Radiant heating may not be worth the money.

[BIMMERBOYZ]

I’ve been building my garage for a few years now. Doing a good amount of the work myself. On this forum everyone said install pex now or you’ll wish you had.
I put insulation down, ran 5 loops of Pex, it wasn’t difficult but really time consuming and about 3000$ in material.

Now I am getting quotes for a boiler combi unit, as I have a apartment above the garage.

Price for 155BTU combi unit boiler installed, 10k$. If someone sends it pre assembled, 7500$. I’d have to run the vent, electrical and hook up the zones. Not a big deal.

Or I just add another Water heater for the apartment for 500-1000$ and moth ball the time and money wasted for radiant heating.

 

[Showkey]

Agree hanging furnace is usually the least expensive all in.

Trades are crazy busy.......so $10k maybe is the blue sky estimate, don’t need work but will make a crazy bid. Just got a estimate for $12k on conventional furnace/AC it was the don’t need work.

Sounds like you can do the install......Have no idea of the quality or longevity ........but there are many choices of off the shelf boilers:

https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...430-c-8519.htm?tid=2765870899846821948&ipos=4

 

[yeldogt]

What's the heat load of the building ?

So the second floor apt is just for DHW ...no heat?


The 155btu is because you are heating hot water for use ... the building will need much less

 

[kj_mustang]

https://www.mytanklesswaterheaterstore.com/navien-ncb-150e-condensing-gas-combination-boiler-ncb/
$2,000 for the boiler and another few hundred for pumps, manifolds, etc, so don't see how labor could add up to that much more.

 

[Racy2]

I paid $10,000 for install of boiler combi unit 5 years ago with about the same BTU. I had received 3 quotes at the time and they were all in the same ball park here in Canada for what it is worth.

 

[BIMMERBOYZ]

Up stairs is heated by it’s own mini split setup.

I am considering just running two tankless water heaters. 1 for the apartment, 1 for the pex.

I have no idea what pumps, valves etc. are needed for radiant heating.

 

[Showkey]

Up stairs is heated by it’s own mini split setup.

I am considering just running two tankless water heaters. 1 for the apartment, 1 for the pex.

I have no idea what pumps, valves etc. are needed for radiant heating.

Unfortunately then your not ready to complete the install with off the shelf boiler. So you might need a pro install.
Are you considering using a tankless heater for the in floor heat ? or just the hot water ?
Many tankless heaters are NOT rated for in floor heat.

 

[tdkkart]

It seems that in floor heating is somehow "special" which is apparently license for contractors to raise the price by a factor of 3.

 

[yeldogt]

You need to have a heat load -- so you know what the area heated by the floor requires .... it's going to be a small fraction of the 155k

the 155k in the hot water heater is because you have to raise the water temp as it goes through the heater and never returns ..

Your floor needs far less ...

Two of the wrong things just makes 2x the expense and you still don't get to where you need to go

 

[Randy in Maine]

I would get a quote from a local pro to install a small efficient condensing boiler. I have a little Baxi condensing combi boiler (about $3K installed) that supplies all of the heat & domestic hot water I could ever need in my house and shop. There are other very good reliable units out there for reasonable money.

 

[Tduby]

I would get a quote from a local pro to install a small efficient condensing boiler. I have a little Baxi condensing combi boiler (about $3K installed) that supplies all of the heat & domestic hot water I could ever need in my house and shop. There are other very good reliable units out there for reasonable money.

I second this get a load call done there are some online but I bet you need a small 50k btu boiler and then run an indirect tank for hot water.
I don’t know what area you are in but if you are cold enough that a radiant floor garage made sense your mini split might not be very efficient on cold days.

 

[Ak Jim]

I’m not an expert but I live in Fairbanks AK, one of the coldest places in the world to live. I’m heating 3600 sqft. 1800 living and 1800 garage. Keep house at 68 and garage at 67. I have a system 2000 ek-1. The house is 50% hot water bb and 50 % radiant. The garage is 1300 sqft radiant and 500 sqft unit heater. The boiler also supplies all domestic hot water. The boiler is 120,000 btu. Sounds like the 155,000 is way to big for what you need.

