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Who makes best Ethernet surge protecter?

reader2580

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Who makes the best Ethernet surge protector? I ran two Ethernet cables out to my solar ground mount and need to protect them from surges. (Yes, fiber would have been better, but no real way to power fiber transceivers.)

I don't know if APC is good or not. Sometimes brand names are not always the best.

What is the best way to hook surge protectors up to ground? The surge protectors will be inside my house.
 
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reader2580

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Is Tupavco actually a good product? I have been looking at their DIN rail mounted surge protectors. I have a small enclosure out there with a DIN rail in it. I have DIN mounted Ethernet jacks already.
 

dls

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Ethernet does not really require surge protection - it is galvanically isolated at both ends of ethernet connection - if you open up your ethernet device, you'll see ethernet transformers on PCBs right next to RJ-45s. If you are trying to run the connection outdoors and worried about lightning strikes, ethernet is the wrong product to use. You should run fiber instead and use either ethernet-to-fiber media converters, or fiber SFPs if your devices support it. For short runs multimode fiber is good enough and unlike ethernet it will outlast the technology - you should be able to upgrade your terminating equipment and get higher speeds over same existing fiber run.
 
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reader2580

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Ethernet does not really require surge protection - it is galvanically isolated at both ends of ethernet connection - if you open up your ethernet device, you'll see ethernet transformers on PCBs right next to RJ-45s. If you are trying to run the connection outdoors and worried about lightning strikes, ethernet is the wrong product to use. You should run fiber instead and use either ethernet-to-fiber media converters, or fiber SFPs if your devices support it. For short runs multimode fiber is good enough and unlike ethernet it will outlast the technology - you should be able to upgrade your terminating equipment and get higher speeds over same existing fiber run.

The Ethernet is run outside through a 170 foot conduit underground. I don't have any way on the far end to power a switch with an SFP port. Even though there is a breaker panel out there acting as a solar combiner it is full. I can't add another breaker for a receptacle.

I should probably have done things differently, but trying to change things now would incur as much as $2,000 in additional expenses to change the panel, replace 190 feet of wire, trench in new conduit, and buy the fiber and switches.
 

dls

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If you still have space in conduit, you could still run fiber in the same conduit with ethernet and use your existing ethernet run to provide power to remote media converter with a low voltage power supply. By combining pairs you could avoid significant voltage drop. You'll get all benefits of fiber, without worrying about surge protection. Lightning should not be an issue since your conduit is buried.
 
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reader2580

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I thought about this for a while and finally recalled that some breaker manufacturers make quad breakers. I did some research and found that Square D makes a Homeline breaker with a 20 amp two pole breaker and two 15 amp breakers in a two pole space.

There is no way I am going to be able to pull a fiber through a 3/4" conduit that already has two direct burial Cat 6 cables in it. I am worried I can't pull a fiber by itself through a 3/4" conduit without breaking the delicate fiber. I would need to use a fiber assembly that is already terminated as I have no way to terminate fiber.
 

dls

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You are more likely to break conduit than breaking fiber when pulling fiber in kevlar jacket, but it space is limited I see how this can become in issue. I have pulled fiber in 50" 3/4 conduit with mule tape, two runs of CAT3 and one RG6 already in it and as long as your fishing tape can get trough and you don't have too many bends, you should have no trouble pulling fiber.
 

jeepxj

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never change garage journal. guy asks a simple question about ethernet and off the rails it went.
 

jeepxj

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Is Tupavco actually a good product? I have been looking at their DIN rail mounted surge protectors. I have a small enclosure out there with a DIN rail in it. I have DIN mounted Ethernet jacks already.

honestly its not a terrible product. you could spend 500 a pop and not be that much better off. stick to the 50-100 range and you're in good hands IMO
 

dls

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never change garage journal. guy asks a simple question about ethernet and off the rails it went.

Simple answer is ethernet devices are already galvanically isolated. That is the reason there are not a lot of surge protectors for ethernet. Ethernet wire is literally sitting between two transformers rated for at least 1500v. Many devices are rated for 2500v. Here is a datasheet for transformer found in ethernet devices:
https://www.we-online.de/katalog/datasheet/749013011.pdf
 

AP514

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a 170 pull with only 2 Cat6 cables in the conduit would be Fast and Easy.
If worried about the fiber cable remove the 2 Cat6's and repull them all at once.
As far as your panel goes I could not tell you. (Pic would help) Some of the Sparkies will be along to help with that.
Maybe you can replace 1 Breaker with 2 Thins...
 

westom

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There is no way I am going to be able to pull a fiber through a 3/4" conduit that already has two direct burial Cat 6 cables in it.
Don't even try. Fiber does not address reasons for damage.

Two structures. Every wire incoming to each structure must connect low impedance to that structure's earth ground before entering. If any wire inside any incoming cable does not, then all protection is compromised.

That is single point earth ground. And not any other ground.

