The VISES of Garage Journal

[ed4banger]

Ed,

That is a beauty! There has been one on my local offerup for $300 for several months. I made an offer but I think he must not check it. They only made them for those two years?

The 5241 I only see in '35 and '36 catalogs, and the 5222 (same design) only '34. I would buy these all day long for 300, cause they sell at over 600 on ebay.....

 

[Shiftless]

eb4banger:
Those 2 in 1’s are cool. I’d love to find one of those at a good price. At $600 each, the few guys who own one or two of ‘em are patting themselves on the back for picking them up when they could.

CRS:
Thanks a lot for posting that Little Giant catalog page. As I have been saying, there seems to be a complete lack of info on the Little Giants. We can now all assume they were an economy line for Sears. We can put it in the same column as the Companion and Dunlap branded tools.

I will repost the pic of mine (now all cleaned up) that you sent me last month.


.

 

[CRSINMICH]

Twins from different mothers: The only difference is the model number. I bought these two about a year apart back when the gettin' was good.

 

[va.grouseman]

Mr. W, you aught to see about acquiring that rotating Cman.---I've got 4 of them and would like to have 4 more.---I don't know who made them but they are very well put together.---Quite unique.---I suspect they were too expensive to produce vs what they could be sold for, hence, halt production.


4Banger, that is a nice one.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

Are they made out of a unique material or is it the design that made them expensive?

 

[ed4banger]

Mr. W, you aught to see about acquiring that rotating Cman.---I've got 4 of them and would like to have 4 more.---I don't know who made them but they are very well put together.---Quite unique.---I suspect they were too expensive to produce vs what they could be sold for, hence, halt production.


4Banger, that is a nice one.

Rock Island made these vises.

 

[Fierljeppen]

Shiftless and CRSINMICH...Thanks for the "Little Giant" information, it helped me solve an on-going vise puzzle.

I'll add a little more to the story, Rock Island Mfg. (Birtman Electric) was manufacturing most of the vises in the following 1936 advertisement as well as the previously mentioned "Little Giant" vise. I'm very confident in this.

So why wouldn't they be the odds-on favorite to be the manufacturer of the "Craftsman 5241" vise? Sawyer Foundy & Machine Works was the only other domestic mfg. of rotating vises at that time and I strongly doubt the "5241" was imported.

What say you?

 

[ed4banger]

Shiftless and CRSINMICH...Thanks for the "Little Giant" information, it helped me solve an on-going vise puzzle.

I'll add a little more to the story, Rock Island Mfg. (Birtman Electric) was manufacturing most of the vises in the following 1936 as well as the previously mentioned "Little Giant" vise. I'm very confident in this.

So why wouldn't they be the odds-on favorite to be the manufacturer of the "Craftsman 5241" vise? Sawyer Foundy & Machine Works was the only other domestic mfg. of rotating vises at that time and I strongly doubt the "5241" was imported.

What say you?

I'm confident RI made the 5241 and 5222. Rock Island made the Samson vises, they are identical in every way to the Cman branded vises which followed. Its not in doubt that RI was the maker of the other Cman vises of the era, the 5240,5242,5243, 5499, 5502, etc., and the bases, lock nuts, jaws and even the spindle of the 5241/5222 are interchangeable with parts from these other vises. They share a common manufacturer, Rock Island.

 

[gearhead1960]

May hit an Estate Sale tomorrow or Sunday. This vise

is shown in the presale photos. Probably won't be there when I make it, but just in case it is.... anyone know what it is and what a fair price might be for it....

 

[ed4banger]

May hit an Estate Sale tomorrow or Sunday. This vise

is shown in the presale photos. Probably won't be there when I make it, but just in case it is.... anyone know what it is and what a fair price might be for it....

Prentiss model 20, 4-1/2" swivel jaw. Nice, using one as my main go-to right now.

 

[CRSINMICH]

ed4banger, Fierljeppen: I'll throw this one into the Rock Island stew. I've been collecting these little homeowner's type vises by big name manufacturers. I probably shouldn't say that because they are still affordable.

 

[ed4banger]

ed4banger, Fierljeppen: I'll throw this one into the Rock Island stew. I've been collecting these little homeowner's type vises by big name manufacturers. I probably shouldn't say that because they are still affordable.

I like those, same as Cman and Samson. That looks just like the Samson 5207. I have almost all of the little Cman branded homeowner's vises RI made now, still looking for one or two. Some still wearing original paint.

 

[CRSINMICH]

I forgot about this one.

