Ground source switch. . . how much did you save?

[dirttracker18]

Ground source heating. . . how much did you save?

We are thinking that ground source might be a better option for us as we are currently on propane and it is very expensive.
For those that have made the switch, can you tell me what you saved. What were you using, what did that cost you and what are you at now for monthly heating?
We would like to get an idea of what kind of savings people have seen with the switch.
I know there are many factors involved that need to be considered but I would just like to hear some real life savings stories.
Thanks
Doug

 

[dirttracker18]

An addition to the above. We want to go ground source with the house but I am running in floor in the garage with a tank system. I would want to run to the shop and supplement the hot water tank as well as the house.
Thanks,

 

[jkeyser14]

Our bill is 1/3 of what it was with oil heat. Go check out http://forum.geoexchange.org

 

[dirttracker18]

Interesting forum with lots of good info and links. Thanks!

 

[nate379]

What exactly is a ground source switch? I have never heard of it and neither has google.

 

[jkeyser14]

I believe he meant switch to ground source heat pump.

 

[dirttracker18]

Yes, anyone who has switched from another heating source to a ground source system. I have been able to read a lot about the system and the benefits but it would be nice to haer some real world stories of success.

 

[dirttracker18]

Only one person? No one else has a ground source success story?
That kinda scares me away a little. I have searched all over the net and am having a lot of trouble finding actual customers that have switched and saved money. Lots of talk about it but very few actual success stories.

 

[tdkkart]

Have you talked to anyone about prices yet?? What are you getting for numbers?? Everything I've ever seen for Ground source systems is in the $10-$20,000 range.

Considering that my utility company records say that I've only used $1125 worth of heating gas in the last 18 months, even if the heat pump dropped my month cost to ZERO, it would still take 10-15 years to pay it off, at which time most of it would be due for replacement.

 

[dirttracker18]

$4300 in propane this year and it was a mild winter. That does not include the electrical cost to heat the water for the radiant in the garage. If the reports are true then I shold be able to cut my bill by close to 2/3. That would mean a pay back of 7 or 8 years.
Cost at rough estimates (just talking very rough numbers) are in the $18 to 25 k range. I am hoping to get some real estimates and cost analysis in the next month.

But really that is why I am asking. Geothermal designers make some pretty big claims and I want to hear some real world stories.

 

[Ezzie]

During construction of my 2000 sq. ft. heated portion of the shop, I did a lot of research on ground source vs. gas fired as a heat source to drive the radiant floor heating system I installed. I looked at several different manufacturers and talked to a lot of contractors. I could find no clear evidence that going ground source had any significant cost savings over just using a gas fired boiler. The problem comes from insufficient empirical data on true operating costs over an extended period of time (25-30 yrs.). The initial installation costs as well as equipment costs are very high since there is limited knowledge and competition out there. The other thing I found is that none of the geothermal guys seem to factor ongoing equipment maintenance costs into their economic models. The Waterfurnaces, etc. are very costly to repair/replace from what I can gather.

In the end, I elected to just install a natural gas fired boiler since I am convinced it is going to be an economical and clean heat source during the rest of my expected lifetime. But since you are on propane - that could present a better economic justification.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Re: Ground source heating. . . how much did you save?

If my choices (like yours) are power or propane I would choose both.

As an alternative to a vastly expensive, complex, and failure prone ground source heat pump system, I would go with a "so-called" hybrid system utilizing a high efficiency air-source heat pump and propane furnace for backup.

With these systems, the air-source heat pump handles all the cooling needs of the house and the lion's share of the heating. However, when the temperature outside drops into the sub-freezing range or the homeowner decides to crank up the t-stat (requireing more heat than the air-source heat pump can easily generate) the back up furnace comes in and takes over for the heat pump RATHER than utilizing the resistance heating strips a heat pump would usually use.

This has several advantages over a ground source system.

1. It should much cheaper to install.
2. It eliminates the ground loop and the potential of ground loop failure, which I have seen all too often.
3. If your heat pump fails in the winter...you at least can use your propane furnace until you can get your heat pump fixed...which will cost you some...but not too much. I've seen multiple situations of ground source heat pump failure where they have not been able to replace the ground loop for MONTHS (because it's the middle of the winter when it fails), they've had to rely on the emergency heat strips (resistance heat only) to get through the winter, and have lost back to the electric utility every thing they saved over years during that period until they can get it fixed.
4. Air source heat pumps have gotten a lot better in the last several years, wiping out a lot of the ground source heat pump efficiency advantage.