 

[theoldwizard1]

How much is your COMFORT worth !

No one has ever claimed that radiant heat is a huge cost saving, but everyone who has it says it is the most comfortable form of heat they have ever experienced !

I know the experts all turn their nose up at water heaters, but it is hard to beat the price even if they only last 5-10 years.

 

[86turbodsl]

Radiant costs more from Pro's because they need to know more than a tin knocker. I have found that it's more of a specialty in the HVAC trades, at least around here. As for $3k, i hope that included all the basics, insulation and pex. The pex really isn't very expensive. Insulation may have gone up since i did it. I did 2500 sq ft for about 1800, but it was nearly 20 yrs ago.

 

[Randy in Maine]

My $3K got me my Baxi boiler installed with the controls and thermostats for my 3 zones running off one Taco 007 pump. It also got me my 4 manifolds set up and installed for 5 runs each, the lines bled and balanced.

I paid separately for the 2700' of 1/2" Upinor pex tubing, and my building contractor and I installed it in the (1200 ft2) floor joists of the house, and in the 6" of (1200 ft2) shop concrete. The third zone (300 ft2) was installed by me in 3" of concrete in this last zone (used to be an attached garage that is now a "work room") and the HVAC guy just hooked it all up.

That was back in 2009 during the crash and everyone was scrambling around looking for work. I think I got a few good deals because I was paying cash.

I spent a fair amount of $ super insulating everything though. R-40 SIPs were used to build the garage/shop. 2" of foam under the slab. 5 1/2" HD spray foam in the house ceilings. 6" of sheet foam in the work room. My boiler pretty much loafs most of the time. It sends out the 140º water, that comes back at about 80º, and then goes back out at 140º. Exactly what I wanted. Very cost effective and comfortable.

 

[nadogail]

The lack of information in the original message makes, IMHO, an intelligent answer impossible. If I don't know the location, construction, or use of the space to be heated; I just don't have enough information to respond in a constructive manner.

Help me out, lets start with your geographic location. The "in my back yard" or "Great White North" locations are uninformative.

 

[ssdave]

.....

 

[Don1357]

I still don't see where his DIY pex loops ran the bill to $3k. I got lucky using salvaged cement backed 2" blue foam for the slab insulation but the 3 loops on my 24×36 were around $400 in materials and tools, another $400 on the slab insulation. I'm yet to put it to a good use.

 

[yeldogt]

Combination boilers only work when the heat load of the building is high enough to match the MINIUM output the boiler can deliver .. even that is a problem as the design temp is the max needed for the building. Combination boilers are sized for the domestic hot water delivery ...

My new house in PA is 5k sf -- the design temp on that whole building is less than 60k BTU.

I need a boiler that can modulate down to as low as possible -- many combination boilers end up being in the 35k range. The better ones can modulate lower ... but w/o the ability to modulate low it's always putting out too much heat

 

[danski0224]

...and another few hundred for pumps, manifolds, etc,...

Another pipe smoker.

 

[danski0224]

Apparently, not too many responders have actually put together a parts and price list.

It is very easy to quickly exceed the cost of the boiler by a factor of 3 with all of the stuff attached to it.

And then there is the question of what design was used for the loops, and what will it take to push fluid through it... and then will it work.

Condensing boiler, low temperature radiant, high temperature indirect fired water heater, primary/secondary piping? Yeah, $10k isn't much of a stretch. Might even be "cheap".

 

[HPRifleman]

How can the radiant floor heating not be worth the money when the system isn't up and running for evaluation?

 

[danski0224]

How can the radiant floor heating not be worth the money when the system isn't up and running for evaluation?

Because the OP thought he could finish it out for $49.95....

 

[Showkey]

How can the radiant floor heating not be worth the money when the system isn't up and running for evaluation?

Because a hanging forced air furnace is often $3000 all in. DIY is often $1500 and the gas line often is the most expensive part. 80k Furnace is $400 and the venting is $200.
OP is or was looking at $10k plus for the boiler install.

 

[Denwood]

Radiant heating is awesome, but it's expensive, and in a garage, not the most efficient solution either, unless you're opening the door constantly and have traffic in/out all day.

