set of stairs and landing installed on top of it once I get to that step...so it just needs to be relatively flat and I'll be golden. The surface finish is not super critical.

Phil
 

firebirdparts

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Kingsport, TN
Classic GJ. Lots of opinions and alternate solutions, nobody can just RTFQ.

No problem pouring the whole thing, as long as you have a competent undisturbed subgrade that isn't going to settle. I wouldn't be concerned about "what if it ever has to be removed in the future?" Why would it?

This x 100,000,000. Just pour whatever you want. When you need to remove it someday, you’ll think of an alternative or it’ll be a sad day.
 
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HoosierBuddy

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Relatively flat is really not what you want. There should be a slope away from the house foundation to avoid any drainage issues.

Yes.

The driveway section I removed had about 1" slope before I removed it (over 7 feet. I set my stakes to give me the same slope.

Phil
 
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HoosierBuddy

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Southern Indiana
It’s poured. Just over 2 yards. I’ve got it right where I want it...and now it’s raining on it. Sigh. I grabbed a tarp and sawhorses and built it a cozy little tent. I’m hoping the wind stays calm. It’s protected by the house on one side and the garage one one side...so maybe it will be OK.
 
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