SnapOn Dual-80 drive
- Thread starter Ralf11
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d.mcfarland
Well-known member
Prepare to spend an amount of money you won't regret.
measuredtwice
Well-known member
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kcBml0h6t1g" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
chappys4life
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Not to side track too hard but is there any new replacement coming for the dual 80? Or is it still the standard for Snap On for a while still ?
Thanks, measuredtwice. So they concentrated on strength, low back-drag (“ratcheting torque”), and low-profile dimensions in combination with shallow Snap-on sockets.
Chappys4life: just my uninformed opinion, but I doubt Snap-on will replace the Dual 80 soon. These ratchets still win accolades and still sell well.
Chappys4life: just my uninformed opinion, but I doubt Snap-on will replace the Dual 80 soon. These ratchets still win accolades and still sell well.
measuredtwice
Well-known member
The pawl design was a major emphasis. I doubt the majority of their customer base ever saw that video. Most probably saw them when the truck showed up.
I dunno how you could improve it - maybe make the whole thing out of titanium?
OTOH, I used to think my older Snaps were xlnt. or the acme.
I hadn't expected ratchet technology to evolve, but I wuz wrong...
Anyway, the Dual 80 is strong, smooth and low back-drag all at the same time. The ratchet equivalent of 3-in-1 oil?
I am gonna replace my other ratchets and just ordered a lightly used 1/2 drive bent flex off of eBay.
The only fly in the ointment is that SnapOn for some reason known only to them has no 1/2" drive speeder style ratchet... maybe no sales potential with all the young kids using power ratchets these days.
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BrandoJames
Well-known member
Snap-on will probably increase the tooth count at some point. But with fine-tooth ratchets, there's always the problem of diminishing returns. Going from a 36 tooth coarse ratchet to a 72 fine-tooth is a big jump (10 degree swing arc to 5 degree swing arc). But after that, increasing tooth count doesn't buy much.
Let's say Snap-on releases a 120 tooth ratchet. As far a swing arc, there's not a lot of difference between 80 tooth (4.5 degree arc) versus 120 tooth (3.0 degree arch). For most people, the 1.5 degree difference would be negligible. Of course, Snap-on may improve other aspects of the ratchet, but we'll see.
BiggityBen
Well-known member
every Snap On Dual 80 i have has had issues with the ball detent coming off. otherwise they are the best ratchets i've ever used. i can't think of a way to improve them now that they have all kinds of handles, locking flex, etc, already available.
chappys4life
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Totally get it was probably not being replaced but just curious. Love my dual 80’s so no complaints.
Bigblue&Goldie
Well-known member
I'd be curious what ratchets look like in 10yrs from now. I feel like they are so good now there is much room for improvement. Even if SnapOn or Matco came out with a new ratchet design, my existing ones are so good that I can't see myself replacing them.
Fedwrench
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I think the dual 80 design really shines in 3/8 drive but, not so much in 1/4 or 1/2 drive but, that's just me. 
I think the dual 80 design really shines in 3/8 drive but, not so much in 1/4 or 1/2 drive but, that's just me.
why?
can you give us specifics?
Fedwrench
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I haven't had a smooth T72 series 1/4 drive ratchet. I gave up after 5. They always seem to bind in one spot or another. I also prefer a recessed direction switch and a thinner head. I still have them. I just don't use them much. I'll probably dispose of them at my retirement sale.
As for half inch drive, i had the early models with the screws on the underside that would loosen a bit despite the factory thread locker. I also felt the ratcheting action was a bit clunky too. loved the handle length and thickness. Don't get me wrong, i feel the ratchets are super strong but, they just weren't my cup of tea. Your results may vary.
The Dual 80 series appeared in response to Matco coming out with their 60 tooth ratchet series, which later became their 88 series and the tooth count wars began.
It's strange, but I agree with him - I kind went down the ratchet-hole and it seems like not all pawl/mechanism designs scale well, and smaller is harder to achieve. I guess it is harder to avoid things like backdrag when there's not a lot of mass in the mechanism, and making things small with precision can also be challenging.
FWIW, most of my favorite ratchets are 3/8" - I'm guessing that because it's probably the most-common size for so many different tasks that the designers start there and scale up/down to 1/2" & 1/4", and it doesn't always translate perfectly and sometimes don't translate well. (the exception to the 3/8" rule is my 1/4" Icon swivel, which is awesome)
For me, 1/4" ratchets seem to lean toward clicky and often have backdrag, 1/2" generally feel kinda... nothing. I mainly rely on them to be strong.
But 3/8" does so many different things getting the feel/weight/handle/etc. right is important.