We completed an energy retrofit of my commercial building, including 4600 sq/ft of radiant, but with air handlers (x5) for the building to manage fresh air, cooling, and recovery heating. What I found out after 3 years with 9 Ecobee stats (and all the data they gather) is that the radiant heat made sense for our loading bay (which was held at 8C to prevent freezing) but not much else. Aggressive setbacks don't make sense for radiant where recovery times are so long.

If you plan on keeping your garage at constant temp, then go radiant by all means. If efficiency is important (and it should be), then insulate the slab, but go with a hanging furnace or similar. This way, you can set aggressive set backs when the shop is not in use, and warm when needed. This is much more efficient. The algorithm changes for cooling (where a constant temp may be more efficient in a tight building).

Insulation on the other hand makes sense for pretty much every "cool" climate, and that is also where $$ invested have a higher likelihood of expedient cost recovery. One of the great things about your PEX system is that it is a perfect way to pump in solar BTUs with simple on/off system as your slab mass and insulation make it perfect for storing heat with whatever collectors you decide to add now, or later. So I think insulating your slab and laying PEX actually makes great sense looking to the future

 

[Don1357]

Apparently, not too many responders have actually put together a parts and price list.

It is very easy to quickly exceed the cost of the boiler by a factor of 3 with all of the stuff attached to it.

And then there is the question of what design was used for the loops, and what will it take to push fluid through it... and then will it work.

Condensing boiler, low temperature radiant, high temperature indirect fired water heater, primary/secondary piping? Yeah, $10k isn't much of a stretch. Might even be "cheap".

Actually it sounds like you haven't done a price list yourself.

Radiant heat can output 25~35BTU per square foot. When you do the math and look at the amount a lot of boilers put out, you soon realize that it doesn't take that much to run radiant heat; once things are warm it doesn't take much to keep it that way.

I am $800 and small change on slab insulation, loops, and manifold. That is actual cost as it sits on the ground today, no guess work involved. Doing a quick look at the homedepot site I see an overkill gas boiler for $2k. In reality I would need something smaller and cheaper but let's go with that. Throw in the expansion tank, pump, gauges, and a few more elbows and I see me at just north of $3k? What am I missing that is close to $7k?

OP: You do realize that "installing" a boiler is connecting it to power and attaching the water lines? If you call an expert to do that they deserve that money, expertise does not come cheap. If you do it yourself you deserve those savings.

 

[brewchief]

I bet danski is pretty close, I know that he like myself is a pro that has been down this road before. I do at least a handfull of boiler replacements a year and on a basic replacement the parts and materials needed are normally pretty close to the cost of the boiler( standard cast iron 80%).
Adding an indirect water heater (water quality in our area isn't good and tankless heaters and heat exchangers in combi units will get plugged up) adds a good bit of time, piping many high efficiency boolrrs requires primary/ secondary piping and that adds time and more material.

A guy doing it himself will certainly save money, remember this isn't a hobby for us.

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

 

[yeldogt]

Radiant heating is awesome, but it's expensive, and in a garage, not the most efficient solution either, unless you're opening the door constantly and have traffic in/out all day.

We completed an energy retrofit of my commercial building, including 4600 sq/ft of radiant, but with air handlers (x5) for the building to manage fresh air, cooling, and recovery heating. What I found out after 3 years with 9 Ecobee stats (and all the data they gather) is that the radiant heat made sense for our loading bay (which was held at 8C to prevent freezing) but not much else. Aggressive setbacks don't make sense for radiant where recovery times are so long.

If you plan on keeping your garage at constant temp, then go radiant by all means. If efficiency is important (and it should be), then insulate the slab, but go with a hanging furnace or similar. This way, you can set aggressive set backs when the shop is not in use, and warm when needed. This is much more efficient. The algorithm changes for cooling (where a constant temp may be more efficient in a tight building).

Insulation on the other hand makes sense for pretty much every "cool" climate, and that is also where $$ invested have a higher likelihood of expedient cost recovery. One of the great things about your PEX system is that it is a perfect way to pump in solar BTUs with simple on/off system as your slab mass and insulation make it perfect for storing heat with whatever collectors you decide to add now, or later. So I think insulating your slab and laying PEX actually makes great sense looking to the future

This is where delivery matters -- more tubing w/ closer spacing makes for faster response. 12" spacing and large setback are not going to work in a slab -- even more so if the slab is thick. More pipe = more BTU's to the slab = faster response. It also allows for lower water temps = more savings.

