ugh! what should I do, running power

[xscorex]

ok you might have read my thread about the fence guy cutting my line. well, I dont know what happened but i thought the line had been cut because I went into the house flipped all the breakers off, then flipped them back on. Nothing. flipped all the breakers at the box on the garage, got nothing. So a week later Im putting some gfci outlets in the house and I turn everything off and its off for like 30 minutes. when I turn it back on I have power in my garage! wtf. Still have power. i have no idea what happened. anyway.

now my problem, the box on my garage is small, looks like 6 slots or so. I had a shade tree guy come over and install a 220v. well, he took out a breaker & we installed a new double hammer 15w on each hammer. then ran the 220 to that. that made 2/3 of the 3 outlets I had in my shop stop working because we had to disconnect them . now the 220 doesnt work. I dont know what he did, Im assuming its because he didnt know what he was doing. Anyway. could I go buy a bigger box and run the same line from the house ( the home inspector said the box on the house was maxed out with the lines per breaker as it was) or do I get the power company to run a different line to my garage, then put a bigger box on it?

 

[xscorex]

ok heres the little box going into the garage. When i bought the house we wanted the guy to upgrade the box in the house as we were told too many circuits or lines or whatever were on each breaker. but they got a licensed electrician to say it was ok. So I guess its ok, just basically maxed out. if this is running from the house to the garage, am I maxed out? or am I able to just upgrade the box on the garage? I hope Im making sense, I know nothing about electricity

 

[Stuart in MN]

Power mysteriously coming and going after you flip the breakers on and off sounds like a loose connection somewhere. It could be somewhere in the new stuff that was added, it could even be out at the power pole on the utility side.

 

[xscorex]

well It hasnt gone. but what happened was, I moved into the house. The same day I moved in the fence guy came and put up a fence. I didnt even go out into the garage until the next day and i had no pwer. On the walkthrough before signing at closing I thought the garage had power. So I just assumed the fence guy cut it as his poles looked like they were very close to where the underground power would be. I guess he didnt. weird. No problems since though. not sure what to think

 

[mrb]

sounds like you have some odd problems which might take a pro to troubleshoot. I would get a pro out there to take a look.

whats a double hammer 15w ?

 

[Red05GT]

I would get a professional electrician to check everything out. With a possible loose
connection, arcing could cause a major problem. Not worth risking it or letting a
shade tree guy contribute to burning your house down.

 

[sberry]

Not only that converting a 120 line to 240 is a no-no, you need 3 wires plus a ground.

 

[xscorex]

ok I guess I need to hire someone. In my box I had one free space with no breaker, then I had another with a 30 watt 1 hammer breaker , by hammer i mean switch, I dont know the correct terminology. so we bought a 2 hammer breaker that ran 15att on each handle, it then took the 2 110 lines and ran out into a 220v. I hope that makes sense. I just went to lowes and bought a " complete guide to wiring" book. Hopefully this will help me clear up some questions I have. Anyone have any suggestions on good books or sites basically a dummies guuide to wiring?

 

[LoneGunman]

I'm not trying to be an azz, it would be a lot easier for us to help you if you use the right terminology and keep "shadetree" hacks out of your panel. A "hammer" is a "pole", one is a single pole, two is a two pole. You are using wattage instead of amperage when describing your breakers.

Do you have a meter? It sounds to me that the guy who ran your 220v line may have both of the wires on the same phase, which will not give you 220v. In a panel you have two hots coming in, each one feeds alternating breakers. If he tried to use a tandem breaker, which is a breaker that takes up one slot but gives you two breakers instead of one, he could have put the two "hots" of the 220v line on that breaker, if you measured each one to ground you'd read 120v, if you measured hot to hot you'd read zero because they are on the same phase.

When you use tandem breakers in a panel to make room for a 240v line you want to put 120v circuits on the tandem and put your 240v line on a two pole breaker.

It would help us help you if you took a pic of the panel with the cover open and try to point out what he did.

