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Frozen PCV valve

My Old Tools

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Had an issue with the Mitsubishi 2.4L 4 cylinder in my Generac on the day we dropped below zero. It's running propane. The PCV valve collected condensation and froze, which caused excessive crankcase pressure and caused the oil to pump out the dipstick. I see from Google that a number of cars experience this in freezing weather. Any tips on curing the problem? Fortunately this unit has a low oil cut off.
 
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rlitman

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That's a new one on me. I thought that usually the carb ices up first. Sounds like a real mess. Hope you have extra oil on hand (something anyone owning a generator should have).

Where did that condensation come from? The engine should be warmer than ambient air, so it sounds like your crank case had a lot of moisture in it. My thought is that an oil change may drain all the moisture out, and you might not have this issue return. And in the future, whatever your exercise run-time is, is too short to burn off moisture in your crank case.
 
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My Old Tools

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Could be. The carb sits higher than the engine and off to the side a bit. I don't think it ever gets very warm at all. The line from the PCV runs up hill and away from the block so it stays pretty cold too. But, you may be correct that the oil had excessive moisture. After it pumped most of it out and shutdown, I cleaned the PCV with carb spray, refilled it and it did it again, so I'm not sure that is the answer. It has never happened in our "normal" cold weather. I've never seen sub-zero in my life until Tuesday when it was -8 at 6:00am. I know propane generates moisture when you burn it. I was suspecting that was the culprit. The self test runs 15 minutes once a week. A local Generac repairman said he has worked a few this week with the same issue. Clean the PCV and new oil and off you go. I think I'll do a Seafoam run and oil change next week.
 

rlitman

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Could be. The carb sits higher than the engine and off to the side a bit. I don't think it ever gets very warm at all. The line from the PCV runs up hill and away from the block so it stays pretty cold too. But, you may be correct that the oil had excessive moisture. After it pumped most of it out and shutdown, I cleaned the PCV with carb spray, refilled it and it did it again, so I'm not sure that is the answer. It has never happened in our "normal" cold weather. I've never seen sub-zero in my life until Tuesday when it was -8 at 6:00am. I know propane generates moisture when you burn it. I was suspecting that was the culprit. The self test runs 15 minutes once a week. A local Generac repairman said he has worked a few this week with the same issue. Clean the PCV and new oil and off you go. I think I'll do a Seafoam run and oil change next week.

All combustion generates water. Propane does make a lot, but not all that much more than gasoline. NG makes even more.

As I see it, the PCV is under manifold vacuum, so air should be flowing from the crankcase into the intake, and not the other way. Blowby gasses that get into the crankcase would bring water in, but you shouldn't have a lot of volume of that, and once the engine is warm, there should be none (unless you have bigger issues). Which means that exhaust water is not the likely source.

Water naturally gets into the crankcase through moisture laden air and collects via condensation. This small amount is supposed to be evaporated off when you get the engine hot, but that example car that was driven by the little old lady to church only on Sundays and never got the oil above 212F, is a situation where condensation will build up in the crank case over time to the point that it becomes a problem. This is common on generators that are exercised for too short a cycle. Particularly because most generator exercise cycles are done at idle. I think you'd be better off with 30 minutes every other week, as opposed to 15 minutes each week, but talk that through with your service guy. I'm sure they're learning about cold too. Most generators have winter kits available, and I know Generac does, but as I've learned, even those are not without flaws.

I wouldn't bother with the Seafoam. Your actual time spend running under load will dry out everything as well as anything could. Just change the oil based on the manufacturer's suggested change interval now, now that you have new oil in it.

And keep an eye on the carb! Carburetors naturally get chilled to lower than ambient temperatures by the air expanding in them, so they need to be heated when in freezing conditions. A common and simple system used is to have a chimney pipe that leads down to the exhaust manifold and up to the carb. Cool air is warmed by the manifold and heads up to gently warm the carb.
 
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matt_i

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You have to run it at a higher load or enclose it to create an artificially warm ambient. Cautions about boxing in the exhaust as its also laden with water. Just don't let the air cooling of the engine happen as efficiently.

Propane is amazingly efficient at creating water vapor in the combustion byproducts (exhaust) but cold metal condenses it very easily into the oil side of an IC engine. That's also what we value when running things like propane forklifts indoors and not asphyxiating on the CO. The small molecule hydrocarbon reacts completely unlike the longer chains in gasoline.
 
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My Old Tools

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Thanks for the discussion. I noticed each time I pulled the PCV that the line was full of water, and oil "cheese". I wonder about adding a breather to the system somewhere for those rare times that it gets clogged, just to prevent the oil pump out.
 

matt_i

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In desperation if you can block the vacuum side of the PCV circuit and vent the pressure side it will help.