I'm almost certainly over-thinking it.
chappys4life
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- Apr 30, 2008
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It’s funny I have the opposite I think my thlf72 is smoother than my Fhlf80a. It might be time for a rebuild on it. It’s smooth but the ball to release sockets is real sticky.
Scaling.... hhhhmmmm.... ummmm
well there would be the size - friction in the threads - of the fasteners that 1/4 vs. 3//8 vs. 1/2" are typically used on
then there is the scaling of inertial forces & friction in different sized pawls/gears in the ratchet itself for the different drive sizes
Things do scale with size - ants lifting huge loads, flies can stick to the ceiling b/c air is like molasses to them, etc. but I dunno if scaling of forces would matter over the size range here. I could maybe look up some stuff and do some calculations, but it would make my head hurt...
well there would be the size - friction in the threads - of the fasteners that 1/4 vs. 3//8 vs. 1/2" are typically used on
then there is the scaling of inertial forces & friction in different sized pawls/gears in the ratchet itself for the different drive sizes
Things do scale with size - ants lifting huge loads, flies can stick to the ceiling b/c air is like molasses to them, etc. but I dunno if scaling of forces would matter over the size range here. I could maybe look up some stuff and do some calculations, but it would make my head hurt...
I haven't had a smooth T72 series 1/4 drive ratchet. I gave up after 5. They always seem to bind in one spot or another. I also prefer a recessed direction switch and a thinner head. I still have them. I just don't use them much. I'll probably dispose of them at my retirement sale.
As for half inch drive, i had the early models with the screws on the underside that would loosen a bit despite the factory thread locker. I also felt the ratcheting action was a bit clunky too. loved the handle length and thickness. Don't get me wrong, i feel the ratchets are super strong but, they just weren't my cup of tea. Your results may vary.
The Dual 80 series appeared in response to Matco coming out with their 60 tooth ratchet series, which later became their 88 series and the tooth count wars began.
I think they must have fixed that. My SHX80B feels even better than my FHX80A.
davethorik
Well-known member
I have one Dual 80 in every drive size. TX72, FLF80, SLL80A.
I have gotten them all on the cheap secondhand. I prefer Cornwell chrome handle, not a big fan of Snappy's. The ratchets are nice and I wanted to try one of each size.
The TX72 was totally seized, got it basically free with a lot of stuff I bought. I had to give it a full rebuild, drill out pivot screw, etc. Now, rebuilt, it is very smooth. I'm not the biggest fan of Snap-on's locking flex, I prefer Armstrong/Matco. But this is a sweet little ratchet. Maybe I got a good one, it doesn't bind and has low back drag.
The FLF80 has been used a lot, was filthy, but is butter smooth after cleaning and superlube. Nice ratchet, I just find myself grabbing other options in 3/8 before this one.
The SLL80A is my favorite of the 3. It is 24" long fixed head. It has a larger diameter handle, curiously the grip portion was not scaled up so it looks dinky although this is just cosmetic. This ratchet has the Rock of Gibraltar, brick **** house feel. It is very smooth, almost too smooth.
I have gotten them all on the cheap secondhand. I prefer Cornwell chrome handle, not a big fan of Snappy's. The ratchets are nice and I wanted to try one of each size.
The TX72 was totally seized, got it basically free with a lot of stuff I bought. I had to give it a full rebuild, drill out pivot screw, etc. Now, rebuilt, it is very smooth. I'm not the biggest fan of Snap-on's locking flex, I prefer Armstrong/Matco. But this is a sweet little ratchet. Maybe I got a good one, it doesn't bind and has low back drag.
The FLF80 has been used a lot, was filthy, but is butter smooth after cleaning and superlube. Nice ratchet, I just find myself grabbing other options in 3/8 before this one.
The SLL80A is my favorite of the 3. It is 24" long fixed head. It has a larger diameter handle, curiously the grip portion was not scaled up so it looks dinky although this is just cosmetic. This ratchet has the Rock of Gibraltar, brick **** house feel. It is very smooth, almost too smooth.
Today I received the dual-80 FR80 ratchet I ordered from Snap-on, and I am not impressed with the high back drag. It's my first new Snap-on ratchet in 40 years, and will replace my very old 20T SO ratchet. Does it need breaking in?
Back drag is much higher than on the $60 Koken 72T ratchet I bought 2 weeks ago. It's much higher than the back drag on my new fine tooth $32 Tekton flex head ratchet.
Lucid Moments
Well-known member
Do I remember hearing somewhere that Bahco actually developed the dual 80 mechanism and Snap-On bought Bahco out? Or is that my imagination?