 

[xscorex]

I'm not trying to be an azz, it would be a lot easier for us to help you if you use the right terminology and keep "shadetree" hacks out of your panel. A "hammer" is a "pole", one is a single pole, two is a two pole. You are using wattage instead of amperage when describing your breakers.

Do you have a meter? It sounds to me that the guy who ran your 220v line may have both of the wires on the same phase, which will not give you 220v. In a panel you have two hots coming in, each one feeds alternating breakers. If he tried to use a tandem breaker, which is a breaker that takes up one slot but gives you two breakers instead of one, he could have put the two "hots" of the 220v line on that breaker, if you measured each one to ground you'd read 120v, if you measured hot to hot you'd read zero because they are on the same phase.

When you use tandem breakers in a panel to make room for a 240v line you want to put 120v circuits on the tandem and put your 240v line on a two pole breaker.

It would help us help you if you took a pic of the panel with the cover open and try to point out what he did.

you sir are a genius. This is exactly what happened I bet. I do have a multi meter, Ill check it out to make sure but i remember him testing it and saying, "well we have power here and power here, but not power here."

its been a week or so but I finally got around to plugging my welder in and I got nothing. Ill get a picture tonight and post. Im sure its a very easy fix. so are you saying we have the wrong kind of breaker probably or that its just wired to the breaker wrong?

 

[LoneGunman]

The welder has to be wired to a breaker that takes up TWO spots, if it's wired to a breaker that has two small handles but only takes one spot it will not work. It would be fine if they 120v circuits.

 

[xscorex]

ok I finally have the picture in my head. now I do know we took out one breaker then there was one empty slot, now the box is filled to capacity. so Im going to assume its one breaker that takes up two slots with two poles on it. I'll take a picture when I get back tonight and post just to make sure

 

[LoneGunman]

If that's the case you'll need another tandem breaker and a 2 pole breaker at whatever amperage you require, depending on wire size. ONLY 120v circuits can go on them, you'll then have room for the proper 2 pole 240v breaker.

 

[Costner]

Not only that converting a 120 line to 240 is a no-no, you need 3 wires plus a ground.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you here. Not that the OP said he actually converted a line, but if he had it isn't an issue if the wire is the proper size for the load.

For instance if he wanted to use a 12-2 line for a 240V 3000W garage heater on a 30Amp breaker it would be fine, so it is just a matter of converting the neautral of a 120V circuit to a hot line of a 240V circuit (and marking both ends of the wire to indicate the white wire is now a hot wire).

As to having 3 wires plus a ground the only time you need that is if you are working with an electric range or dryer etc that needs both 120 and 240V. On a normal 240V circuit, there are two hot wires in opposing phases and one ground - thus you only needa total of three wires and not four.

 

[mhm993]

^^^
What he said.

 

[sberry]

This line runs to a garage, so I would bet money there are 120 v recepts and lights. I kind of get the idea Mr shady was trying to convert this to a 240 supply using the ground as a N since we only have one feed here, I agree that to run a 240V appliance you could use the wire but it sounds like this wire is feeding a panel and other 120 equipment in this garage????

the box on my garage is small, looks like 6 slots or so. I had a shade tree guy come over and install a 220v. well, he took out a breaker & we installed a new double hammer 15w on each hammer. then ran the 220 to that.

Does this sound like part of this scenario, fiasco? This guy needs a new wire, 10/3 wg minimum fed with a double pole breaker at the main vs wtf he has now.

 

[dan76]

This box looks way too low to the ground to me. In the places I've lived, an average snowstorm would bury the box.

 

[Red05GT]

The size of that conduit tells me it's probably fed with a 12/2 or 10/2, certainly not
large enough to run a 220 welder and everything else you'll want in your garage. Time
to upgrade.