The PCV circuit is a parallel "leak path" around the throttle blade. The spring & pintle just tries to equalize the flow across the full range of intake vacuum.

What you don't want is a wide open path of unmetered air into the intake manifold downstream of the throttle blade because your air fuel ratios suffer to the lean side which is a slippery slope of rough running and low power.
 

rlitman

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Thanks for the discussion. I noticed each time I pulled the PCV that the line was full of water, and oil "cheese". I wonder about adding a breather to the system somewhere for those rare times that it gets clogged, just to prevent the oil pump out.

Yeah, that mayonnaise is a sure sign of water in the crank case. In a water cooled engine, it could be a sign of a head gasket failure, but I'm still betting on your short exercise cycle. 15 minutes is probably sufficient in warm weather, but not in the cold.

At my work, we cycle the diesels for a little over 30 minutes a week, though even in the dead of winter they're starting warm, since we run block heaters 24x7x365.

In your case, switching to a longer exercise cycle (perhaps less frequently than once a week to save fuel; unless there's some compelling reason you need it weekly, monthly is probably just as good), and using a synthetic oil (for better winter starting), should be sufficient.

Don't worry about future PCV clogging. Worry about preventing the water from building up in the first place, because that's more likely to cause you long-term issues.

edit:
Is there a heat shield between the carb and the engine? Usually you want the carb running as cool as possible, but radiant heat from the engine might also be all you need to prevent carb freezing in the winter.
 
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My Old Tools

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Don't see a heat shield. The carb is pretty far off the block in the propane configuration. It sits up high behind the radiator. Fan pulls air out of the cabinet, so it is running pretty cold right now.

The factory self test is preset to 12 minutes. It also allows for half speed tests. I'll have to check and see which way mine is set. In the winter, I'll need to run it full speed for 30 minutes once a month to heat it up. Hopefully this will prevent future problems. It has been trouble free for years before this week.
 
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rlitman

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I think the half speed test is for noise purposes. For warmup, a load would be ideal, but I understand how that's not always so easy. Still, if you could plug in a space heater inside the cabinet for the tests, that could serve double duty.

As for the carb, the fan may be enough. Even ambient air, cold as it is, may provide sufficient carb heating, so long as there's good flow over it, and being near the radiator, the air reaching the carb will be warmed a little as well. It doesn't take much. The issue is that in still air, the carb will just get colder and colder until it collects frost.

Oh, and if you're looking for signs of "oil mayo" to know if you're not getting the engine warm enough, its often easier to find it on the underside of the oil cap. I'd expect it to show up there around the same time as the PCV.
 

Firebrick43

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2.4L mitsubishis where fairly well know to have head gasket issues.

Other wise an engine producing lots of moisture in the oil/pcv (and not loosing coolant) is a sign of intake manifold gasket failure. 5.2 magnums had this as one of their few vices as did the 4.7L v8 as well.
 

jimindm

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Most building back up generators around here run an hour a week.

If it is liquid cooled, you might be able to install some kind of coolant flow around the components in question. Something as simple as soft copper if you could figure out a way for it to flow.
 

Showkey

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In automotive applications the PCV line has been need for many to solve this issue.
Oil catch can in the PCV Line can help but can actually make the problem WORSE as it catches the oil/water/condensation and the can gets cold/frozen quicker.

The oil Mayo thing is very common and the vast majority is just condensation........this jump to head gasket is premature especially if it’s not overheating, white smoke, exhaust smells sweet and coolant level is constant.

You may actually be lucky you caught the oil leak blow seal quickly ..........when a vehicle does this 4 qts can be on the ground in minutes and the engine seized in the next minute.
 

AP514

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I did see your Problem on UTUBE sometime back..the guy had a fix for it...I would search UTUBE and see if you trouble comes up
 
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My Old Tools

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In automotive applications the PCV line has been need for many to solve this issue.
Oil catch can in the PCV Line can help but can actually make the problem WORSE as it catches the oil/water/condensation and the can gets cold/frozen quicker.

The oil Mayo thing is very common and the vast majority is just condensation........this jump to head gasket is premature especially if it’s not overheating, white smoke, exhaust smells sweet and coolant level is constant.

You may actually be lucky you caught the oil leak blow seal quickly ..........when a vehicle does this 4 qts can be on the ground in minutes and the engine seized in the next minute.

The luck was Generac has a low oil pressure cut off. That saved the engine. No coolant loss, no abnormal exhaust, no abnormal noise from the engine thank goodness. I think it was the colder than normal weather (-8 that morning, new record) and short test runs in cold weather.
 
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