why SO is so freaking expensive

[toddmorr]

was talking with a guy in my neighborhood the other day, he might even be on GJ. Anyway, he bought a SO scanner at a pawnshop a while back. Plugged in to a late model Lexus and it promptly fried the computer running the power seats. Yeah, bricked it. So he calls SO and they, no questions asked, picked up the $3500 bill at the dealer to get the computer replaced, and gave the guy a free update. SO was well aware of the issue, implying this kind of treatment wasn't ground breaking.

i guess SO knows it's business, but if I were a stockholder that would kind of piss me off.

 

[username2]

Jeesh. The most shocking thing to me is that a computer that runs power seats costs $3500. or that people need power seats.

 

[isb cornbinder]

I am a retired mechanic. SnapOn is service. The tools are the among the best I have ever used. I called the SnapOn guy about a socket I needed. He had it on his truck and drove it by the house after stopping at Starbucks for a coffee for each of us. After 15 years of retirement, the SnapOn guy remembered how I take my coffee.
I posted two pictures of old SnapOn ratchets. They still work really well after 50 plus years of making money.

 

[bczygan]

Jeesh. The most shocking thing to me is that a computer that runs power seats costs $3500. or that people need power seats.

Wake up!

You may have a half dozen modules like that!

Bill

 

[sberry]

There was a guy on a welding forum said,,, why should I only sell one and make 5$ when I could lower the price and make 10 and make 50 cents each?
Second,,,the dealer of a tractor tells me his has better trade in value. So he says I should spend 10 more today so I can get 5 more back 10 years from now.
How much it cost Snap to make that scanner, sure they give him a free update, duh. They glad to warrant anything the customer bought at 10X the cost.

 

[username2]

Wake up!

You may have a half dozen modules like that!

Bill

I would if I had a late-model car.

What in the heck is in one of those modules? If it's just a microcontroller with some proprietary board connections and form factor (plus software), that's just insane.

I think I remember reading horror stories on Cadillac XLR super-special computer boards that run the convertible top. It definitely cured me from wanting one (well, that and the Northstar).

 

[Wrench97]

Somehow I doubt Snap On picked up the tab for a pawn shop scanner used by a amatuer.
There is no way just hooking it up to read data across the com lines smoked a good module.

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

Proto is 1/3 the cost of Snap-On. A number will say Proto is the better of the two.

 

[qqzj]

If SO is half decent, it should have a recall to replace the scanners and pay punitive damage for the trouble they cause. I guess fans are blind.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[MWEric]

Proto is 1/3 the cost of Snap-On. A number will say Proto is the better of the two.

Unfortunately a much larger number who shop at Harbor Freight would say what is Proto?

 

[toddmorr]

How much it cost Snap to make that scanner, sure they give him a free update, duh. They glad to warrant anything the customer bought at 10X the cost.

well it's one thing to warranty the scanner, another entirely to take liability for other costs, especially when the customer wasn't even on maintenance, meaning getting updates.

years ago I worked for IBM. If you weren't on their maintenance program for their machines, all bets were off. heck, even if you were, they weren't liable for other damages.

 

[toddmorr]

Somehow I doubt Snap On picked up the tab for a pawn shop scanner used by a amatuer.
There is no way just hooking it up to read data across the com lines smoked a good module.

sure it's possible he was fibbing, but he was driving a Lexus GS loaner car when we were chatting. and the scanner was likely bi-directional and he could have tried something that caused the issue...entirely possible either way

 

[JimH]

sure it's possible he was fibbing, but he was driving a Lexus GS loaner car when we were chatting. and the scanner was likely bi-directional and he could have tried something that caused the issue...entirely possible either way

The whole story sounds awfully sketchy to me. You could replace a metric **** ton of modules for $3500. Seat modules are not usually very complicated, or expensive. Bricking a module with just a scan tool doesn’t even sound possible.

I could be wrong, it may be a known issue, but it doesn’t really pass the smell test for me.

 

[username2]

The whole story sounds awfully sketchy to me. You could replace a metric **** ton of modules for $3500. Seat modules are not usually very complicated, or expensive. Bricking a module with just a scan tool doesn’t even sound possible.

I could be wrong, it may be a known issue, but it doesn’t really pass the smell test for me.

Would it be something like this?

https://parts.lexus.com/p/Lexus__ES...er--Position-Control/73246383/8971006030.html

$775

I'd love to see the BOM on this thing.

No doubt any sane person uses a wrecking yard.

 

[Wrench97]

Would it be something like this?

https://parts.lexus.com/p/Lexus__ES...er--Position-Control/73246383/8971006030.html

$775

I'd love to see the BOM on this thing.