 

[Fierljeppen]

I'm confident RI made the 5241 and 5222. Rock Island made the Samson vises, they are identical in every way to the Cman branded vises which followed. Its not in doubt that RI was the maker of the other Cman vises of the era, the 5240,5242,5243, 5499, 5502, etc., and the bases, lock nuts, jaws and even the spindle of the 5241/5222 are interchangeable with parts from these other vises. They share a common manufacturer, Rock Island.

I'm going to feed off of your confidence and close out another vise puzzle.

 

[va.grouseman]

Did we establish that the 519 Cman series was produced by Rock Island/Birtman Electric also, or is that still speculation?

 

[va.grouseman]

The little Cman double swivler went from $7.95 to $600.00.---A nice return on Granddads initial investment.

 

[Fierljeppen]

Did we establish that the 519 Cman series was produced by Rock Island/Birtman Electric also, or is that still speculation?

I don't think that vise puzzle can be called yet, although the consensus seems to strongly favor the "Rock Island Mfg. Co." (Birtman Electric).

We're just one significant printed periodical away from sealing the deal though.

 

[ed4banger]

I don't think that vise puzzle can be called yet, although the consensus seems to strongly favor the "Rock Island Mfg. Co." (Birtman Electric).



We're just one significant printed periodical away from sealing the deal though.

This puzzle was solved sometime back but folks refuse to believe that Rock Island made the 519x vises.



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[KMScott]

I forgot about this one.

CRS, any spec:s you can add on your 628 RI would be appreciated, up dating the Spreadsheet.

 

[Fierljeppen]

This puzzle was solved sometime back but folks refuse to believe that Rock Island made the 519x vises.

I've never seen one supporting document that supports a relationship between Rock Island Mfg. and the Craftsman 519X series vises. There's been plenty of physical evidence, but no printed document.

If there has been a printed document linking the two companies, please enlighten me, cause I missed it.

 

[Shiftless]

I missed it too. I have 3 of the 519x vises and await the answer.

Curse of oak island? Mystery of vise island?

.

 

[va.grouseman]

Me too Shift.---Sure would like to see something chiseled in stone.---I think the 519s and the rotators are 2 of the nicest designs ever dreamed up.---Took someone with vivid imagination just to draw the design.---I couldn't design a tire to come out round.---Surely there is a poster lurking in the archives somewhere.

 

[PierceA]

Which came first: The Parker 439, 449,474? or the Craftsman Rotators? Both are similar in function, and I think there is another rotator that had a vertical lever on the side to lock the rotation.

I have a 449, and it's a beast. Much heavier duty and heavy than the 474 that breaks the slide support so often.

PierceA

You can see the 449 in with the pile of Parkers.
The second image is of a 474 that has the cracked slide support.. Not mine.

 

[PghJKB]

Rock Island made these vises.

Shiftless and CRSINMICH...Thanks for the "Little Giant" information, it helped me solve an on-going vise puzzle.

I'll add a little more to the story, Rock Island Mfg. (Birtman Electric) was manufacturing most of the vises in the following 1936 advertisement as well as the previously mentioned "Little Giant" vise. I'm very confident in this.

So why wouldn't they be the odds-on favorite to be the manufacturer of the "Craftsman 5241" vise? Sawyer Foundy & Machine Works was the only other domestic mfg. of rotating vises at that time and I strongly doubt the "5241" was imported.

What say you?

Fierljeppen
I stood with you on the Sawyer / Fulton NuTyp) theory as the manufacturer. With a slight twist. So now I stand alone on this.

NuTyp was still in business at least until 1935 when they filed for bankruptcy. Here is the text of that notice:

1935 Bankruptcy Notice:

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT for the Northern District of New York in the Matter of International NuTyp Tool Corporation, Bankrupt.
To the creditors of the International NuTyp Tool Corporation, of the City of Oswego, County of Oswego and District aforesaid, a Bankruptcy.
NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that on the 23rd day of January 1935 the said International NuTyp Tool Corporation was ???? adjudicated as bankrupt and that the first meeting and hearing of its creditors will be held at the office of Avery H. Wright referee in Bankruptcy Room 3, Oswego City Savings Bank Building, Oswego N.Y. on the 14th day of March, 1935 at 10 o'clock A.M. at which time the said creditors ??? attend, prove their claims, approve a Trustee, examine the bankrupt and transact such other business as may properly come before said meeting.
NOTICE IS ALSO GIVEN that you and each of you are hereby required to show cause at the time and place heretofore mentioned why the business of the above named bankrupt corporation should not be continued under the Trustee hereinafter to be named.
Dated at Oswego, N. Y. this ?? day of March, 1935.
AVERY H. WRIGHT
Referee in Bankruptcy
???????

