Federal Pacific Power Panel Upgrade Questions

[Leaky88]

Hi,
I have a rural 42 YO, 3000 SQ Ft home in Southern IL.
It currently has 2, 200A Federal Pacific L120-40 Stab-Loc Panels, 40 breakers each pictured. 1 supplies a 100A sub panel in my 40x60 Shop.
Recently, the main breaker on right would not turn back while attempting to reset it. Found a new Main Breaker for $200 out of place in Miami on Amazon. eBay has a sea of “used” stuff. Further, I have found several “disturbing articles” on these panels/breakers indicating it “out with the old, and in with the new”.

If anyone’s had experience with these FP Stab-Loc panels, I’d be interested in knowing what actions you took, the cost, be it DIY or outside assistance.



Thanks
Leaky

 

[Richard Cranium]

Have them replaced with a new panel as soon as you can. I have a rental that had one of the fp panel in it. The first time it was empty, I had it changed out.
The breakers either don't trip or they are very slow at it. Change it out ,now before it is too late

 

[NUTTSGT]

I was told by a retired electrician friend when I told him I had one in my garage (when first purchased) that they have one problem. Starting fires.


That being said, I have not encountered alot of them causing problems in the last 20 plus years as a firefighter. I'd say that would probably be cause, we don't see many of them. Most of our issues are due to overloaded wiring and 30A fuses in place of 15A fuses.

Keep in mind, if the main breaker failed like it did, how long do you think it will be before one of the circuit breakers fail ? Maybe never but knowing what you know now. . . .

 

[Bert_]

Put a used one in for now and plan on replacing the whole panel. Those FPE stablock panels have known issues.

You can probably get a better deal on replacing the panel if it doesn't have to be done "right now"

 

[Leaky88]

Thanks

Well I’m not interested in meeting any of the Rural Fire Volunteers.

What downtime and cost can I expect to get these replaced?
Leaky

 

[alfredeneuman]

Put a used one in for now and plan on replacing the whole panel. Those FPE stablock panels have known issues.
You can probably get a better deal on replacing the panel if it doesn't have to be done "right now"

I agree. When some contractors hear "emergency" they're prices go up exponentially.
Get at least 3 qualified bids and choose the one that best suits your needs, but replace both them ASAP.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Thanks

Well I’m not interested in meeting any of the Rural Fire Volunteers.

What downtime and cost can I expect to get these replaced?
Leaky

Depends what you replace it with. I would try to swap out the boxes with the same brand/style. . . . like both Square D QO, not a Square D QO and a Homeline.

Cost is going to depend on who does it. Are they pulling the meter ? Can they pull the meter or will it require the PoCo ? Permit required ? Looks like you have enough wire in the box for the swap, nothing to extend, so that should make the job faster/easier.


The more hands involved, the more it'll cost.

What is the round thing in the bottom left of the breaker box ? Some type of kila-watt meter ?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Depends what you replace it with. I would try to swap out the boxes with the same brand/style. . . . like both Square D QO, not a Square D QO and a Homeline.

Cost is going to depend on who does it. Are they pulling the meter ? Can they pull the meter or will it require the PoCo ? Permit required ? Looks like you have enough wire in the box for the swap, nothing to extend, so that should make the job faster/easier.


The more hands involved, the more it'll cost.

What is the round thing in the bottom left of the breaker box? Some type of kila-watt meter ?

Its a CT- current transformer for measuring amperage

 

[reader2580]

What downtime and cost can I expect to get these replaced?

My father and I replaced a single 200 amp panel in my house in about eight hours. I would think an experienced electrician could replace one panel per day, or both in a day with good help. Your panels will be a bit more work since they have drywall around them.

 

[Terry D]

There is nothing wrong with the actual panel, its the breakers. They are known not to trip.
I got my wires mixed up one time, thought i was cutting a dead one, turned out it was live Did a number on my set of Klein's, but did not trip the breaker

 

[Leaky88]

Its a CT- current transformer for measuring amperage

I belong to a Power CoOP. The CTs, tied to an additional meter, were in box when I bought the house. Served to provide discounted power cost on HVAC and Kitchen Range.

 

[BreeStephany]

I definitely have to agree with all of the other responses. FPE panels are known as "Federal Pacific No-Blows" because a 15A breaker generally will take a ~30A load before the breaker blows, which can cause the wiring, splices and devices on a given circuit to degrade, melt and potentially cause a fire long before causing the breaker to actually trip. Further, the Stab-Loc breakers do not have an adequate bond between the breaker and the bussing of the panel, which can heat up and cause arcing between the breaker and bussing, causing the bus to degrade which causes further resistance and more heat, which can lead to a fire as well.

I would get those panels swapped as soon as possible, try to refrain from using any large loads on them if at all possible and check for arcing / melting in the panel and turn off those circuits immediately until you can get the panels swapped.

 

[Norcal]

Even without the issues of FPE, Fisher Price Electric StabLoc breakers, they are obsolete & breakers are expensive, that is a good reason by it's self to replace.

 

[rlitman]

Its a CT- current transformer for measuring amperage

Just an FYI for the OP:
DO NOT remove the CT if there is any current flowing through the wire it goes around. Disconnecting a CT from a live circuit will result in a fire/explosion (ok, small explosion, not Hollywood type, but still enough to hurt someone).

 

[DeeKay]

Just an FYI for the OP:
DO NOT remove the CT if there is any current flowing through the wire it goes around. Disconnecting a CT from a live circuit will result in a fire/explosion (ok, small explosion, not Hollywood type, but still enough to hurt someone).

I had never heard that, how does that work?