A Tech Note demonstrates this concept. Every wire (overhead or underground) is a potentially incoming destructive path. Protection only exists when each wire connects to earth BEFORE entering. Only then is a surge not anywhere inside.

Every good protector has a dedicated wire to make that low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground. Since earthing electrodes (and not any protector) define all protection. Protectors are only connecting devices to what does all protection. From all surges including direct lightning strikes.

If that properly earthed solution does not exist, then a surge in one structure is also a direct (and destructive) connection to electronics in that other structure.

Nothing new here. As done over 100 years ago in facilities that could not have damage.

Your telco CO suffers about 100 surges with every thunderstorm. How often is your town without phones for four day while they replace that $million computer? Never? Because this is the solution also found in every telco CO all over the world - when damage cannot happen.

They don't waste tens or 100 times more money on magic protectors that will somehow 'block' what three miles of sky cannot. They do not waste money on magic protectors that are only rated to 'absorb' thousand joules. Instead, they earth effective protectors. That means a connection, to what harmlessly 'absorbs' *hundreds of thousand of joules* (earth ground electrodes), is low impedance (ie has no sharp bends or splices).

No protector does protection. Not one. Best protector is only a connecting device to what does all protection - single point earth ground. Most attention focuses there when best protection is desired. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

That 3/4" conduit has multiple Cat 6 wires? All must have same ethernet protection at both ends. Located to make a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to each structure's earth ground. Otherwise all protection is compromised.

Same applies to every incoming AC electric wire.

Expensive fiber would accomplish almost nothing.

Best protection at each appliance is already inside each appliance. Includes galvanic isolation in each ethernet port. Good for maybe 2000 volts. Effective protection does not addresses that. And yes, that ethernet port protection is superior to any protector that would be adjacent to electronics.

Best protection, already inside every appliance, must be protected from destructive surges. Those easily blow through that robust galvanic isolation. And also find other destructive paths.

Best protection only exists when a surge (lightning is only one example) does not exist anywhere inside. Then best protection, already inside every appliance, is not overwhelmed. Best protection means destructive transients connect to and dissipate harmlessly in earth BEFORE entering a structure.

As demonstrated by that Tech Note. As Ben Franklin first demonstrated over 250 years ago. Earth ground (not any protector or lightning rod) defines quality and effectiveness of protection.
 
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Raisedonadeere

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westom, this make me think there should be a ground rod at every air conditioner condenser. Connected to the chassis. Also my sewer pump about 10 feet from house should be ground roded.
 

kaffine

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Don't even try. Fiber does not address reasons for damage.

Two structures. Every wire incoming to each structure must connect low impedance to that structure's earth ground before entering. If any wire inside any incoming cable does not, then all protection is compromised.

That is single point earth ground. And not any other ground.

A Tech Note demonstrates this concept. Every wire (overhead or underground) is a potentially incoming destructive path. Protection only exists when each wire connects to earth BEFORE entering. Only then is a surge not anywhere inside.


I guess the electronics in the building would be safe if everything has a low impedance to ground, however nothing will work either.

That is the reason for surge protection is it allows high impedance to ground under normal circumstances so things work, while providing a low impedance to ground during surges.
 

westom

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westom, this make me think there should be a ground rod at every air conditioner condenser.
Then surge damage to that AC condenser is made easier. Expression was repeated because it is that critical and because so many often do not get it.

That Tech Note clearly demonstrated only one earth ground. Every incoming wire must connect low impedance only to that one ground. Then any surge on any wire only connects to earth at that service entrance. Is never inside.

What happens when an earth ground is at the AC condenser? Then a surge starts using any appliance as a connection to that AC condenser - and its earth ground.

Earth a surge. Never earth its victims.

Only item that can connect to earth ground is a main breaker box. Code is quite blunt about this human protection requirement. No appliance and no receptacle can connect to earth ground. If not obvious, safety ground (ie in a wall receptacle) and earth ground are electrically different.

So that protection is effective, that hardwire also must be low impedance (ie not inside any metallic conduit). Every foot shorter decreases impedance and increases protection of everything else - including that condenser and sewer pump.

Earthing a sewer pump not only makes pump damage easier. But also makes a path to that earth ground destructively via other appliances.

An AC utility demonstrates same "single point earth ground" in good, bad, and ugly examples in their Tech Tip 8.

Telcos not only connect all incoming wires to single point earth ground (as short as is practicable) in underground vaults. They also want all electronics to be up to 50 meters separated from protection. That longer wire increases impedance - increases electronics protection. Since telcos must suffer about 100 surges with each storm - and no damage.

Protection increases with greater separation between potential victims and earth ground.
 
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reader2580

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Fiber is not expensive these days. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YWK8C4X/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Fiber is nonconductive, unless it is for direct burial with tracer wire, that must be grounded.

It isn't the fiber that is expensive. It is all the other stuff needed. That fiber you linked to doesn't come in the right length, but there are other options from other manufacturers.