Here is the image of the filing:

Here is some other, less reliable information:
1936 Electrical World
Lists NuTyp: International Nutyp Tool Corp, 68 W. First St.. Oswego. N. Y. as vise manufacturer

1937 1 Jan 1937
http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.northam.usa.states.newyork.counties.oswego/1609/mb.ashx?pnt=1
Woman employed by International NuTyp in Oswego

1944 Aviation Equipment Red Book
Lists NuTyp of Oswego

1950 Hardware Age - Volume 166, Issues 1-2 - Page 1044
Lists International NuTyp Tool of Oswego

I believe that Sawyer purchased NuTyp's assets from bankruptcy court.

Getting back to the point:
1932 6 Dec Fulton received Patent 1,890,114 for Addition of a Third Jaw Set, to his previous NuTyp patent.

Image of the drawing:

The Craftsman rotators have this third jaw. Which means they are using this patent. NuTyp did not "go out of business" until 1935 - the same year that Craftsman vise was apparently discontinued. NuTyp goes belly up and Craftsman catalog drops the vise, hmmm.

Other than physical resemblance(imitation is the sincerest form of flattery), what are the arguments for Rhode Island?

JKB

Seems I still stand alone on the CMan 519x as well.

 

[ed4banger]

Fierljeppen


The Craftsman rotators have this third jaw. Which means they are using this patent. NuTyp did not "go out of business" until 1935 - the same year that Craftsman vise was apparently discontinued. NuTyp goes belly up and Craftsman catalog drops the vise, hmmm.

Craftsman did not drop the rotator in 1935. It appears in the 1941 catalogs as well......

 

[Fierljeppen]

Fierljeppen
I stood with you on the Sawyer / Fulton NuTyp) theory as the manufacturer. With a slight twist. So now I stand alone on this.

NuTyp was still in business at least until 1935 when they filed for bankruptcy.

I believe that Sawyer purchased NuTyp's assets from bankruptcy court.

1932 6 Dec Fulton received Patent 1,890,114 for Addition of a Third Jaw Set, to his previous NuTyp patent.

The Craftsman rotators have this third jaw. Which means they are using this patent. NuTyp did not "go out of business" until 1935 - the same year that Craftsman vise was apparently discontinued. NuTyp goes belly up and Craftsman catalog drops the vise, hmmm.

Other than physical resemblance(imitation is the sincerest form of flattery), what are the arguments for Rock Island?

JKB

Seems I still stand alone on the CMan 519x as well.

PghJKB...Fair point on your Craftsman rotator vise theory. The only printed documentation I have associating the Craftsman rotator with the Rock Island Mfg. Co. is the 1936 ad that I provided above. It's basis is, if almost all of the other vises in the ad are RIMCO vises, then why not the rotator vise?

It's a weak argument, I agree. It is possible Craftsman had a deal with the struggling International Nutyp Co., which carried over with new owners, Sawyer Foundry & Machine works, but that's pure speculation at this point.

As far as you standing alone on the Craftsman 519x, where would that be? It must be someone different than the Rock Island Mfg. Co. Is it Japan? Thanks for chiming in as always!

For those of you that think some of us are taking this vise stuff way too seriously...no we're not.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I snagged another Charles Parker swivel base adjusting nut wrench out of a pile o' wrenches at the flea market this morning. This one is a No. 1. Based on its length, and a catalog page Smitty posted last year, it looks like these went with the No. 492-1/2, at least. The hex opening is 5/8".

The No. 2 has a 13/16" opening, and I believe it mates with the lock-down nuts on a No. 973-1/2 and a No. 484-1/2, again, at least.

Does anyone know if there a longer Vise Wrench No. 3 to look for in the wild? Or a No. 4? Etc. Ostensibly, following the pattern, for larger vises with larger lock-down nuts?

 

[PghJKB]

PghJKB...Fair point on your Craftsman rotator vise theory. The only printed documentation I have associating the Craftsman rotator with the Rock Island Mfg. Co. is the 1936 ad that I provided above. It's basis is, if almost all of the other vises in the ad are RIMCO vises, then why not the rotator vise?

It's a weak argument, I agree. It is possible Craftsman had a deal with the struggling International Nutyp Co., which carried over with new owners, Sawyer Foundry & Machine works, but that's pure speculation at this point.

As far as you standing alone on the Craftsman 519x, where would that be? It must be someone different than the Rock Island Mfg. Co. Is it Japan? Thanks for chiming in as always!

For those of you that think some of us are taking this vise stuff way too seriously...no we're not.