 

[xscorex]

thanks for your help guys, I think Im gonna have the power company put me a direct line in. It started acting weird today when I was in the garage. I walked outside, walked back in & the lights had gone. so I look at the panel outside the garage, nothing, then I go into the house and reset the breakers, walk back outside and now it has power again. I did notice that i didnt lose total power just the line running to the lights. I did a trace, I have 6 120 slots, it looks like 5 of them are taken each one having one plug or recepticle. This is getting too hinky for me, Im gonna bite the bullet and pay someone to come in & wire it up safe for me. the old man had all kinds of weird stuff, like flourescents with the ground prong broken off plugged into some crazy strip which I guess is a power strip from 1965 it just looks like a bar with 2 slats running down it & a plug on the end. all this was up in the celing. What should I pay a competent electrician to wire a 25 x 25 garage, 3 outlets on 3 walls, and lights and one or two 220s? plus the upgraded box & all of that. thanks again! oh the garage is unfinished so no crazy running wire through walls.

 

[xscorex]

now it gets even weirder. so I walk out this morning, now lights are out as well as all of the outlets. box outside isnt tripped. go into the house, looks like a breaker is somehow shared with other circuits in the house? wtf, so flip it, it immedietly trips, do it again, trips again. then I notice the wife and kids leave so all the curling irons & whatever they are using is turned off, i flip it again, look outside, lights & outlets! oh man, now im scared to call the electrician for what its gonna cost,

 

[BigE]

Don't be scared of what it's going to cost. Be scared of what it could do to your house!

 

[Worsedog]

Don't be scared of what it's going to cost. Be scared of what it could do to your house!

Exactly. Call a pro before you end up calling the fire department.

 

[bradleys]

xscorex,

A licensed electrician will certainly charge more than "0", but will also know what he's doing.

I've been very pleased with the electrician doing my initial wiring on my shop. The $65 per hour seems like a lot until I figure out how much he gets done in that hour.

There are a lot of little choices he makes automatically that I would have to sit and figure out, or look in the NEC code (and probably not chose the correct citation.)

Not to put too much pressure on the electrician you hire, but he may walk in, verify your symptoms, and quickly know what needs to be fixed.

 

[xscorex]

Ok I had an electrician out yesterday afternoon. Im glad i called him. first problem, my house was built in 1961, it has 23 circuits running on something like 10 breakers. there were connections on the ground strip in the box with 3 wires under 1 screw. He quoted me $650 to upgrade that box. Now what makes me crazy is the home inspector said that the box needed to be upgraded, when we closed they had a letter from a licensed electrician stating that the box was within code and they fixed a few minor things like routing wires. no way this box is within code I looked at the inside and with the very basic knowledge i have from books & the web it looked sketchy to me. The electrician i had was amazed it hadnt been upgraded as it had 4 new circuits running into that looked to be a year or two old.

2nd. he turned off all the breakers at the sub box in the garage and then flipped the breakers in the house, they still tripped, which tells us there is a short between the house main panel and the sub box in the garage. He quoted me $500 to run a new wire (appx. 60 feet) or $250 to troubleshoot and fix if he can. If he cant he would charge me an extra $300 to run a new wire.

He said the inside of the garage looked good and nothing was wrong or looked wrong. He said he would charge me $100 to consolidate some of the circuits as they had 1 circuit per plug in the garage for some reason.

what do you guys think? good deal? bad deal? this is about what I thought it would cost.

 

[Red05GT]

If he's a licensed electrician, good deal. What size new line to garage? Reuse sub-panel
in garage?

 

[xscorex]

while looking at the line to the garage, he said they had run a 40 amp to it. he said that was a good idea and i could run whatever i wanted on that. I told him I needed a 220 for a welder and maybe another for an air conditioner down the road. He said that shouldnt be a problem. Not sure I have 7 or maybe 8 slots on the sub box now. should i go ahead & upgrade that one too? Im quickly running out of money

 

[sberry]

You did the right thing, a lot of guessing was going on.

 

[premierplayer]

good move, hire him

sounds knowledgable and competitive

 

[bradleys]

Sounds like a good deal to me. If you're short on money, only do the safety stuff now. You can always do the upgrades later. My electrician was happy to split my too-expensive project into two pieces - one for now (new power service, lights, outlets), and one for later (welder/compressor wiring).

Don't forget to verify his license. http://lookup.ncbeec.org/ (NC State Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors Online Verifications web site).