I like to use Warmboard inside w/ ALPex -- the thick AL sheet and Al Pex transfers the heat quickly. Quick response to the floor.

Proper outdoor reset and simple setbacks work best ..... you can never get them to move as fast as forced air.

Another thing is to increase Pex tubing in parts of the building and maintain temps that way. You do 12" spacing and then go back and double up in the areas where people will aways be -- this creates zones w/o any great thinking

 

[Don1357]

I bet danski is pretty close, I know that he like myself is a pro that has been down this road before. I do at least a handfull of boiler replacements a year and on a basic replacement the parts and materials needed are normally pretty close to the cost of the boiler( standard cast iron 80%).
Adding an indirect water heater (water quality in our area isn't good and tankless heaters and heat exchangers in combi units will get plugged up) adds a good bit of time, piping many high efficiency boolrrs requires primary/ secondary piping and that adds time and more material.

A guy doing it himself will certainly save money, remember this isn't a hobby for us.

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

This is the thing: When you hire a pro you do get your money's worth because you are paying for years of expertise. He knows what your setup requires and just about any conceivable setup out there.

As a do-it-yourself'er you get to cheat. You don't need to become an expert on radiant heaters. You don't need to learn and know every single possible setup out in the world; you just need to learn the one in front of you. By becoming a one trick pony the do-it-your-self'er can perform that single job that otherwise would cost him having to hire an expert for.

 

[danski0224]

Every setup (installation) is unique.

Not every professional does it correctly. Nor does every DIY'er.

However, piping instructions are included in the boiler manual. They just need to be read

 

[BIMMERBOYZ]

I live in Herriman Utah.

Once again the cost to prep the floor for radiant heat was 3k$. That includes a pex stapler, pex, pex 90’s and 4x8 Rigid insulation.

The garage is 13’-14’ in height and 25’ wide by 60’ long. It’s insulated with R19 in the 2x6 walls and R38 in ceiling.

Reason for this post was suggesting that a forced air unit is probably suffice enough for 90% of general Garage Journal member.

 

[Denwood]

This is where delivery matters -- more tubing w/ closer spacing makes for faster response. 12" spacing and large setback are not going to work in a slab -- even more so if the slab is thick. More pipe = more BTU's to the slab = faster response. It also allows for lower water temps = more savings.

I like to use Warmboard inside w/ ALPex -- the thick AL sheet and Al Pex transfers the heat quickly. Quick response to the floor.

Proper outdoor reset and simple setbacks work best ..... you can never get them to move as fast as forced air.

Another thing is to increase Pex tubing in parts of the building and maintain temps that way. You do 12" spacing and then go back and double up in the areas where people will aways be -- this creates zones w/o any great thinking

By fast response, I mean getting the air at least to temp in 10-15 minutes. You can't do that with radiant. Again, it's not that my staff was not loving the radiant when it was -25C outside, but when you do an efficient envelope, the benefits of radiant likely do not outweigh the cost.

I should specify that my data on radiant vs air handlers (force air) reflects a cold climate. We also ran the air handlers on the same hot water system (a single triangle tube on demand unit) that the floor ran on (but not mixed, so higher temps) so I had the rather novel situation of being able to heat the main floor (4500 sq/ft) exclusively with radiant, or forced air in the same space. I gathered data from the nine ecobee3 stats we used with approx 18 external wireless sensors for temp/occupancy.

This was a relatively thin over-pour over an existing slab (with 2" SM underlay), professionally designed, so recovery times on the slab were actually relatively quick. Insulate the slab? 100%. However, it's hard to argue the data which clearly showed my demand run times clearly dropped with high set backs and fast recovery via the air handlers. The Ecobee stats were actually pretty good with this is they learn the building response, and are also weather aware..so the software decided the recovery times as well.