Fiber $100
Outdoor switch $160
Parts to install outlet $75
Indoor switch $200
SFPs $50

Total around $600 to switch to fiber. Not outrageous, but a good chunk of money.
 

Innovate1

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After having some damage here from unusually strong/close strikes I installed a "whole house" protector in the house panel and also in the garage panel. I used DTK-MRJPOE Ditek Power Over Ethernet Surge Protector at both ends of the ethernet. Time will tell if that is adequate. Short runs to the common ground for the building are important. Mine comes in right next to my breaker panel so that was easy in my case.

As for the isolation of the ethernet at the jacks in the equipment it is true that they are good for 1500V or something close to that. I had several routers damaged but not other equipment that was not connected to the internet so it seems it went through the ethenet cables. Surges can get to 6000 V (or more but that is considered max for residential setting and what we test our products to at work). I wouldn't consider the ethernet built in isolation adequate for between building runs.

You could set up wired to wifi equipment at each end. If something gets destroyed it would be limited to the wifi box at either end.
 

Raisedonadeere

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Weston, another thought you triggered, my shed about 50 feet from house has a ground rod (by code) where as my ac condenser of course does not. Me think we are just rolling the dice knowing the shed is more likely to take its own lightning strike so we put a rod there to protect the content devices where as the condenser surge would be coming from a house strike and if the condenser itself was struck a close low impedance ground path would not be of much help anyway. And if it is the light pole that is hit certainly you don't want a low impedance ground path at your devices.

I realize this could turn into a thread hijack, but it is hard to run across information on grounding that you can apply. I will move any further inquiries or responses to a new thread.

My garage internet is next on my list though.
 
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reader2580

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I need two Ethernet connections which is why I ran two Ethernet cables out there. I didn't want to put a switch out there which would require a receptacle.

Fiber would require power not matter what. I would probably just run one fiber and a switch instead of two fibers and two fiber transceivers.
 

dls

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Check out Netgear GS105PE. It is PoE-powered 5-port switch with PoE pass-through. It could take 802.2at and pass-through 802.2af with proper power negotiation and everything. I am using two of these.
 

westom

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Weston, another thought you triggered, my shed about 50 feet from house has a ground rod (by code) where as my ac condenser of course does not.
I am thinking you want to protect an AC condenser from a direct lighting strike. Earthing that condenser is not recommended. Since it must be safety grounded - a completely different ground. However a lightning rod, so that the AC condenser is inside its 60 degree cone of protection, will provide that protection. Lightning rod also only as effective as Its earth ground.

Above recommended protection is only the 'secondary' protection layer. Each protection layer is only defined by an earth ground.

Light pole (ie transformer) must have its own earth ground. That is your 'primary' protection layer.

If that transformer earth ground does not exist, then lightning can connect high voltage (primary - maybe 4000 or 13,000 volts) directly into household 240/120 volt wires. That earth ground also should be inspected.
 

jeepxj

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we're only 4 pages away from someone saying put a faraday cage around your entire property and 50' underground.
 
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reader2580

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Check out Netgear GS105PE. It is PoE-powered 5-port switch with PoE pass-through. It could take 802.2at and pass-through 802.2af with proper power negotiation and everything. I am using two of these.

That doesn't really solve any problems for me. If I switch to fiber I will need a switch that has an SFP port. I wouldn't want to keep any of the Ethernet cables connected to power a switch via POE. That defeats the purpose of changing to fiber if I still have an Ethernet cable connected.
 

dls

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What kind of devices are you connecting to ethernet and where do they get power? Could you power media convertor or switch from the same source?
 

jeepxj

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That doesn't really solve any problems for me. If I switch to fiber I will need a switch that has an SFP port. I wouldn't want to keep any of the Ethernet cables connected to power a switch via POE. That defeats the purpose of changing to fiber if I still have an Ethernet cable connected.

I've put in plenty of garage to house setups on copper ethernet without surge protectors. not one has failed.


your risk of lightning strike will vary on many factors. but put your protectors in and move on. if it gets fried then worry about fixing it with fiber with insurance money.
 
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reader2580

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What kind of devices are you connecting to ethernet and where do they get power? Could you power media convertor or switch from the same source?

I am connecting Ethernet to a Solaredge solar inverter and an Enphase Envoy IQ. The breaker panel the inverters connect to is full. I did realize later that Square D makes a quad tandem breaker that replaces a double pole breaker I could use to power a switch or media converter.
 
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reader2580

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I've put in plenty of garage to house setups on copper ethernet without surge protectors. not one has failed.


your risk of lightning strike will vary on many factors. but put your protectors in and move on. if it gets fried then worry about fixing it with fiber with insurance money.

This is what I am going to do for now. I am ordering the surge protectors and will move on with getting my solar system up and running.

I've invested more money than I ever imagined to move my solar system to a new location so I don't want to invest a bunch more money on changing the network connection to fiber right now.
 
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