On your domestic water heating needs and for your radiant heat you have a couple of better choices than a radiant electric water heater or boiler. A propane boiler (or water heater) would be cheaper to operate. They make electric air source heat pump water heaters too. They are f'in expensive...but if the geothermal price seems reasonable to you...it won't be nearly that much.

The responding poster that mentions natural gas is correct. Natural gas is so cheap right now, that if it's available it's a no brainer. Propane though is running about twice the cost of natural.

Remember this...anywhere you have electrical resistance heating you need to target it for elimination. That's what kills you. Heat generated by a heat pump (air source!) costs 1/3 to 1/4 what electric resistance heat costs. Any time your emergency strips or backup resistance heat is kicked on, you are using electric base board heat, an electric space heater, or a standard electric water heater, you are just killing yourself.

Good luck!

Phil

 

[dirttracker18]

I actually got a chance last night to meet two different people using geothermal in my area. One was built with the house the other was an install later. Both are extramally happy with there systems and have had no problems. Coincidently both used the same installer and he is the one that has been recommended often to me. Both home owners have seen substaintial savings. This is particularily true of the house that switched later as he has something to compare to.
Both have bills that are around a 3rd of what I am paying now.

Food for thought. I am going to set up a time for an estimate and try to find some more people with which to make comparisons.
Thanks all for your input so far.
More on both sides would be great!

 

[jkeyser14]

Have you talked to anyone about prices yet?? What are you getting for numbers?? Everything I've ever seen for Ground source systems is in the $10-$20,000 range.

Considering that my utility company records say that I've only used $1125 worth of heating gas in the last 18 months, even if the heat pump dropped my month cost to ZERO, it would still take 10-15 years to pay it off, at which time most of it would be due for replacement.

There's a federal tax credit of 30%, no maximum, plus there's often state incentives. That alone saved us an additional 35% of the price. Combined with the fact that there's no natural gas available on our street, so we are limited to electric or oil heat, it was a no brainer. I agree it doesn't make sense for every person out there. For us, being on oil heat and with the federal tax credit our payback time will be approximately 5 years.

 

[dirttracker18]

No federal tax credits here in Canada. They just cancelled the grant program. There is a provincial grant available of about $4300 though.
Same as above, no NG available so propane or electric. Either option is very costly.

 

[Ord]

We are about to get the ground source heat pump installed for our house - they are putting it in next week. We were lucky that we got the EcoEnergy audit done before the program was canceled so we still get the federal and provincial grant.

Not sure which brand you are looking at, but this week WaterFurnace Canada announced a $1200 rebate on some of their models.

We're in a 100 year old farmhouse which is electrically heated and not well insulated. If we save half the electricity for heating the unit should pay for itself in 10 years, and if it performs as well as the HVAC contractor claims it will be more like 6 years.

A friend of ours installed a similar unit and he's very happy, says it's the first time since he lived in his house that they can actually keep it warm in winter.

Unfortunately I can't give you any real savings numbers until next year.

 

[jkeyser14]

We're in a 100 year old farmhouse which is electrically heated and not well insulated. If we save half the electricity for heating the unit should pay for itself in 10 years, and if it performs as well as the HVAC contractor claims it will be more like 6 years.

From early research that I did before getting my system, I remember finding out that geothermal is about 4x more efficient than electric resistance heating. You should see a drastic decrease in your utility bill during the heating months.

 

[51rider]

May I suggest you look closely at air source heat pumps. They are a fraction of the cost to install and they work!

Where I work we have two buildings, both 4 story. One an early 70's precast concrete panel structure with 'conventional ' gas boiler & radiator heat. The other, currently in 12 month defect period utilising ground source heat pump technology to provide heating & cooling.

Without going into too much detail as we could be going to litigation, the system doesn't work.

In a domestic situation they do seem to be more effective & I can point you in the direction of a few sucessful installs if you wish. Drop me a pm.