The national reseach council did a great study using twin homes and setback research over both summer and winter...this is an interesting read: https://nrc-publications.canada.ca/eng/view/accepted/?id=8ad3a26e-39be-4ec6-837a-2b6d92bf6560 Granted, they did not test radiant, but my data clearly shows the setback logic is about right for our climate.

The other issue I saw in winter (running radiant only) was often a mid-day thermal bump where inside temps would rise above their set point around 1-2pm if occupancy and solar gain + energy stored in the slab earlier in the morning combined to essentially "overheat" the space. This is wasted BTU input. By keeping slab temps lower via radiant (about 15C), I could control this 100% by using the air handlers to limit the added energy. This latter strategy was more efficient with respect to both HVAC power use, and NG consumption. Again, remember we're talking about a space with a hyper efficient envelope, but with outside temps that dip to -35C in winter.

 

[JeremiahTRD]

I have a 5000 square foot shop. Total cost all in was $8k including the floor pex.

My gas heat bill is incredible. Highest bill I have had is about $200 thermostat set at 70 shoulder months its $60 to $80 a month.

The link below is the company I used. They prebuild the manifolds etc.. and ship them to you. you only have to sweat a couple fittings. Very easy to install and they do all the legwork desiging the system. Best of all they have tech support which is excellent and included in the pricing.

instead of a boiler they use a hot water heater which has proven itself to be more than capable. I have had the system for 3 years and no issues.


https://www.radiantcompany.com/

 

[finn]

You can’t compare heating costs in a mild climate with a short heating season like Tennessee with that of much of Canada or the extreme upper Midwest. You have to normalize for degree days.

I fully agree withDenwood: the fact that one cannot reasonably employ a setback strategy with radiant is a deal killer if one is trying to minimize operating costs.

It’s great for comfort in most cases (doesn’t respond fast enough in the shoulder seasons without an advanced control strategy), but it is expensive to install and inflexible, so you are pretty much limited to heating 24/7.

I have it in my house and shop, but don’t think I would spring for it if I were to build a new shop, since it’s of limited value the way I use the shop.

I also have pex in the floor of the garage / chop at home, but I never completed the installation. A wood stove and hanging propane heater are better for me.

 

[Don1357]

You can’t compare heating costs in a mild climate with a short heating season like Tennessee with that of much of Canada or the extreme upper Midwest. You have to normalize for degree days.

Or more to the point, the temperature you plan on having your shop at.

Today was a gorgeous day here, 27F with no wind. I spent the day outfitting the garage gloveless and while wearing sockless crocks. Next year when I get the heat going I will set it to 40f! That's shorts weather for sure

 

[danski0224]

I have a 5000 square foot shop. Total cost all in was $8k including the floor pex.

My gas heat bill is incredible. Highest bill I have had is about $200 thermostat set at 70 shoulder months its $60 to $80 a month.

The link below is the company I used. They prebuild the manifolds etc.. and ship them to you. you only have to sweat a couple fittings. Very easy to install and they do all the legwork desiging the system. Best of all they have tech support which is excellent and included in the pricing.

instead of a boiler they use a hot water heater which has proven itself to be more than capable. I have had the system for 3 years and no issues.

It would be interesting to know the actual calculated heating load.

The "standard" 40k btu input gas water heater is only 62% efficient at best.... so about 40% of what you are spending on fuel is going up the chimney. Standby losses are additional.

 

[Showkey]

It would be interesting to know the actual calculated heating load.

The "standard" 40k btu input gas water heater is only 62% efficient at best.... so about 40% of what you are spending on fuel is going up the chimney. Standby losses are additional.

Agree.......5000 sqft on 40k minus efficiency must be very very well insulated or a warm climate.

Also agree Nat gas is cheap.

 

[yeldogt]

By fast response, I mean getting the air at least to temp in 10-15 minutes. You can't do that with radiant. Again, it's not that my staff was not loving the radiant when it was -25C outside, but when you do an efficient envelope, the benefits of radiant likely do not outweigh the cost.

I should specify that my data on radiant vs air handlers (force air) reflects a cold climate. We also ran the air handlers on the same hot water system (a single triangle tube on demand unit) that the floor ran on (but not mixed, so higher temps) so I had the rather novel situation of being able to heat the main floor (4500 sq/ft) exclusively with radiant, or forced air in the same space. I gathered data from the nine ecobee3 stats we used with approx 18 external wireless sensors for temp/occupancy.