Problem you are only controlling the module through it's own interface the tool it self does not supply voltage or ground only communication data through the data lines, the tool does not create functions to use it reports what is available on the module. So even if you ran a test it's up to the module to control the variables. If you bought the tool used and did not register it with Snap On they won't do anything with it, the software is out of date and you have not paid for all the updates and updated it it's on you.

 

[M635_Guy]

SO is expensive for a lot of reasons. They make high-quality tools in (relatively) small numbers. The core hand-tools and most of their boxes/etc. are made in the USA, so they're paying first-world wages/benefits. They have a channel that is mainly indirect through franchisees who have to buy expensive custom trucks, spend a lot of money on fuel (and probably inventory) and feed their families. And it's a service model as much as the products themselves. There's a lot of multiples in that business model.

I love the few pieces I have. Although they were all bought used/etc., they're still brutally expensive, even for their quality. There's no small premium in their brand, too. Their box prices are almost predatory. I've never heard if they charge interest on their payment plans, but it should be 0% if the box is $14K to begin with.

But whatever - there are tons of things that can't be rationally justified for the money.

 

[toddmorr]

think he said the car that got zapped was a GS460.
keep in mind Rockville Lexus is famous for it's pricing,,,they charge $260 for a regular alignment.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

Wake up!

You may have a half dozen modules like that!

Bill

My 2004 CRV that I bought a few years ago was the first vehicle I got with power windows and locks!

 

[tube_guy]

Jeesh. The most shocking thing to me is that a computer that runs power seats costs $3500. or that people need power seats.

Ahhhh. Makes me feel better to know that there are still people out there that think like I do.

 

[cherrybomb]

Unfortunately a much larger number who shop at Harbor Freight would say what is Proto?

After buying and using Proto and or Snapon,realize what quality is,forget the hf.as a bad memory.Quality does cost a bit more.

 

[Sycan]

Somehow I doubt Snap On picked up the tab for a pawn shop scanner used by a amatuer.
There is no way just hooking it up to read data across the com lines smoked a good module.

But what if it was his cousin's uncles neighbor who knows a guy that once heard about a guy that actually knew that guy??

 

[FunkyYota]

Supply and demand my guy. If people don’t buy it. It won’t be expensive.

I only own a few snap on tools and they’re some of the best tools I own. Probably besides my lie Nielsen wood working tools. You’re definitely getting into diminishing returns with their products, but they’re really nice to use.

 

[ChevyEFI]

I <3 Econ 101 on GJ.

 

[Ralf11]

I got 2 questions:

1. Is SnapOn relatively more expensive now than it used to be? It seems like there is a flood of perfectly good low cost ratchets now compared to say the 1970s....

2. Is a Snap On expensive compared to say Nepros - say we compare ratchets w/ w/o flex in popular sizes? Snap On definitely has more handle shapes, like the crank shaped flex handles...

 

[nicks78camaro]

Story sounds like BS

 

[vssjim]

Story sounds like BS

I second this statement and I work everyday in the industry and have never seen or heard of anything like this being real. A second hand used tool used to supposedly burn up a module that it can't and then pay out some unbelievable amount of money to a car dealer. Also the dealer uses in house scan tools on their cars and doesn't by from Snap on other than the mechanics personal stuff which they don't care about No way. Going farther I have seen scan tools in use since the early eighties and never seen them damage one thing ever. Also never seeing Snap On pay out for anything other than shipping when you sent in tool when you had no dealer and had to send them back for replacements and you better have receipts.

 

[justanengineer]

Somehow I doubt Snap On picked up the tab for a pawn shop scanner used by a amatuer.
There is no way just hooking it up to read data across the com lines smoked a good module.

The $3500 bill is the only aspect I'd question, but then again some shops are a bit unethical and its a luxury car so maybe not. Unfortunately bricking modules happens occasionally thanks to folks who don't know the difference between a flash and a scan and consequently do dumb **** with a good tool. OE service engineers can occasionally unlock them but not always. The other important bit to these stories is personality. Some customers could sell ice cream to Eskimos and get away with murder, others are lucky to get duly owed warranty work.

 

[M6erfan]

... The other important bit to these stories is personality. Some customers could sell ice cream to Eskimos and get away with murder, others are lucky to get duly owed warranty work.

^^^ Ain't that the truth!

 

[joel63]

After buying and using Proto and or Snapon,realize what quality is,forget the hf.as a bad memory.Quality does cost a bit more.

" There is a difference"

 

[JimH]

The $3500 bill is the only aspect I'd question, but then again some shops are a bit unethical and its a luxury car so maybe not. Unfortunately bricking modules happens occasionally thanks to folks who don't know the difference between a flash and a scan and consequently do dumb **** with a good tool. OE service engineers can occasionally unlock them but not always. The other important bit to these stories is personality. Some customers could sell ice cream to Eskimos and get away with murder, others are lucky to get duly owed warranty work.