 

[MScott]

May I suggest you look closely at air source heat pumps. They are a fraction of the cost to install and they work!QUOTE]

Air source heat pumps will only work efficiently when the ambient temperature is above feezing. My brother had one and it worked great during the spring and fall, and also was excellent as an air conditioner, but during our Ontario winters it did little and he was forced to use his back up heat most of the winter.
By contrast, I had a ground source Water Furnace that supplied heat even when the temperature dropped to -40 (C or F) during some cold winter nights. I haven't replied to the OP's original question because, to be honest, I never kept track. We had replaced an oil furnace with the HP, but we also used wood so it was difficult to quantify the difference. I do know that we didn't have any more oil bills, and our electric bill did not seem to increase substantially. The switch, however, was 20 years ago and electrical costs were much less then. Since I no longer live in the house I can't comment on current costs.

 

[russlaferrera]

We went with a "Water furnace system" about 10 years ago Our heating/cooling bills did not change . We average $120 per month for a 3000 sq ft ranch, in central Virginia. Our home is so air tight we installed a air to air exchanger.

 

[DEnd]

May I suggest you look closely at air source heat pumps. They are a fraction of the cost to install and they work!QUOTE]

Air source heat pumps will only work efficiently when the ambient temperature is above feezing. My brother had one and it worked great during the spring and fall, and also was excellent as an air conditioner, but during our Ontario winters it did little and he was forced to use his back up heat most of the winter.

There are at least two air source heat pumps that work down to zero (F not C), and are also extremely effecient. If you live in an area where you aren't gonna really see sub zero F temps then these two units should be on your list to check out. I can think of their names off the top of my head but they were in an article in Fine Homebuilding recently (maybe their annual HOUSES issue?)

 

[MScott]

There are at least two air source heat pumps that work down to zero (F not C), and are also extremely effecient. If you live in an area where you aren't gonna really see sub zero F temps then these two units should be on your list to check out. I can think of their names off the top of my head but they were in an article in Fine Homebuilding recently (maybe their annual HOUSES issue?)

I'm sure there have been improvements in the technology of air source pumps since my experience with them, but the OP lives in Thunder Bay, Ontario so his temperatures are even colder than those of my area which is South East Ontario. I'm sure he experiences winter temperatures well below zero F on a regular basis and unless he has very good and economical back-up heat the air source heat pump is still not a viable option IMHO. For other, more temperate areas, however, they may well be worth looking at.

Just my opinion....I have been wrong before.

 

[gfd_703]

I am on my 2nd water source heat pump. Put the first one in when I built the house. It lasted 17 years with one service call to replace a water valve. ( cost less than $100 including labor) I priced air to air units as they have gotten more efficient in recent years. The cost to replace the unit was going to be higher going with air than water due to having to run larger electrical service to an air to air unit. To make a long story short, water is the only way to heat and cool. My unit is built by a company called Florida heat Pump. They built my original and I saw no reason to change after the service I received from the original. As far as operating cost here in Tennessee my electric is on even pay where my bills are averaged for the year and for a 1700 sq ft house my total bill runs less than $150.00 a month. This includes the pool,hot tub,and widow a/c on the shop.

 

[dirttracker18]

MScot is right in that we have very cold winters here. We can sometimes go for weeks and just barely climb above 0 F during the warmest part of the day.
I do not think an air source system is a viable option here. Even ground source will need to be set up different. My understanding is that around here you need to go down 11 feet at least for the loops if done horizontal whereas I have seen it mentioned 3 to 5 feet in other areas is sufficient.

 

[JCoggin]

I installed a WaterFurnace Envision Series geothermal unit in January of 2009. My previous system was a Rheem Classic 90 natural gas furnace with a 5-ton A/C unit, maybe a 15 SEER if I am not mistaken. I was getting raped on my natural gas so I had to do something. My geo unit has cut my energy cost almost in half and I am warmer in the winter and MUCH cooler in the summer. I opted not to install backup heat strips and had no need for them despite a very cold winter, many below freezing days and low teens at night. At the same time I installed an 85 gallon Rheem Marathon Water Heater with a 50 gallon preheat tank which I heat with the DHW desuperheater on my geo unit. I spent ~ $18K on the whole project and I would do it again tomorrow, no question about it...

JC