This was a relatively thin over-pour over an existing slab (with 2" SM underlay), professionally designed, so recovery times on the slab were actually relatively quick. Insulate the slab? 100%. However, it's hard to argue the data which clearly showed my demand run times clearly dropped with high set backs and fast recovery via the air handlers. The Ecobee stats were actually pretty good with this is they learn the building response, and are also weather aware..so the software decided the recovery times as well.

The national reseach council did a great study using twin homes and setback research over both summer and winter...this is an interesting read: https://nrc-publications.canada.ca/eng/view/accepted/?id=8ad3a26e-39be-4ec6-837a-2b6d92bf6560 Granted, they did not test radiant, but my data clearly shows the setback logic is about right for our climate.

The other issue I saw in winter (running radiant only) was often a mid-day thermal bump where inside temps would rise above their set point around 1-2pm if occupancy and solar gain + energy stored in the slab earlier in the morning combined to essentially "overheat" the space. This is wasted BTU input. By keeping slab temps lower via radiant (about 15C), I could control this 100% by using the air handlers to limit the added energy. This latter strategy was more efficient with respect to both HVAC power use, and NG consumption. Again, remember we're talking about a space with a hyper efficient envelope, but with outside temps that dip to -35C in winter.

I'm with you all the way ....

Since I always build my houses with AC .. I always have a second system w/ ductwork in the house. This is not often the case with a garage ...

Radiant is not perfect. Things you can do to make it "better". It's why I often chime in when I see some of the seat of the pants pipe layouts ... and others say "my system works great" A bad radiant system will get heat to the slab and heat the building as long as the boiler is big enough.

What you discovered are all normal --- with ducts available or additional radiators the ideal situation is to set the boilers ODR lower to warm the floors and use fan coils -- or something else to make the final adjustments.

Any high mass deliver system will over shoot on mild days ... and they don't work quick enough on a cold morning in September. This is true of old style cast radiators -- although they are quicker vs a floor.

That's why I like more complex piping layouts in large garage spaces --- if you put more pipe in areas where people are going to be and leave the bulk of the space with less .... there is a natural difference and the overall space is actually more comfortable and costs less to heat.

I'm an old house guy - I have retrofitted lots of old building with hot water heat. I do it for the comfort not for cost ... it's always more money.

My current project has both full radiant and zoned ductwork/ mini-split heat pumps w/ propane backup. The radiant will maintain a set temp in most of the house and the ductwork will balance and add where needed. Most people are not going to build this complex ... but, I'm a nerd with this stuff and can afford it. I also build with lots of glass and most of my old buildings are foamed ...but, have exposed stone as well. Radiant allows these building to be comfortable

 

[yeldogt]

I have a 5000 square foot shop. Total cost all in was $8k including the floor pex.

My gas heat bill is incredible. Highest bill I have had is about $200 thermostat set at 70 shoulder months its $60 to $80 a month.

The link below is the company I used. They prebuild the manifolds etc.. and ship them to you. you only have to sweat a couple fittings. Very easy to install and they do all the legwork desiging the system. Best of all they have tech support which is excellent and included in the pricing.

instead of a boiler they use a hot water heater which has proven itself to be more than capable. I have had the system for 3 years and no issues.


https://www.radiantcompany.com/

Insulation --- heat load and running costs all go back to insulation and how tight the building. The cost of BTU's is the same

My new house is 5k and even with lots of glass and exposed stone the load is under 60k ,,,, that's in PA. The ability to heat with a hot water tank is all about the heat loss of the building and the burner size of the heater. Tank size does not matter.

 

[tricountytrail]

Apparently, not too many responders have actually put together a parts and price list.

It is very easy to quickly exceed the cost of the boiler by a factor of 3 with all of the stuff attached to it.

And then there is the question of what design was used for the loops, and what will it take to push fluid through it... and then will it work.

Condensing boiler, low temperature radiant, high temperature indirect fired water heater, primary/secondary piping? Yeah, $10k isn't much of a stretch. Might even be "cheap".

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Love my Radiant set up 100% satisfied.

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