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

A CT is a current transformer that is engineered to measure amperage (current) with an output of maximum of 5 amps for metering or load shedding....... This current coil is similar to an amp probe meter and they are NOT one size fits all applications.
I suspect the OPs panel uses this CT for a owners meter (for monitoring power consumption) or a generator for load shedding.
YES this "donut" coil will explode and the secondary wires must be shunted together to stop this from building up too much current.

BTW! ANY brand panel is better than a FPE...... I am a fan of Square D QO panels.

 

[bigmike989]

Another argument for replacement is if and when you do sell the house, a home inspector will flag FPE as a defect.

 

[DeeKay]

I know what a CT is/does, we use them to keep motor overloads smaller/cheaper for our larger lower voltage ac motors like 150hp and up.
I had just never heard of them exploding, interesting stuff!

Now related to the OPs post, I can say from experience that those panels are El Garbagio, my parents had one in their house and the 15amp breaker feeding the garage never ever tripped even with an air compressor and welder running at the same time. At the time didn't think anything of it, but after going to school I looked in the panel and found a lot of crispy wires. They ended up getting it replaced shortly after.

 

[grounded-b]

A CT is a current transformer that is engineered to measure amperage (current) with an output of maximum of 5 amps for metering or load shedding.......
YES this "donut" coil will explode and the secondary wires must be shunted together to stop this from building up too much current.

The issue with CT's is not that they will "build up too much current" when the output wires are disconnected. The problem is that when "open circuited", there is "no current flow", therefore the voltage will increase to the point that the insulation breaks down and you have a dead short internally - then BOOM !!

Or, you will receive a severe shock, not unlike the primary side ignition coil shock on a car.

The proper thing to do, is to short the terminals of a CT, BEFORE you remove any wiring. This will allow the 5A to flow, but limit the voltage.

Steve
JW electrician

 

[Ilikeike]

We did a service change like that in a day easy, lots of federal and old Zinsco panels. If there was something special we could have the main all back up that day and come back the next day to finish up any details. It's been 20 years since I did electrical work but it was around $1,000-$1,500 back then.

Locally we have an electrical wholesale place that we would sell the serviceable old breakers to, maybe you have a place like that around there you can buy a main from to get you by until you can do a service change. I don't know if the owner Sherry will do an online order, but maybe our local place can do an over the phone sale and send you a breaker if you get in a pinch.
https://trombetta-electrical-distribution-inc.business.site/

 

[shieldcracker]

Consider that at some point you could have to change more breakers on that panel or the one next to it. These breakers today are expensive compared to the average alternate breaker.
However you could install a 200A breaker enclosure next to your load center and use it to feed the power to the loadcenter. The to do this cost will be less than the replacement breaker and if you get the right one you can reuse when you decide to replace the loadcenter. This will buy you some time.

 

[toplessHO]

check with AHD
here they allow replacement of panel can and interior
as long as you replace with like sizes.
GFCI for GFCI,20A for 20A. No additional circuits or changes in amperage.
Its just me but nothing beats a SqD QO breaker,buy once cry once.
Going the cheapskate route they do make UL approved retrofit kits that reuse the old panel can and cover,just replace interior,breakers and deadfront.

 

[65ranchero]

Definitely replace FP
$ 800 to replace 60amp fuse box with 150 amp SQ D in NJ in circa 1985
2 guys 8hrs
my thought is $1500 plus extra

 

[toplessHO]

Consider that at some point you could have to change more breakers on that panel or the one next to it. These breakers today are expensive compared to the average alternate breaker.
However you could install a 200A breaker enclosure next to your load center and use it to feed the power to the loadcenter. The to do this cost will be less than the replacement breaker and if you get the right one you can reuse when you decide to replace the loadcenter. This will buy you some time.

please dont spend another dime on keeping that POS panel alive another day.

 

[Bert_]

Those little ct's aren't likely to go bang if you open circuit it. Might stop working or not be accurate anymore, maybe let out some smoke.

Bigger ones can go boom

 

[Snip]

In my last house in Colorado the entire subdivision, maybe 4-500 homes were built (late 70's ) using 100a FPE boxes. I know of 2 that burnt while we lived there from electrical issues. In the few years leading up to us selling and moving everybody that sold had to replace the panel or offer concessions to complete the sale. Home inspection always flagged the panel. We got quotes along the lines of 3-4k to replace with a 200a panel. We wound up finding a small company for 2200 and replaced before going on market,
Never talked to a electrician that thought you should keep a FPE panel.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Those little ct's aren't likely to go bang if you open circuit it. Might stop working or not be accurate anymore, maybe let out some smoke.

Bigger ones can go boom

The greater the current going through the unshunted coil the louder the bang.
I have personally witnessed this is a Multi Amp (lab setting) school.

 

[Bert_]

The greater the current going through the unshunted coil the louder the bang.
I have personally witnessed this is a Multi Amp (lab setting) school.

I've seen little ones open circuited and nothing happened. Even seemed to work afterwards. No guarantee on accuracy thought. Yes there was some current on the primary.

Obviously you should still always short the secondary if you're working on it.

 

[Leaky88]

Anyone know the cost of these CT’s?

 

[DeeKay]

Anyone know the cost of these CT’s?

Anywhere from $5 for tiny ones up to $500-1000s for medium voltage guys.

 

[alfredeneuman]

However you could install a 200A breaker enclosure next to your load center and use it to feed the power to the loadcenter.

The only place to hook up the wires between the new main breaker and the loadcenter is the main breaker of the existing panel. If the main breaker of the loadcenter is bad well then.......