In order to flash a module, he would need access to factory software. The scan tool becomes a pass thru communication device at that point. The scan tool would normally just communicate with all the modules of the data line, and possibly do some setup configurations, but not actually load any software that was from snap on.

Frankly the only part of the story that I believe, is the guy bought a scan tool at a pawnshop, and even that's suspect now in my eyes.

 

[Robert Haas]

one time,

in band camp.........

 

[Dustball]

Somehow I doubt Snap On picked up the tab for a pawn shop scanner used by a amatuer.
There is no way just hooking it up to read data across the com lines smoked a good module.

Sounds like this-

https://diag.net/msg/m1cgjxxvnwfho964ndt02zkkd8

By now I have a pretty good idea what is going on so I called my local Snap-On rep and asked if he had heard of this. He said no but would check around. He had checked with another rep who did not know anything about it either so I called tech support. I explained what I had found over a 3-month span and he addmitted that they were aware of a problem. He had even went as far as telling me that the problem has been fixed as of 18.4 software version. He explained that somehow the scan tool was corrupting the OCS module only when you do a "scan all modules" then " clear all faults". He went on to say that the fix in 18.4 was just a band-aid of sorts as it just skips the OCS module when you select " clear all faults". It appears the problem is software level related and not scan tool related. Basically anything with 18.2 and older you dont want to "clear all faults". I dont know the exact years of vehicles affected but I know that I have personally witnessed it on 09, 10, and 2011 model year Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

 

[carterbeauford]

I buy their stuff as a homeowner who likes quality tools and I'm pissed they don't have free shipping anymore. I used to get their diamond bits one at a time as needed.

 

[engineer2]

why should I only sell one and make 5$ when I could lower the price and make 10 and make 50 cents each?

Because filling one order it a lot less work than filling 10 orders. I know a few businesses that operate on this principle.

My employer used to make a few accessory items for Snap On a long time ago. One part had a SO list price about 4x what we sold it to them for. No idea what the street price was and no idea how many they replaced for free. They never sent any back for warranty.

 

[zendriver]

I had to warranty a socket once with them, the one and only time in 40 years.

Lady lady on the phone work me over like a police detective, would be surprised if they had me hooked up to some online Lie detector.

I even told her “sorry I couldn’t grab the receipt after 32 years!” They did finally send me a new one.

It’s good they take care of the expensive pawnshop purchases.

 

[Ralf11]

I'm surprised.

I got a free repair kit sent out for a ratchet a few weeks ago. The friendly lady asked me if I bought it off a tool truck here. I told I didn't know and listed a bunch of cities I've worked in then said I could have got it off of ebay too. She said "oh don't worry, we'll ship it right out." And they did.

 

[dutchgray]

They charge as much for their tools as they can get away with and still sell them, no different to any other tool company. The level of service provided and the warranty obviously factor into the high price asked and received from the customer.

Its just good business.

 

[richfinn]

I got 2 questions:

1. Is SnapOn relatively more expensive now than it used to be? It seems like there is a flood of perfectly good low cost ratchets now compared to say the 1970s....

2. Is a Snap On expensive compared to say Nepros - say we compare ratchets w/ w/o flex in popular sizes? Snap On definitely has more handle shapes, like the crank shaped flex handles...

In the UK It the prices have definately risen comparatively since the 90s

I used to happlly pay double the price for Snap-On quality against other brands!!!

Now it's triple or quadruple the price and the quality advantage is more marginal as other decent brands have emerged (I'm thinking Ko-Ken/Vessel/Autel and the European brands like Knipex/Stahlwille etc)

Some stuff Snap-On makes is absolutely the best, but many of us are quite happy with a 90% tool for 50% money (or less)

Nepros are a very "Niche Brand", Most professional mechanics will not even be aware of!!!

"Most of us are happy with a Porsche, some guys have to have the Bugatti"

 

[theoldwizard1]

Would it be something like this?

https://parts.lexus.com/p/Lexus__ES...er--Position-Control/73246383/8971006030.html

$775

I'd love to see the BOM on this thing.

I used to be in that industry.

The BOM is probably less than $100. Of course that does not include in of the software development costs.

40 years ago, the absolute cheap automotive electronic module you could build was about $20. $5 for the housing (metal for heat dissipation), $5 for a bare 2 sided circuit board (most now a days are 4 or 6 layer) and $10 for the male and female halves of the connector.

The government has added many requirements that have driven the cost of PCM through the roof. Large quantities of memory to store past DTC, present DTC and potential future DTC. Special non-volatile memory. Even with multiple cores and floating point, the actual CPU is a very small portion of the silicon inside of a PCM. RAM and Flash make up well over 80% of the silicon.

 

[M635_Guy]

The BOM is probably less than $100. Of course that does not include in of the software development costs.

Or any number of other things...

People think they know what the price of something should be because they think they know what it cost to make it.