Fierljeppen

My 519x theory (fleshed out a bit from a previous post- but not completely explained here)
The 519x series is a result of someone at Sears growing a pair and designing their own vise. Athol/Reed base, Reed like nut adjusment Rock Islandish profile.

Being so close to the end of WW2 Sears could not find a vise-maker that could accommodate them. Hence they ended up manufacturing a "Frankenvise".

The vise's distinctive shape was a bit much for our recovering industries. No US manufacturer was able to provide the casting so they a stings. turned to Japan.

Japan, while also recovering from the war, had a history of outstanding metal working. It would have been relatively easy for the Japanese to supply raw castings. (I have flasks and green sand in my backyard). The machining, at this point, I think, was a bridge too far.

The castings from Japan (with no Country Of Origin markings) where sent to Rock Island for finishing - broaching the tunnel, machining the jaw seats and slide, finishing the base... . The result, a designed in USA, cast in Japan, assembled in USA vise.

ed4banger
This is the catalog page from my copy of the Craftsman 1941 catalog showing vises:
It works out to page 37. The catalog is titled "Craftsman 1941 Models" and looks to be their Power Tools Edition although not specifically labelled Power Tools as in other years.

Neither my 1938 or 1939 Craftsman catalog show rotators.

JKB

 

[Shiftless]

Pgh:
That is a very interesting and certainly possible hypothesis. The mystery continues...

I’ll remind everyone that there were quite a few lesser vises that Sears sold that were clearly made in Japan and marked as such. The 391. series for example comes to mind.
If I remember correctly, they were marked on the underside of the swivel base with JAPAN and also BF which was the foundry mark of Daido in Japan.

 

[rusty65]

Personally I think that Rock island is the maker of the rotating head vise in question. Smitty has proven that the 5242 style of home owner vise share the same base as the 5241. I personally own a 5242 and I say without a question RI made that model. The swivel base uses notches with a stud for the swivel lock which is mid 30s early 40s rock island swivel base design. This base was also used on the Dunlap rebrand Sears sold machinist vises. I believe nearly all Sears vises pre ww2 are rock island rebrand.
My next question is there a Samson vise that’s not a rebranded Rock island?





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[ed4banger]

Fierljeppen

My 519x theory (fleshed out a bit from a previous post- but not completely explained here)
The 519x series is a result of someone at Sears growing a pair and designing their own vise. Athol/Reed base, Reed like nut adjusment Rock Islandish profile.

Being so close to the end of WW2 Sears could not find a vise-maker that could accommodate them. Hence they ended up manufacturing a "Frankenvise".


ed4banger
This is the catalog page from my copy of the Craftsman 1941 catalog showing vises:
It works out to page 37. The catalog is titled "Craftsman 1941 Models" and looks to be their Power Tools Edition although not specifically labelled Power Tools as in other years.

Neither my 1938 or 1939 Craftsman catalog show rotators.

JKB

I cannot agree with you that Sears could not find a vise maker during this time. I think you are relying with what is pictured in the catalogs as basis for this, but what is not shown in the catalogs is the complete line of Rock Island 515x and 516x vises that were being sold at this exact same moment in time by Sears. I have several of these and have seen several more. So the truth is they were in business with Rock Island during the 519x run of vises, which ended their run by the way pretty much the exact time that RI went out of business. One other thing I'd like to throw out there, is common parts used by Rock Island in all their 515x, 516x and yes 519x vises. I routinely tear these down completely when I re-do one, and that includes removing the handle. all of these models have a part in common which I've pictured here, a small leaf spring in the spindle which presses against the handle to prevent it from freely sliding.

 

[Andy FitzGibbon]

Fierljeppen



My 519x theory (fleshed out a bit from a previous post- but not completely explained here)

The 519x series is a result of someone at Sears growing a pair and designing their own vise. Athol/Reed base, Reed like nut adjusment Rock Islandish profile.



Being so close to the end of WW2 Sears could not find a vise-maker that could accommodate them. Hence they ended up manufacturing a "Frankenvise".



The vise's distinctive shape was a bit much for our recovering industries. No US manufacturer was able to provide the casting so they a stings. turned to Japan.



Japan, while also recovering from the war, had a history of outstanding metal working. It would have been relatively easy for the Japanese to supply raw castings. (I have flasks and green sand in my backyard). The machining, at this point, I think, was a bridge too far.



The castings from Japan (with no Country Of Origin markings) where sent to Rock Island for finishing - broaching the tunnel, machining the jaw seats and slide, finishing the base... . The result, a designed in USA, cast in Japan, assembled in USA vise.



ed4banger

This is the catalog page from my copy of the Craftsman 1941 catalog showing vises:

It works out to page 37. The catalog is titled "Craftsman 1941 Models" and looks to be their Power Tools Edition although not specifically labelled Power Tools as in other years.