 

[Red05GT]

Curious what size wire feeds the garage sub-panel. The picture shown earlier with the
disconnect box only looked like 3/4 inch conduit. Most 220 welders are on a 30-50 amp
breaker by themselves. I agree with bradleys about splitting the work up to keep cost
down and get the safety issues addressed first and foremost.

 

[SportFury59]

Maybe the fence guy did nick the underground wiring. Could be wrong but maybe the wiring going from house to garage is not inside conduit, just outdoor wiring buried. That's the way they did it years ago.

If you have to put new wiring and conduit between house and garage maybe do it yourself with electricians advice and save some bucks. While you're at it throw another line of conduit in the trench for future telephone, tv cable, etc. Conduits cheap. Recently I helped a friend dig a trench between house & garage for gas line and electric wiring. He saved some $.

 

[xscorex]

thanks guys, did his search on the linnk provided, he is licensed, i actually saw an ad on craigslist, then did a google search on the phone number which showed me this service magic page http://www.servicemagic.com/rated.WalkerElectricand.13188143.html

looks like lots of good reviews, guy showed up on time, was nice and seemed cool, explained everything to me, didnt seem shifty or shady which is how i picture most contractors after watching so many episodes of Holmes on homes. Gonna have him come in on saturday, do the panel and then wait a week or so to have him fix the garage. Freakin kills me as the main reason i chose this house was the palatial garage. Now I cant even do anything in it becuase it has no power.

another thing, I had contacted the power company about runing a new service directly to the garage. If he charges me $300 to $500 to run it from the house, Im not sure what the power company will charge me to run it straight to the garage but then i would have unlimited options. Maybe I could pay the electrician to use the old box from the house and set it up in the garage, then I would never have to worry about upgrading. Still waiting on the power company to get back to me

 

[bradleys]

xscorex,

I have recent experience on installing new service. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) connected a new service to my garage less than twenty four hours ago. They ran about 120 feet of 350 MCM aluminum cable for a new 200 amp underground service. The charge from PSE will be just under $1000. That amount does not include the undergound conduit, the meter base, and wiring to the main panel, which is provided by my electrician. There's a two foot deep ditch to run everything. The electrician and trenching charges are part of a larger project, but I expect that they add another $1000, for a total of about $2000.

Your mileage may definitely vary here, because I don't know what your code requires. And, I've read posts from other folks in the past that their power company won't allow a second service. Hopefully your power company is more reasonable.

 

[xscorex]

not sure but there is a pole in my backyard that runs power to my house and my neighbors, I would assume it would not be underground and would nt have the costs associated with digging a trench and burying it. I would say 50 or 60 feet run from the power / light pole in the backyard to the garage, but if its anywhere close to 1k then its way out of my budget.

 

[bimmer1980]

good move on getting the electrician in there......

be sure to check that the power company would actually run a separate service to the garage. Many of them will not... it varies.

I would definitely look at upgrading the size of the circuit going to the garage. I had a 40amp service in my old garage and it would barely run the old lincoln stick welder. I can remember tripping the breaker so many times in a row that it would be too hot to touch! (this was when I was a teenager....)

If you can get it, I would recommend getting a 200amp panel installed in the house. this may require upgrading the meter and the service entrance, but you will thank yourself later.... it would also allow an nice 60 or 100amp subpanel out in the garage....

I also recommend asking the electrician if you can be his grunt labor for the day. at least for digging the trench, etc. It might save some more or make it cheaper to get a bigger service...

you'll be glad when you have the upgrades done! It is some of the best money you can spend for the long term!

Best of luck

 

[GTO]

Electric:It's not a Hobby

Glad you got it sorted out.

 

[Brandon_K]

The welder has to be wired to a breaker that takes up TWO spots, if it's wired to a breaker that has two small handles but only takes one spot it will not work. It would be fine if they 120v circuits.

Actually, not entirely true. Many of GE's panels have "mini-stabs" next to the full size stabs on the bus, they make 2 pole breakers (THQP's) that hit both of the mini stabs, thus giving you a 240v 2pole breaker in only 1 space.