I do feel like they break in - my newer FL80 wasn't as smooth as my well-used F80, but it's beginning to even out. Could be my imagination, but...
break it in with a cordless drill - mine changed a lot
but I doubt it will ever match a Ko-ken
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
They do need "spun in" a bit. I recall one driver putting the ratchets on a deep socket and spinning them for 30 seconds or so in each direction to get them moving better after a rebuild.
measuredtwice
Well-known member
Did you try disassembling, flushing and lube? Comparing backdrag on any ratchet with Ko-ken is not really reasonable. Ko-ken has ridiculously low backdrag. Ko-ken use extremely weak springs.
The inventors work at Snap-On in Kenosha, WI --> https://patents.google.com/patent/US8720308B2/
Maybe you were mistaken because a few Bahco ratchets use the same mechanism.
My first dual 80 has a long 3/8 flex with a soft handle. When I first used it I wasn't super impressed. The more I used it the better the action got. After a month, it is one of my lowest back ground for a 3/8. I bought two more 3/8s model and while they're smooth, the back drag is a little more. My thinking is that they are shorter ratchets and don't break in as easy.
Short version, use it and it'll get better each time you use it.
Ricky Joe
Well-known member
I actually got the 80 tooth under protest back about 2010 or 2011. I had a quick release that I wanted repaired and the dealer gave me the 80. I like it, subsequently bought the half inch drive model, but do miss the quick release feature. I have an old fine tooth Craftsman that I use more just because of this. So, my suggestion is that Snap-On could improve the ratchet with quick release.
measuredtwice
Well-known member
Snap-On makes quick release dual 80. Here's the 1/2 drive--> https://shop.snapon.com/categories/Quick-Release-Ratchet-(1-2")/683068
And here's 3/8 --> https://shop.snapon.com/categories/Quick-Release-Ratchets-(3-8")/681231
XxToolAholicxX
Well-known member
I got mine when they did not put USA on them.
Yup. I bought a flex head 3/8" then. Was around $40 with my discount.
I have the exact same one but std teeth count as well. I hate when I grab it by mistake for a tight spot. Feels like there's inches of swing between teeth!
Oh... don't forget said ratchet on the flatbed of a truck, it then snow 6", shovel snow into driveway, and then snowblow ratchet.
No, not yet. A brand new $130 ratchet should be properly lubed and assembled.
I read in another thread that someone greatly improved back drag on their SO ratchet by removing one of the dust seals:
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375794&page=2
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measuredtwice
Well-known member
That's the first thing I do with every ratchet. This is a mechanics forum after all --haha! Not that it's important but none of my Ko-ken ratchets had any lube at all. My 24 tooth Ko-kens were a bit clunky until lubed. The springs were really light though. Ko-ken specifically mentions the light springs and low drag in their advertising. Other manufacturers tend to use stronger springs. If it is something important to you, you can swap out the springs for weaker springs on a lot of ratchets. Never tried it with a dual 80. The old 36 tooth Snap-On ratchets had really strong springs and I've replaced the springs or shortened the springs when it suited my preferences. Snap-On does lube the ratchets but I always flush it out and do it myself. No complaints about my ratchets. I've never felt the need to remove any seals. If you appreciate engineering, take a look at the patent linked above. The design is clever. I do wish it were a little thinner but it's a great design.
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The Bahco ratchets using the same mechanism would tend to support that there was a transaction at some point (e.g. maybe Bahco was allowed to use the design as part of the deal). The patent process can take years to complete, so if SO acquired the IP, it would file in their name at the end of the process.
I will pull off the cover and inspect it. If it has been lubed with grease from the factory, I will flush it out and replace with light machine oil. My tool boxes are in an unheated garage, and in winter that can be a problem for ratchets lubed with grease, as solidified grease prevents full engagement of the pawl with the gear, resulting in broken teeth (I am speaking from personal experience on this
)measuredtwice
Well-known member
I don't know the details. But if I recall correctly, Snap-On dual 80 was out for several years before the mechanism was used by Bahco. It is odd and must be an interesting story. The older Bahco ratchets with the same part numbers were just cheapos. Those part numbers got a huge upgrade. Unfortunately, Bahco doesn't seem to be making more.
The assignee is Snap-On but each of the inventors is listed on the patent and they seem to work or worked for Snap-On in Kenosha.
I will pull off the cover and inspect it. If it has been lubed with grease from the factory, I will flush it out and replace with light machine oil. My tool boxes are in an unheated garage, and in winter that can be a problem for ratchets lubed with grease, as solidified grease prevents full engagement of the pawl with the gear, resulting in broken teeth (I am speaking from personal experience on this
Whatever works best for you. For whatever it may be worth, Snap-On ships the rebuild kits with a bit of Super Lube.