Neither my 1938 or 1939 Craftsman catalog show rotators.



JKB

The Allied (mostly American) occupation of Japan lasted until 1952. One of the goals during that time was the "industrial disarmament" of Japan, which put limits any industry that could be used for military production... ball bearings, machine tools, ect. Of course, once the occupation ended, and the Soviet Union started to gain traction in Europe, the Americans were suddenly very interested in re-arming Japan and having them as an ally...

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Fierljeppen]

I snagged another Charles Parker swivel base adjusting nut wrench out of a pile o' wrenches at the flea market this morning. This one is a No. 1. Based on its length, and a catalog page Smitty posted last year, it looks like these went with the No. 492-1/2, at least. The hex opening is 5/8".

The No. 2 has a 13/16" opening, and I believe it mates with the lock-down nuts on a No. 973-1/2 and a No. 484-1/2, again, at least.

Does anyone know if there a longer Vise Wrench No. 3 to look for in the wild? Or a No. 4? Etc. Ostensibly, following the pattern, for larger vises with larger lock-down nuts?

I know there's a no.3 wrench and I've attached the specs on my no.4 Parker wrench that goes with my Parker no.978 vise.

Vise on!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks, F.

 

[Nopd9494]

Some of my collection. Man I love redoing these old vises and grinders

 

[CRSINMICH]

This might muddy the waters in the discussion of Craftsman/Rock Island and whatever else might have come up. Here are three pages of Morgan vise ads. They are all the same basic type of vise but different from each other. There can be little doubt that Morgan made all three. The first two are very common shapes that you may recognize. For instance, look at the raised diamond on the first one. Littlestown's vises all have that. The third vise may have solved a riddle I've wondered about. It is the same distinctive shape as the Jordan Special in the fourth picture. Trying to find out who made Jordan, I discovered that there are several other vises with that same odd shape. All Morgan made?

My point is that the shape of the vise can be helpful in identification but, it is not sufficient on its own and could be misleading.

It's a fun process though; one which I enjoy. That's all I'm going to say about that.

 

[PierceA]

Lugz: There are Parker vise wrenches #1 through #4. I can remove all four and line them up if you want an image like that?

For me, I look for the box-end 6point and the recessed name / lettering area down the middle of the handle.. All of mine have information on both sides.. One side will say Vise Wrench No. 1 or x.. The other side will say Charles Parker Manufacturing Co.. [I think, I don't have a wrench in front of me]. But there is little doubt about what they are for.

Even with a huge amount of heavy paint obscuring the lettering, the single end box 6 point is a giveaway..

All the wrenches fit loose.. so that they are not a wrestling match to get up off the hex and turned then back down on the hex bolt head.. The 5/8" No. 1 you have actually fits a 9/16 hex on my Parker 200-2. A No. 2 fits a 3/4" hex. The No.3 fits a 7/8" hex and the Number 4, the grand-daddy fits a 1-1/16" hex on my Parker 976 and 978.

Since you seem to get a LOT of old tools to look at. Do you very often see single end box end 6point wrenches? I think they area rather proprietary for specific tools.. ??

Take care.
PierceA

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Lugz: There are Parker vise wrenches #1 through #4. I can remove all four and line them up if you want an image like that?

Thanks. A photo will not be necessary. By inference (bigger swivel base vises would required bigger swivel base adjustment nuts and wrenches...), I suspected correctly that at least a No. 3 and a No. 4 existed, which Fierljeppen confirmed, and you helpfully re-confirmed, and I assumed they would look and be marked exactly the same as the No. 1 and the No. 2 that I own, just bigger, with their own model numbers. I also own a few vies with similar handles, and yes, I agree, the opening sizes are purposefully "nominal."

Since you seem to get a LOT of old tools to look at. Do you very often see single end box end 6point wrenches? I think they area rather proprietary for specific tools.. ??

I do see SBE and SOE wrenches quite often here in an old industrial state, I pick them up when they're interesting, I have a healthy collection, and they are indeed almost always tappers or tool post or some other kind of adjustment making wrench for "specific tools", especially textile, manufacturing, or metal working machinery (e.g., Leland-Gifford, American Screw Machine, Kelly Press, R&L, Peoria Rubber, etc).

 

[va.grouseman]

Rusty, that is 1 clean looking Dunlap you have there.---About the nicest one I've seen.

 

[va.grouseman]

There was 1 vise made in Japan for Craftsman, but I'm not sure of the year of production.

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